You can normally find the K20A2 complete swap online for around $4-5k, which, bone stock is 200whp at the crank and like 140-150 tq [not sure on the tq numbers]. Complete swap is everything except the mounts, which are about $5-600 brand new from HASport
CLICK ME
Last edited by KPowerEP3; 09-01-2007 at 11:24 AM. Reason: LINK
^ Pretty much.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
wow, so much misinformation in this thread.
Stock clutch for 240-250whp? wont last a week.
B16s have the same gearing as ITR trannys. CERTAIN year ITR trans had 4.7FDs. but those are hard to find.
Cam journals being off? uhhhh the cam journals cant be "set", and in a honda head, they really cant be machined either.
no the "assembly and machine work" part im talking about is PRECISION work. KNOW your bearing clearances, know your ring gaps, KNOW how to degree your camshafts in. If you dont know what any of that means, high whp NA motors arent for you. just go turbo. otherwise all your doing is halfassing a build.
Not many people on here know how to build an NA car an few have had success. Id take what you hear in here lightly. Truth is, very FEW have even made over 200whp, and only 3 people i know of have made over 230whp locally. check out my thread stickied in the the ALL MOTOR
KEEP IT SIMPLE, Vteckidds Guide to NA
or check Honda-tech.com in the All Motor forum.
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well i do know that i will need a good clutch. even if i could get away with a stocker i probably wouldnt use it anyways.Originally Posted by Mr. KiDD
for now im just gathering information.... ill cross the bridges when i get to them. but you bet your ass that ill be #4 on the list of 230+ hp motors
KNOW your bearing clearances, know your ring gaps, KNOW how to degree your camshafts in. - i know what these mean but i dont know the spec's are. ive got help from my dad if i dont know/cant figure it out.
generally how much hp is lost from the motor to the ground. 10-15%
im not one to half ass stuff, ill ask for help if needed.
Last edited by SL65AMG; 09-01-2007 at 07:52 PM.
I know multiple Type-R owners putting down 350whp on stock Type-R clutches, and many all motor guys running 230whp through their stock clutches, and they do fine.
I gave the SPECIFIC information about this. All USDM Type-Rs ('97-'01) came with 4.400FD, JDM Type-Rs from '96-'97 had the same 4.400FD as all '97-'01 USDM Type-Rs. In '98, Honda changed the JDM Type-R final drive to 4.785FD.
How is that misinformation? And they're not hard to find at all... Any Honda clip/swap/parts carrier can get this transmission with no issue. You can still buy them brand new, how can something be hard to find if you can still buy it brand new? It's not exactly a high in demand part, it's not a Ferby, or a Tickle-Me-Elmo, the shit's not going to be sold out because the manufacturer cannot keep up with demand.
I hate to come off like an ass, but you called my advice/information misinformation, and it's not. It's not like I'm in here telling him that with just a JUN head package, he'd be good to rev to 13,000RPM, and he'd make at least 275whp or some shit. I'm giving pretty solid advice.
200whp isn't that hard to hit. A head package/proper CR with high quality bolt ons would do that just fine. Hell, Dave_B on Honda-Tech made 196whp on a completely stock JDM Type-R engine, with an SMS-P header/exhaust, Mugen intake, and tuned with Hondata. Granted, they're excellent bolt ons, but they're still just bolt ons.
If a stock Type-R engine with high quality bolt ons can generate near 200whp, a decently built LS/VTEC with a nice head package and high quality bolt ons can hit a higher number than that.
I'm not just disagreeing with you, for the sake of disagreeing. I just do not agree with what you're saying in the bolded areas.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
*sigh*
here's a dyno for inspiration man. don't let all the technical crap [as important as it may be] take the fun out of your build. And that's what's important here. Stick to the Honda encylopedia that is HT and you'll be fine.
The dyno sheet belongs to a DC owned by Jeff Taylor, it's on Toda's website, and made 244whp all motor. it was however bored over to 84.5mm with ITB's, Toda C's, and 13.3:1 comp...
-jonathan
Last edited by DB1_77; 09-02-2007 at 04:41 AM.
[/URL]
Jesus Christ is my Savior
Under hrad driving conditions, no way, wont last a week. Ask BlackR on hereI know multiple Type-R owners putting down 350whp on stock Type-R clutches, and many all motor guys running 230whp through their stock clutches, and they do fine.
Try calling an ordering one, almost impossible to get a 4.78 FD tranny nowadays. they are $$ too. I tried to get one from Hmotors an it was $1400. im not saying they are impossible, just HARder to find. remember i am in the business, ive tried to locate them before.How is that misinformation? And they're not hard to find at all... Any Honda clip/swap/parts carrier can get this transmission with no issue. You can still buy them brand new, how can something be hard to find if you can still buy it brand new? It's not exactly a high in demand part, it's not a Ferby, or a Tickle-Me-Elmo, the shit's not going to be sold out because the manufacturer cannot keep up with demand.
i woudlnt say that.. I'm giving pretty solid advice.
How many have you done? believe everything on HT?200whp isn't that hard to hit. A head package/proper CR with high quality bolt ons would do that just fine. Hell, Dave_B on Honda-Tech made 196whp on a completely stock JDM Type-R engine, with an SMS-P header/exhaust, Mugen intake, and tuned with Hondata. Granted, they're excellent bolt ons, but they're still just bolt ons.
again, how many have YOU done? your assuming alot.If a stock Type-R engine with high quality bolt ons can generate near 200whp, a decently built LS/VTEC with a nice head package and high quality bolt ons can hit a higher number than that.
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Where is Dave_B located? I bet its not the hot & humid southeast is it? What fuel was he running too...wasn't pump gas and probably wasn't 100 octane either. I've been around many 200whp engines, from Hondata to MoTec running the SMS header, stock IM, & j's racing intake. I know what's involved to get 200+whp and it won't happen around here with a stock head
Then to get that extra 30whp as mike mentioned...hahaha...good luck.
see you know what im talking about man! i knew someone would come throughWhere is Dave_B located? I bet its not the hot & humid southeast is it? What fuel was he running too...wasn't pump gas and probably wasn't 100 octane either. I've been around many 200whp engines, from Hondata to MoTec running the SMS header, stock IM, & j's racing intake. I know what's involved to get 200+whp and it won't happen around here with a stock head
Then to get that extra 30whp as mike mentioned...hahaha...good luck.
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and your best bet for a tranny is Hmotorsonline.com
i bought my B16 tranny WITH kaaz LSD for $1050 SHIPPED
clutch wise go with a standard pressure plate competition clutch stage 4. you dont need a stiff pressure plate, but you want a grabby disk
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ive been all through that site, i go there pretty frequently actually, but i havent found any trannies. is it something that comes and goes and isnt a stocked item.
was that a one time thing?
i think im gonna buy an entire b16 swap and just part out what i dont need. (block, Int. Man., Exh. Man...etc.) but i want that LSD.
you have to CALL hmotorsonline.com and ask for steve, he doesnt list the trannies for sale on the website
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thanks
average drivetrain loss is 13%
an no offense, unless your dad has built a few honda motors, theres more to it than that.
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i know.... but dont discourage me.... hes built many motors...but no hondas
this guys talking about making 230whp. im just trying to let him know its not easy. Only 4 people have made over 230whp locally
Me-B series
Streetstuff-B series
Chunky-Kseries
Jay-Kseries
a stock clutch will NOT HOLD 230whp, sorry, ive smoked Competition Clutch stage 3s with 190whp.
i see alot of "ive seen this on honda-tech and i saw so an so make these numbers".
i dont see alot of "this is what my motor made''
I know im coming off as a dick, but ive been there, ive had 2 big NA builds. ive consulted on numerous other builds. ive seen guys build crazy motors that dont make any power. ive seen the "sposed to make 230whp motors " make 200whp.
Ive seen the 200whp motors make 180whp.
Im being encouraging in a glass is half empty kinda way. 230whp is a HARD NUMBER to hit, and it takes alot of skill.
be prepared not to make your goal
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i made 202 on an oem bottom end and a fully built head and rmf header..
GECKO SQUAD MEMBER
MSS RACING REPRESENTA.....
the saga continues....
<--- Honda-Tech goon. I love that site.
While it may not be easy per se, it is not impossible with quality components. I say 200whp is an easy mark to hit, 230whp is a bit more difficult, and 250whp takes just as much more.
Damn, how did you do that?
No, I know people PERSONALLY who are doing what I'm talking about. But you're right, I have used a lot of "Blah blah blah on Honda-Tech did this that and the other."
However, I'm starting my all motor build in a few months here, I'll be sure to keep you posted. It's a rather simple build, I'll send you my Honda-Tech "build up" thread.
Haha, nah man, we're just going back and forth about a vast subject, I'm not taking it personal.
I like being proved wrong, that's how I learn.
All motor is touchy like that.
Hell, my stock Type-R with TODA header/Omnipower testpipe/DC Sports exhaust/AEM 3" CAI made 157whp... Granted, it was literally 110degrees out, I was a quart and a half low on oil (I forgot to check before it went up), and I was blowing blue like a Smurf. But for the times I run at the track, and the cars I beat/stay next to, I was estimating 180whp or so. But the dyno said 157whp. That's when I decided it was time to rebuild/mildly build.
I agree with you. I never said 230whp is an easy number to hit. I did, however, say that 200whp is rather easy.
Oh shit, BlackR's on here? I didn't know that.
$1,400 isn't too shabby for a JDM transmission. They can still be purchased brand new, I can't remember which user on Honda-Tech has a hookup at a Japan Honda dealership, but he can get them for $2,000 shipped. Which is about what you'll find a brand new USDM Type-R transmission for brand new Stateside. I've seen them as cheap as $1,600 brand new from a dealership.
Oh come on now, it's not like I'm telling him off the wall shit.
Nope, sure don't believe everything on Honda-Tech. But I know a lot of people who have done them personally... God that sounds so stupid, but no, I do not have any PERSONAL "I HAVE DONE THIS" experience, I won't lie and say I do.
Zero.
Dave's located in Florida.Where is Dave_B located? I bet its not the hot & humid southeast is it? What fuel was he running too...wasn't pump gas and probably wasn't 100 octane either. I've been around many 200whp engines, from Hondata to MoTec running the SMS header, stock IM, & j's racing intake. I know what's involved to get 200+whp and it won't happen around here with a stock head
Then to get that extra 30whp as mike mentioned...hahaha...good luck.
I never said getting 230whp is easy. I said getting 200whp is easy, if it's done corrected.
Yeap, it's been done thousands of times over, it's definitely not impossible.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
Wow, that sounds like a lot of money for not as much power as you think it would give you...
again, yours was professionally assembled an made 10whp more than anyone elses motor locally that was similar
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where would i go about getting a header? i know RMF and Hytech are good but theyre about a grand..... theres gotta be something just as good for cheaper....
Then go turbo where a $300 header works and have this thread locked. You want quality that WILL produce results then you have to be willing to pay.
-or-
Just do like I do and search the forums forsale sections: importatlanta.com, honda-tech.com, team-integra.net, etc. etc. etc.....ebay.com, etc. etc. I guarantee you someone is selling a high quality header. Practically everything on my car was found on the forums/ebay: from my brand new b18c5, to cusco flywheel, Porsche calipers, stage III clutchmaster kit, OEM optional sideskirts, ITR ECU, obd2a to obd2b conversion harness, Honda ITR non-srs momo steering wheel...etc. It might takes weeks or even months but everything you could ever possibly want someone is going to have for sale somewhere...
Last edited by speedminded; 09-03-2007 at 01:26 PM.
why have the thread locked? and thanks for the advice.....
EF SQUAD FTMFW!!!!
it just doesnt seem like with a fully built bottom end and a fully built head and tuning out the ass that 230+ whp is all that hard to get..... but i guess thats just inexperience talking...
202whp in a lightweight Honda is moving out man.
A buddy of mine (Yes, yet another one of these examples. He's known as slodsm across the net) ran 12.4s with 207whp, in a fullweight '92 Civic.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
this thread will not turn into a pissing contest guys..... i think theres valuable information here and there is still more to come.... lets not ruin it.
Oh, we're not pissing at each other at all. Like I said, we're just going back and forth. No one's throwing insults, no one's personally attacking each other, it's just a good old fashion debate.
No one's taking it strongly.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
i know.... but you know how things go on IA.....
Nah, I don't really. I've only been here a week.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
oh. lol ok. it gets hairy real quick.
Nah, I think Mr. KiDD is more mature than that. If he were going to get shitty, he'd have done it already.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
yeah
There are tons of used high quality headers out there for sale.
Typical pricing:
TODA - $500-$700 pending on condition
SMS-P - $600-$750 pending on condition
Hytech - $550+ pending on condition
RMF Narrow - $350-$500 pending on condition
You can find a nice used header, for about 50-60% of the new cost. Just keep your eyes open.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
There are a few knock-offs on h-t now, but like what speedminded said u get what you pay for.
Honestly, I think you should take baby steps. Start with a LS or b16 swap then gradually build your motor up. Who knows, you might become satisfied with just bolt-ons.
yeah.... im sure that would be fine.
im sure youve heard the phrase "go big or go home" ...
thats just the kind of person i am. i dont wanna do something mediocre or small. id rather go big.... but maybe i should take your advice..... get a swap and then build a motor on the side....
EF SQUAD FTMFW!!!!
I agree with bigdare23... Honestly, I'm the type of person who likes to build up to a point, not just end up at the end result. I've got my Type-R, now it's got a TODA header, some nice bolt onts, a nice suspension, and I'm ready to build the head. After I get satisfied with that power, I'll build the bottom end, etc.
I honestly think you should at least TRY starting out small. You'd be surprised how much fun simplicity is.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
im sure its great....
the engine is going last.... or at least after this stuff
im ordering my exhaust this week.... FINALLY!!!!
and then im saving for the suspension/wheels/tires next.....
EF SQUAD FTMFW!!!!
What exhaust system?
Myself personally, I have a DC Sports 2.3/8", it sounds absolutely awesome. However, for my power goals, it would hold me back a bit. I'm going with an SMS-P 2.5", it will suffice for pretty much anything I want to do with the car.
I like your plan... Get the car READY for the power first.
... That is, unless you're baller enough to just buy every single damn part at the same time, haha. I'm not quite that baller, so I have to build in stages.
A Type-R and a Type-SH.
im not that baller either. i really wouldnt expect the engine( if i am goin to stick to my original plan) to be done till this time next year. it would definitely be a saving endeavor.
invidia N1.... its about $450 plus shipping
2.39" (60mm)...i guess that 2.5" pipe and 4" (100mm) tip....
EF SQUAD FTMFW!!!!
That's a decent exhaust (even tho it has the ricer slant)
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