So who told you I was a christian? Jeez.. lighten up alreadyOriginally Posted by b18hatch
Besides.. whenever someone (be it a christian, catholic.. whatever) tries to help point someone to the "light" we get 1000+ posts of "see?? that is why I hate christians... trying to force religion on us !!"
Damned if you do, and damned if you don't I guess....
I got free clear tails with my ride.....
see...this is what I mean, freakin' athiests pushing their beliefs on us Christians....
sound stupid doesn't it...oddly this happens more than the opposite.
catholics were christian last time i checked
Val for President
nah they changed that yesterday...
i guess i didnt get the memo
Val for President
dont catholics focus more on the Mother Mary than Jesus? I'm not sure, just asking.
im not sure but i dont think so
the pope is the leader of the catholic church
Val for President
SWING!!!! AND A MISS!!!! That's a great THOUGHT. But try to get a NURSE to consult a Haynes manual... THAT is more inline w/ trying to get a non-believer (or some1 who is undecided) to read the bible. You asked CAR ENTHUSIASTS to consult that manual... of COURSE we would b/c we are ALREADY enthusiasts! A nurse will PAY Pep Boys $100 to switch out her battery b/c the manual means nothing to her. Typical "devout follower" response. The BOTTOM LINE is *Jesus performed MIRACLES and did great works in order to get followers. Either he is DEAD, or he does not want to "convince" todays people that he is real. There is even a scripture that says w/out WORKS faith is dead! So why have faith in something/some1 where there is not "work" being performed?
Last edited by BABY J; 07-25-2006 at 03:07 PM.
"I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."
J makes a point....the bible means nothing to those who don't believe in it, like never never land.
edited my previous post --> scroll up!
"I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."
work is being performed, you're just not seeing it or acknowledging it as His work. Some call it luck, coincidence, and miricles. I've seen things with my own eyes happens that proves that God exists, but it would be pointless for me to tell you and have you accept it. You still wouldn't believe, and it probably wouldn't be enough to sway you to think twice. If you want God to show Himself to you, just ask. I think I mentioned that before.
Is there really anything to lose when coming to Christ?
So, hmmm... let's say I'm MUSLIM. I tell you to refer to the manual (the Quran) and educate yourself and turn from your silly Christian ways. Based on what you just said this should work right? You will learn the "truth" and convert to what's REALLY real... ISLAM!
See where your error is?
"I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."
Just like the nurse that can't change her own battery, a non-believer remains a non-believer as long as he/she sees fit to learn otherwise.SWING!!!! AND A MISS!!!! That's a great THOUGHT. But try to get a NURSE to consult a Haynes manual... THAT is more inline w/ trying to get a non-believer (or some1 who is undecided) to read the bible. You asked CAR ENTHUSIASTS to consult that manual... of COURSE we would b/c we are ALREADY enthusiasts! A nurse will PAY Pep Boys $100 to switch out her battery b/c the manual means nothing to her. Typical "devout follower" response. The BOTTOM LINE is *Jesus performed MIRACLES and did great works in order to get followers. Either he is DEAD, or he does not want to "convince" todays people that he is real. There is even a scripture that says w/out WORKS faith is dead! So why have faith in something/some1 where there is not "work" being performed?
In other words, you keep saying that people AREN'T convinced. I'm telling you there are far MORE people who ARE than aren't. Therefore, to THEM they have gotten to a stage in their life and beliefs where they no longer need a flaming bush or Jesus walking on water in order to believe. So for you to say that "Jesus must not want to convince today's people because he hasn't performed a miracle lately...."......I say to you that maybe you're just not looking in the right places for that miracle, because people see how God works each and every day. YOU may not be convinced yet, but that doesn't mean others aren't.
BTW, "works" is not necessarily miracles....
I think he was trying to say that some of the misconceptions about "religion" come from people that haven't even read the bible and only pass on urban myths.
I LIKE ROMEO, I like his style and delivery (serious I am not being sarcastic). But you followers are simply SALESMEN SELLING VACCUM CLEANERS THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE IF THEY WORK. And all you can say is... "it worked for me." LOL. That's cute. I have had good luck and bad... and my good luck has nothing to w/ God, b/c I do not believe in the God that's taught (as we know it). And my bad luck has nothing to do w/ the devil. The bottom line is SHIT HAPPENS, good and bad. Devil worshippers have won the lottery and devout followers get raped in alleys everyday. ALSO the bottom line is that we are a product of our environment... cause you do not get to CHOOSE where you are born, etc. Had you been born in Saudi there is a 90% chance that you'd be Muslim and you'd SWEAR by it as strongly as you do Christianity today.
"I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."
Since when is being a Christian or any other denomination or anything for that matter a shield? It's not. So bad things do indeed happen to good people, just as it happens to bad people.
ALSO the bottom line is that we are a product of our environment... cause you do not get to CHOOSE where you are born, etc. Had you been born in Saudi there is a 90% chance that you'd be Muslim and you'd SWEAR by it as strongly as you do Christianity today.
You weren't born an Athiest, were you?
I thought you said you wanted to marry me?????
I wasn't born "anything". I was born me... I was "directed" by a very religious family and I had doubts even then. The older I got, the more opinionated I became... and the more EDUCATED I became. As I stated, we NEED those people who are unable to think outside the box... gov capitalizes on this fact, and have even made it commercial w/ tax write-offs for your tithes. They have done an amazing job. Imagine that I have PROOF that it's all a farce... and I go on TV to prove it... imagine the KAOS that will ensue afterwards. MASS HISTERIA. It keeps MOST of the people happy MOST of the time... helps people sleep better when they THINK that some big bad supernatural boss "has their back" when they do not realize that the drunk driver beside them on the highway has MORE control over the next 30 seconds of their life than *God in *Heaven. Oh wait, he's NOT in heaven... he's "on his way back". LOL. He must have gotten lost b/c he's "been on his way back" every since I could remember. I am NOT stupid... I KNOW that there is a higher power... but I simply believe that's about the extent of... there's a higher power. Over ALL beings, not "just" Christians. I also believe that your time in Earth IS the best life that you will have, you die... it's done. I believe in treating people right... and I believe in the 10 Commandments... NOT b/c the "bible" says so but b/c it's just common damn sense. I treat people right, I help people when I can. I do NOT acknowledge a religion, b/c I think it's something WE have created and is the worst thing to happen to spirituality. In all of my good deeds, if I end up in hell and some baby eater who "finds God and repints and names Jesus as his Lord and Saviour 10 minutes before he is executed" makes it to heaven then that means that God is a hipocrite anyway.
"I'm not a gynecologist... but I'll take a look."
That was my point. You said earlier that we are a product of our environment and since we didn't choose where we are born, we just follow the masses, right??? Well, how come YOU can be different? You may be educated, but you certainly aren't the ONLY educated person on earth, right? So, how did environment force YOU to do anything?
It keeps MOST of the people happy MOST of the time... helps people sleep better when they THINK that some big bad supernatural boss "has their back" when they do not realize that the drunk driver beside them on the highway has MORE control over the next 30 seconds of their life than *God in *Heaven.
Why do you always look at God as a force merely associated with Death? It seems like a lot of your examples on why you don't believe center around death and God's "control" over it or lack thereof.
If you trip and fall in front of a train, you WILL DIE, period. God fearing or not. You WILL DIE. Does that mean the train was controlling you? Does that mean the train should be in charge of everyone from there on out? Why does a "drunk driver" have any more control over me than God does? How many "drunk drivers" do you pass by WITHOUT DYING every single day? More than one, I'm sure. Did those drunk drivers that did nothing to you not count?
I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding why you center God's existance or lack thereof (according to you) around death and destruction and mayhem? What about the good things that happen? Who gets credit for those? Luck? Martians? Leprechauns? Who? Why is it that people question why bad things happen, but don't give credit when good things happen?
I am NOT stupid... I KNOW that there is a higher power... but I simply believe that's about the extent of... there's a higher power. Over ALL beings, not "just" Christians.
What is this "higher power's" purpose?
maybe its just me but i dont' have a void to fill. my life is complete i'm not worried about my afterlife or this shell i live in. i think its easy for those on the outside to think non beleivers don't feel or haven't tried to...
if i honestly sat here and ask for a sign from above it won't happen; some will say well its b/c your not supposed to test god or its b/c you don't want it. why not? prove to anyone the glory and they will follow. its that easy.
test of faith... we'll walk to the edge of the cliff you step off will your faith save you? i know i have no problem stopping at the edge and waving goodbye to ya
I thought you said you did believe in an afterlife, just not the one "religion" foretells about?
The point is NOT to be easy, it's to believe when others don't that proves you truly believe in something.if i honestly sat here and ask for a sign from above it won't happen; some will say well its b/c your not supposed to test god or its b/c you don't want it. why not? prove to anyone the glory and they will follow. its that easy.
BTW, role reversal: You could also sit there and tell yourself that if there was NO GOD, somehow you should receive final confirmation of that somehow. How long do you think you'd be waiting for that? Probably not long because you honestly BELIEVE God doesn't exist. How come you can have that kind of "faith" on nothing, yet profess that it's silly to believe in something you can't see? Aren't you doing the same thing only in reverse?
How's that a test of faith? Find anywhere in the Bible or anywhere else where it says that if you jump off a cliff and you are a true believer God will miraculously save you somehow. Find any passage that mentions people committing suicide is a way to show "faith".test of faith... we'll walk to the edge of the cliff you step off will your faith save you? i know i have no problem stopping at the edge and waving goodbye to ya
Wouldn't you think that believing in a higher being is thinking outside the box? If its not, then it's natural to believe that such a thing exists. I know you acknowledge a higher being, but why not an "over all" God?
Ever think that maybe there's a chance that what you believe was told to you, not so much something you derrived on your own. An influence brought to you, not spoken, but thoughts and theories that you've come to accept. This has then become part of you and now what you fully believe. As convinced you are that there is no God by your own "proof", we believe as strongly as you do about our convictions.
So what does it come down to? You and I can agree to disagree. I'll be providing you with my facts that I find true and that you find no value in. All in all, I will continue to act as the Christian I should, and in my eyes, hopefully you'll see "the light". In your eyes, you'll continue to be who you are because you are self justified. I'm sure you don't care what I do with my personal beliefs, so long as they don't trample on you or yours.
i dont' believe in an afterlife, but if there is one i don't think its anything we've seen described in a book but what we have created for ourselves.I thought you said you did believe in an afterlife, just not the one "religion" foretells about?
The point is NOT to be easy, it's to believe when others don't that proves you truly believe in something.
BTW, role reversal: You could also sit there and tell yourself that if there was NO GOD, somehow you should receive final confirmation of that somehow. How long do you think you'd be waiting for that? Probably not long because you honestly BELIEVE God doesn't exist. How come you can have that kind of "faith" on nothing, yet profess that it's silly to believe in something you can't see? Aren't you doing the same thing only in reverse?
How's that a test of faith? Find anywhere in the Bible or anywhere else where it says that if you jump off a cliff and you are a true believer God will miraculously save you somehow. Find any passage that mentions people committing suicide is a way to show "faith".
the point jaime is the why don't I believe. simply i don't have faith in something i don't believe exsist. you on the other hand have faith correct? i've heard the term 'miracle' thrown around many times and 'faith'... well as i said we walk to the cliff i'll wave goodbye b/c no amount of faith is going to save you. and its not commiting suicide if you have faith, b/c if your faith was strong enough you would know that god himself will take your life when its ready and protect you from any harm.
believing in higher being is outside the box, now believing in JESUS is not.
everything one believes is derrived from previous knowlege. no one wakes up and say i'm a christian, atheist, muslim, etc.Ever think that maybe there's a chance that what you believe was told to you, not so much something you derrived on your own. An influence brought to you, not spoken, but thoughts and theories that you've come to accept. This has then become part of you and now what you fully believe. As convinced you are that there is no God by your own "proof", we believe as strongly as you do about our convictions.
i don't care if you don't agree w/ me but if you stand in my way we have a problem. does that answer your question?I'm sure you don't care what I do with my personal beliefs, so long as they don't trample on you or yours.
I think, "thinking outside the box" is a relative term.
how could he stand in the way of your beliefs?
this is kinda why I think debating religon is foolish. no one is ever(at least on here) to change their religon or whatever. that is something someone has to do on their own.
no ones trying to change anyonethis is kinda why I think debating religon is foolish. no one is ever(at least on here) to change their religon or whatever. that is something someone has to do on their own.
this forum was brought up to enlighten others, on others ideals. not to convert anyone
Val for President
maybe if this was more of a Q&A but these threads look more like Debates, to me at least...
of course they are debates, but no one is saying "you should believe god" or vice versa
Val for President
That's double talking my friend. You either believe there is or isn't, not both. I understand what you're trying to say, but you'd be better served by merely saying the first part and not adding the latter. It makes it sound like you're sitting on the fence.
My car is faster than yours. <---That is a statement of straight belief and convinction.
My car is faster than yours, BUT IF it isn't it's because I have a weak cylinder. <----That is a statement that is much weaker than the above one because I'm leaving myself an "out" which shows I have atleast SOME doubt or possibility of getting beat.
See what I'm saying?
You have said you do believe there is a "higher power" before, just not the as described in the Bible. That's awful close to the definition of having "faith" in something, right????the point jaime is the why don't I believe. simply i don't have faith in something i don't believe exsist. you on the other hand have faith correct? i've heard the term 'miracle' thrown around many times and 'faith'...
Question: What exactly is this "higher power" you DO believe exists going to DO for YOU?
It is suicide to do something that you KNOW will cause you to die.well as i said we walk to the cliff i'll wave goodbye b/c no amount of faith is going to save you. and its not commiting suicide if you have faith, b/c if your faith was strong enough you would know that god himself will take your life when its ready and protect you from any harm.
Show me where in the Bible or in the definition of "faith" it refers to "faith" as a shield or saving you from jumping off cliffs or from committing suicide. How is jumping off a cliff going to prove faith or lack thereof then?
faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.
Last edited by Jaimecbr900; 07-26-2006 at 12:50 PM.
sorry what your not seeing is i'm not stupid... i'm saying i don't believe there is one, but i could also be wrong i'm not going to say what i believe is right shit i haven't been dead yet but if i'm wrong i don't think its what your book is led you to believe.That's double talking my friend. You either believe there is or isn't, not both. I understand what you're trying to say, but you'd be better served by merely saying the first part and not adding the latter. It makes it sound like you're sitting on the fence.
do i believe are are unexplained forces about? sure there are always going to be unanswered questions... is there some higher being, obviously... doesn't mean GOD, shit aliens can be higher being if you wanted them to be.... hell i don't know all i know is we live in a complex world w/ complex questions yet one can truely answer. so until then on the side of caution i dont' believe everything i read nor do i take it to be 100% false. the bible very well may be the gateway to something else but that doesn't mean that its true or that its a gateway to anything one would want to be apart of.What exactly is this "higher power" you DO believe exists going to DO for YOU?
good i was awaiting you to comment on this i wrote that for a reason... Jaime do you believe in MIRACLES? You obviously believe in PHROPHECY of the bible or you wouldn't believe in jesus.It is suicide to do something that you KNOW will cause you to die.
Show me where in the Bible or in the definition of "faith" it refers to "faith" as a shield or saving you from jumping off cliffs or from committing suicide. How is jumping off a cliff going to prove faith or lack thereof then?
A heathen, yes....stupid, no......
Again, double talking. See my car example in the previous post.i'm saying i don't believe there is one, but i could also be wrong i'm not going to say what i believe is right shit i haven't been dead yet but if i'm wrong i don't think its what your book is led you to believe.
What you are essentially saying is that you DON'T truly believe something then, right? You are in fact riding the fence.
You do realize that once you're "dead" you don't have a chance to change your mind about anything, right? So whatever you believe, have done, have NOT done, etc when you die is what you die with, right? So, leaving yourself an "out" for AFTER you die is totally worthless.
Again, you believe in a higher being...fine.do i believe are are unexplained forces about? sure there are always going to be unanswered questions... is there some higher being, obviously... doesn't mean GOD, shit aliens can be higher being if you wanted them to be.... hell i don't know all i know is we live in a complex world w/ complex questions yet one can truely answer.
What does this "higher being" do for you exactly?
That's just it, you cannot expect to be given anything (good, bad, or indifferent) if you ride the fence your whole life.so until then on the side of caution i dont' believe everything i read nor do i take it to be 100% false. the bible very well may be the gateway to something else but that doesn't mean that its true or that its a gateway to anything one would want to be apart of.
I'll bite.....I do believe in miracles.good i was awaiting you to comment on this i wrote that for a reason... Jaime do you believe in MIRACLES? You obviously believe in PHROPHECY of the bible or you wouldn't believe in jesus.
reel him in paul LOL
sorry i had too
Val for President
i'm not double talking... i believe one thing and am fully aware its possible i'm wrong.... the difference between me and you is you SAY YOUR RIGHT, but w/o acknowledging possibly your wrong. I dont' believe in your heaven/hell but if i'm wrong i know where i'm goingAgain, double talking. See my car example in the previous post.
What you are essentially saying is that you DON'T truly believe something then, right? You are in fact riding the fence.
You do realize that once you're "dead" you don't have a chance to change your mind about anything, right? So whatever you believe, have done, have NOT done, etc when you die is what you die with, right? So, leaving yourself an "out" for AFTER you die is totally worthless.
b/c i acknowledge i maybe wrong doesn't say anything... i rather die open minded then die blindly. besides your sounded quite closed minded, like you've died before you can't say 100% what is/isn't you only know what you believe to be real. you may very well be 100% wrong and it will be a big surprise to you. i don't pretend to have all the answers.
nothing you took out of context what i think a higher being is.. i don't have a defintion for a higher being, when i meet one i'll tell you.What does this "higher being" do for you exactly?
the problem w/ religion is we take calculus and try to break it down to simple addition. you can't do that w/ religion. just b/c i say i think divine intervent starts a cycle to which man has gotten to doesn't mean i believe in GOD doesn't mean this divine power has any bearing on our situation. we are merely pons in a big game of chess
so to planly answer you question. nothing. higher being has no power over me. i am my own god.
thats what your not getting i'm not riding the fence i'm content w/ dying and going nowhere. thats what i believe at this time. but i'm not dead yet so i can't tell you if what i believe is correct as you can't tell me what heaven is like b/c you've never been there.That's just it, you cannot expect to be given anything (good, bad, or indifferent) if you ride the fence your whole life.
how about this if i die before you and i'm wrong if i go to hell i'm getting a hall pass to haunt the fuck out of you till your last days in this hell on earth. if i'm right, you can visit me at my grave sleeping.
ok you have faith in the miracles, you have faith in the prophecy of the bible, but you dont' have enough faith that god will keep you out of harms way? what the fuck are you praying for if you don't believe your HIGHER BEING is answering you?I'll bite.....I do believe in miracles.
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