Scientific, archaeological, current events proof of bible!

[David88vert]

I was going to respond to your remarks but I can tell it is futile. I admit the details of evolution are complex and confusing, even counterintuitive at times. But, no one has time to research the intracacies of everything and that's why we rely on experts. If I have a car question I trust a mechanic. If I have a medical question I ask a doctor. If you really care about knowing the answer to such details of evolutionary theory, you should go talk to an evolutionary biologist. If 98% of doctors say smoking can cause lung cancer, I believe them even though I don't know anyone with cancer. Why is it that when 98% of biologists say evolution is the method of speciation, you are so convinced you understand it better than they?

It is futile because the current theory is flawed. Evolution was proposed without the current scientific knowledge we have now. Darwin marketed his theory before mathematics had shown that only probability can be determined, and DNA was not discovered until 1953.
Perhaps the theory can evolve into something plausible in the future, but to teach it as fact when it is obviously not probable, is irresponsible.

I question your 98% number. I do not know where you came up with that number but I do have comments on it.
According to this 2006 study (http://www.rice.edu/sallyport/2006/w...cientists.html), only 41% of biologists at "elite research universities" do not believe in God. Presumably the other 59% do believe in God or are agnostic.

If I was paid to promote evolution, I would be an evolutionary biologist. It's a simple concept really, you sell the concept, you get compensation. And if you do not wish to believe in religion, the field of choice is evolutionary biology. Dawkins, Moran, and Gould are all examples of this.

I have questioned evolutionists, and have yet to have one explain how evolution overcame mathematics and physics, much less DNA. As I stated earlier, you are free to believe whatever you wish. I have no problem with people believing evolution. Just understand that you are taking that on faith, not a definitive proof.

[bu villain]

It is futile because the current theory is flawed. Evolution was proposed without the current scientific knowledge we have now. Darwin marketed his theory before mathematics had shown that only probability can be determined, and DNA was not discovered until 1953.
Perhaps the theory can evolve into something plausible in the future, but to teach it as fact when it is obviously not probable, is irresponsible.

Darwin was only the beginning. To credit him entirely for the modern theory is to disregard the last 100+ years of contributions and study. It's not "fact" so to speak but neither is gravity for that matter. No one can tell you why two masses are attracted to each other but do you advocate not teaching about it until we figure that out? Science is always up for revision when new evidence comes to light but until it does, we teach the best theories we have.

I question your 98% number. I do not know where you came up with that number but I do have comments on it.
According to this 2006 study (http://www.rice.edu/sallyport/2006/w...cientists.html), only 41% of biologists at "elite research universities" do not believe in God. Presumably the other 59% do believe in God or are agnostic.

Belief in God does not mean you don't believe in evolution so I'm not sure why you are referencing that study. Here is an example from a 1997 Gallup Poll that states 95% of scientists believe in evolution. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm) Notice 40% believe in theistic evolution.

If I was paid to promote evolution, I would be an evolutionary biologist. It's a simple concept really, you sell the concept, you get compensation. And if you do not wish to believe in religion, the field of choice is evolutionary biology. Dawkins, Moran, and Gould are all examples of this.

Every scientist is paid to study their field, so do you question all scientific findings to this extent or only evolution? I don't see what religion has to do with any of this other than religious people seem to only disregard science when it conflicts with their religious beliefs.

I have questioned evolutionists, and have yet to have one explain how evolution overcame mathematics and physics, much less DNA. As I stated earlier, you are free to believe whatever you wish. I have no problem with people believing evolution. Just understand that you are taking that on faith, not a definitive proof.

I don't see what is to overcome in math and physics and DNA. Either something is possible or its not. I am taking it on "faith" in the same way as I take the idea that things are made of protons and electrons on "faith". The same way I know the sun is a giant ball of gas burning at millions of degrees. If you want to argue that this "faith" is the same as religious faith, I guess there is no point in testing hypothesis, collecting data, or doing experiments.

[David88vert]

Darwin was only the beginning. To credit him entirely for the modern theory is to disregard the last 100+ years of contributions and study. It's not "fact" so to speak but neither is gravity for that matter. No one can tell you why two masses are attracted to each other but do you advocate not teaching about it until we figure that out? Science is always up for revision when new evidence comes to light but until it does, we teach the best theories we have.



Belief in God does not mean you don't believe in evolution so I'm not sure why you are referencing that study. Here is an example from a 1997 Gallup Poll that states 95% of scientists believe in evolution. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm) Notice 40% believe in theistic evolution.



Every scientist is paid to study their field, so do you question all scientific findings to this extent or only evolution? I don't see what religion has to do with any of this other than religious people seem to only disregard science when it conflicts with their religious beliefs.



I don't see what is to overcome in math and physics and DNA. Either something is possible or its not. I am taking it on "faith" in the same way as I take the idea that things are made of protons and electrons on "faith". The same way I know the sun is a giant ball of gas burning at millions of degrees. If you want to argue that this "faith" is the same as religious faith, I guess there is no point in testing hypothesis, collecting data, or doing experiments.

I'm not throwing out any scientists work, including Darwin's. But I'm also not going to swllow it hook, line, and sinker without learning about it first with my own research.
I don't see scientists proclaiming that gravity is spawning new species, new elements, or anything like that. I have not problem with scientists trying to further the studying of the evolutionary theory. I do have a problem with it being taught as fact, when it clearly is not fact. Scientists that push evolution do it with the same conviction and tactics as religious doctrines - and with just as much missing answers.
You are correct that belief in one does not require a disbelief in the other. I agree 100% with you on that. Again, that is faith - which I have advocated that it is the entire time.
I question any science that makes outlandish claims that go against mathematical probability. I question religions also - unfortunately, they do not have to attempt to prove their claims.
You appear to not understand possibility and probability. Possibility is either 0 or 1, and since we cannot prove that something is always impossible, the answer is always 1. Probability is always measured between the two, and will move up and down the scale. The probability that teh current evolution theory got us to where we are was once calculated as 1 in 10x38th power. You have a much better chance of winning the lottery every day for the rest of your life. Do you have faith that you can do that?

[bu villain]

I'm not throwing out any scientists work, including Darwin's. But I'm also not going to swllow it hook, line, and sinker without learning about it first with my own research.
I don't see scientists proclaiming that gravity is spawning new species, new elements, or anything like that. I have not problem with scientists trying to further the studying of the evolutionary theory. I do have a problem with it being taught as fact, when it clearly is not fact. Scientists that push evolution do it with the same conviction and tactics as religious doctrines - and with just as much missing answers.
You are correct that belief in one does not require a disbelief in the other. I agree 100% with you on that. Again, that is faith - which I have advocated that it is the entire time.
I question any science that makes outlandish claims that go against mathematical probability. I question religions also - unfortunately, they do not have to attempt to prove their claims.
You appear to not understand possibility and probability. Possibility is either 0 or 1, and since we cannot prove that something is always impossible, the answer is always 1. Probability is always measured between the two, and will move up and down the scale. The probability that teh current evolution theory got us to where we are was once calculated as 1 in 10x38th power. You have a much better chance of winning the lottery every day for the rest of your life. Do you have faith that you can do that?

In the end you either trust the scientific method and scientist or you don't. If you don't trust them, I doubt I can convince you otherwise. The evidence I have seen is convincing to me, obviously not so to you. I guess you just have a higher threshold for belief than 95% of scientists. Btw, if current evolutionary theory is true, then the chance it got us to where we are today is 100%. The chance of one person winning the lottery may be 1 in a million and yet someone always wins the lottery.

Also, I would like to know, what are the consequences of teaching evolutionary theory that you fear? Since it is really the only scientific theory on the subject out there right now, do you suggest we not teach it at all or do you simply want more emphasis placed on the fact that we can't answer every single question associated with it?

[David88vert]

In the end you either trust the scientific method and scientist or you don't. If you don't trust them, I doubt I can convince you otherwise. The evidence I have seen is convincing to me, obviously not so to you. I guess you just have a higher threshold for belief than 95% of scientists. Btw, if current evolutionary theory is true, then the chance it got us to where we are today is 100%. The chance of one person winning the lottery may be 1 in a million and yet someone always wins the lottery.

Also, I would like to know, what are the consequences of teaching evolutionary theory that you fear? Since it is really the only scientific theory on the subject out there right now, do you suggest we not teach it at all or do you simply want more emphasis placed on the fact that we can't answer every single question associated with it?

First, let me expain probability to you.
Cover all of North America in dimes, with the edge of each one touching each other. Then stack dimes in columns on those all the way to the moon. Now take that one pile that is the size of North America piled all the way to the moon, and multiply it 1 million times. Take one dime and paint it red and put it a random somewhere in those 1 million piles of dimes each the size of North America and piled to the moon. Have a blindfolded person pick out that one dime. That is the odds that a single living cell came from nothing, and became our current civilization.
The question was can you personally always win the lottery - every day. It is mathematically improbably, but its odds are much better, but I doubt that you believe that you can do that.
Show me the scientific method for testing how something comes from nothing (spontaneous creation from the lack of matter), plus scientific method of an inorganic object becoming a living organism (creation of life), and the utilization of the scientific method to observe the natural creation of a new species through DNA mutation.

You seem to be easily convinced. That is fine. You are free to believe whatever you wish, I have no problem with that. If someone tells you the world is flat, and you believe them, it probably won't affect your daily life.

I have no problems or issues with teaching evolution. I do believe that evolution should not be taught as fact, when it is clearly not. It should be taught that it has ample data available that makes it improbable, but do not rule it out entirely. That is very different than what you see presented by biased individuals currently.

[bu villain]

First, let me expain probability to you.
Cover all of North America in dimes, with the edge of each one touching each other. Then stack dimes in columns on those all the way to the moon. Now take that one pile that is the size of North America piled all the way to the moon, and multiply it 1 million times. Take one dime and paint it red and put it a random somewhere in those 1 million piles of dimes each the size of North America and piled to the moon. Have a blindfolded person pick out that one dime. That is the odds that a single living cell came from nothing, and became our current civilization.
The question was can you personally always win the lottery - every day. It is mathematically improbably, but its odds are much better, but I doubt that you believe that you can do that.
Show me the scientific method for testing how something comes from nothing (spontaneous creation from the lack of matter), plus scientific method of an inorganic object becoming a living organism (creation of life), and the utilization of the scientific method to observe the natural creation of a new species through DNA mutation.

You seem to be easily convinced. That is fine. You are free to believe whatever you wish, I have no problem with that. If someone tells you the world is flat, and you believe them, it probably won't affect your daily life.

I have no problems or issues with teaching evolution. I do believe that evolution should not be taught as fact, when it is clearly not. It should be taught that it has ample data available that makes it improbable, but do not rule it out entirely. That is very different than what you see presented by biased individuals currently.

Your coin image is very powerful but I have a hard time believing it. Could you please explain how you arrived at those numbers. I don't see how you could calculate the probability of something like that without making unsubstantiated assumptions. There are far too many unknowns.

Also, the theory of evolution does not make any comment on how the first life started, it only tries to explain how life developed once it had started. So your comment about something from nothing is irrelevant to this discussion.

And your right. I am easily convinved by people I trust. That's what trust means! On this biological issue I trust the biologists more than a random guy on a message board (although I have no doubt you are intelligent as well). However, I would probably trust you on car issues more than an evolutionary biologist. I would argue that's how most people handle complex issues outside of their expertise.

[David88vert]

Your coin image is very powerful but I have a hard time believing it. Could you please explain how you arrived at those numbers. I don't see how you could calculate the probability of something like that without making unsubstantiated assumptions. There are far too many unknowns.

Also, the theory of evolution does not make any comment on how the first life started, it only tries to explain how life developed once it had started. So your comment about something from nothing is irrelevant to this discussion.

And your right. I am easily convinved by people I trust. That's what trust means! On this biological issue I trust the biologists more than a random guy on a message board (although I have no doubt you are intelligent as well). However, I would probably trust you on car issues more than an evolutionary biologist. I would argue that's how most people handle complex issues outside of their expertise.

I did not calculate it to that degree - nor could I spend that much time doing it. It came years ago from a DNA calculation book which included the example. They definitely did not have to make as many assumptions as you do to believe in evolution - as it is currently presented.
I do have lots of information on DNA that I could send you - if you are interested in it. It's pretty dry reading material, but it is pretty clear that DNA does not mutate like the old textbooks claimed in support of evolution.

Ok, ignore the fact that something cannot come from nothing. Show an example of an inorganic object becoming a living organism (creation of life) from inorganic matter through the scientific method, and the utilization of the scientific method to observe the natural creation of a new species through DNA mutation.

So, you choose to trust a random person who you cannot name, question, research, etc? Care to buy a bridge in Brooklyn? It's cheap..
I would hope that you would question everything told and taught to you - however, that being said, there is no real harm in you believing something that does not daily impact your life. Like I said earlier, it is all about faith. I personally cannot have faith in something that defies probability to such an extent as the current theory does, but whether I believe it or not does not affect my daily decisions either of how I provide for my family.