There are SO MANY MORONS posting in this section!

[Master Shake]

Did you read my entire post? It seems like a long answer to you, but your comments make it seem as though you never really wanted any person to answer that question.

You are using what is called observational selectivity to side step the problem with your bold statement. You are commenting on one part of the equation to try to make a point, when in fact Christians do not believe that condemnation is viewed in the way you portray it because you leave out one of the most important character traits of God, his redemption.

The way you state it means that "All have sin and All are going to hell." This is not the case and is a twisting of the truth of what the Bible teaches. You are using a false analogy based on what you "think" or "want" the bible to say vs what it really says. Meaning, you don't have to believe it, but at least have the decency to quote what its about correctly. If you really didn't want to have anyone answer then why did you ask the pastor in the first place? If someone does that to you more than likely you would think they were being an ass.

i'm not saying all that sin are going to hell, just the one particular subject. everyone sins, weather they want to admit it or not. and everyone must as for forgiveness. but for those that are gay, they ask for forgiveness, but they are still in sin for their way of life, did god create that person to send them to hell?

[sport_122]

i'm not saying all that sin are going to hell, just the one particular subject. everyone sins, weather they want to admit it or not. and everyone must as for forgiveness. but for those that are gay, they ask for forgiveness, but they are still in sin for their way of life, did god create that person to send them to hell?

The simple answer, is that there are people on this planet who are homosexual who will not go to hell based on the bible, but this is through Christ. Also, there is a difference between struggling with sin and giving in or giving yourself over to it. The christian struggles with sin as a desire to live as one who has been redeemed (think, felon who just got out of prison trying to make it without continuing in the activity that got them into prison in the first place)

Think of alcoholism. There is evidence to show that some people are wired to be alcoholics (in fact...I think I am). That does not mean that they are ALL drunks, but given the right situation they could easily become that. I don't drink because of this, but I know drinking is wrong for me based on my family history and my drinking history (I was fortunate enough to stop early in my life). With alcoholism it is a constant struggle. Sometimes they are sober(long term) and sometimes they are relapsing, but the thing that lays the problem for their illness is when they are relapsing. An alcoholic is not necessarily always drunk and always looking for a drink, but it is when they are acting on the illness or embracing it and ignoring it as wrong and dangerous that they are doing wrong. I view these two things the same. both are programmed into who you are, and both are dangerous if we don't realize that there is a difference between struggling/wrestling with our illness (sin) and giving into or giving ourselves over to it.

So I believe the absolute wrong thing for us to do is to accept it as okay. this is my personal view based on believing this is an illness much like alcoholism or any of the many other addictions. But this goes into my personal views on how the psychology works and I think we (western nations) are doing a terrible thing to turn homosexuality into a thing of pop culture. but this is a much different topic than your question.

[DrivenMind]

The simple answer, is that there are people on this planet who are homosexual who will not go to hell based on the bible, but this is through Christ. Also, there is a difference between struggling with sin and giving in or giving yourself over to it. The christian struggles with sin as a desire to live as one who has been redeemed (think, felon who just got out of prison trying to make it without continuing in the activity that got them into prison in the first place)

Think of alcoholism. There is evidence to show that some people are wired to be alcoholics (in fact...I think I am). That does not mean that they are ALL drunks, but given the right situation they could easily become that. I don't drink because of this, but I know drinking is wrong for me based on my family history and my drinking history (I was fortunate enough to stop early in my life). With alcoholism it is a constant struggle. Sometimes they are sober(long term) and sometimes they are relapsing, but the thing that lays the problem for their illness is when they are relapsing. An alcoholic is not necessarily always drunk and always looking for a drink, but it is when they are acting on the illness or embracing it and ignoring it as wrong and dangerous that they are doing wrong. I view these two things the same. both are programmed into who you are, and both are dangerous if we don't realize that there is a difference between struggling/wrestling with our illness (sin) and giving into or giving ourselves over to it.

So I believe the absolute wrong thing for us to do is to accept it as okay. this is my personal view based on believing this is an illness much like alcoholism or any of the many other addictions. But this goes into my personal views on how the psychology works and I think we (western nations) are doing a terrible thing to turn homosexuality into a thing of pop culture. but this is a much different topic than your question.

Doesn't the first paragraph depend entirely on who's translating or interpreting scripture? One of the things I find most disturbing about organized religion is the fact that so many people seem to believe there is some sort of objective way of knowing exactly what god meant in his many books. The fact that so many people are able to sit down and discuss such a subjective subject believing their conversation will yield some objective truths is really quite a terrifying thing when you get down to it.

And say what you will about the Bible being a handy reference for morality, and this may very well have been its original purpose. However it is worth nothing that there has never been anything absolute about moral truths.

[sport_122]

Doesn't the first paragraph depend entirely on who's translating or interpreting scripture? One of the things I find most disturbing about organized religion is the fact that so many people seem to believe there is some sort of objective way of knowing exactly what god meant in his many books. The fact that so many people are able to sit down and discuss such a subjective subject believing their conversation will yield some objective truths is really quite a terrifying thing when you get down to it.

I actually agree. I actually outlined this previously a few posts ago. The only thing I would point out is that there are some thing that all Christian's should have in common. That is what can be discussed uniformly amongst those who are believers. If you get really specific then you will start to see those subjective things taking hold. For instance the Bible is very very specific on where people stand in relation to God and what tithing is and what a covenant is. its only when people who ignore what is actually written for their own personal reasons that a cloud starts to form and the grey sets in. And I also believe this is why we have the ability to reason. Because we should be checking our beliefs with other tools that we have been given. Like science, logic, history, translated language, etc...There is nothing in the Bible that tells us that the only thing we should use to understand God and scripture is the Bible.

And say what you will about the Bible being a handy reference for morality, and this may very well have been its original purpose. However it is worth nothing that there has never been anything absolute about moral truths.

I don't think the Bible is a reference for human morality. it tells us that human morality is out of our reach and that our morality has nothing to do with our ability to mend our relationship with God...(trying to keep the point simple, but it is a lot more involved than that)

There is nothing absolute about human law (as in legislated law) but there are absolute things that humans understand to be moral law, long before the books of the bible were written. For instance, nobody had to tell you that murdering or stealing is wrong. nobody has every had to define that. People still do it, but those who do often have to try to justify it, which shows that they knew something was not right about what they just did. In other words you can't go to any country on this planet, kill someone in public and not expect a reaction. Its never been that way. That seems pretty universal to me.

[trini_gsr]

I don't think the Bible is a reference for human morality. it tells us that human morality is out of our reach and that our morality has nothing to do with our ability to mend our relationship with God...(trying to keep the point simple, but it is a lot more involved than that)

i agree with most of what you've said but this is a little confusing. how can "human morality" be out of our reach as humans? I'm assuming you mean God's standard of morality? And what makes you say this?

[sport_122]

i agree with most of what you've said but this is a little confusing. how can "human morality" be out of our reach as humans? I'm assuming you mean God's standard of morality? And what makes you say this?

Great question. Thanks for checking me on this.

Human morality is subjective and I would define it as the laws/rules that are varied amongst nations and then the personal rules that we set for ourselves. What i am saying is that even the rules of conduct that humans make for themselves are not kept. We have an understanding of human conduct, but we do not even meet our own moral standard. Like being on time, keeping a budget, respecting one another, not speeding, cheating, maintaining a certain diet, new years resolutions etc. So maybe I should have said that keeping our own moral standards does not happen. And I guess I would also need to add that when I think of keeping or breaking your own rules, I am saying that if you break one of your rules you have severed your entire code of conduct or your personal morality.

And then based on the Bible, it is written numerous times that our most righteous acts are worthless. This is saying that the things that we do to try to earn our way into Gods favor are pointless. Christians do not believe that we get into heaven by being good, we believe it is purely by grace and mercy because we believe that we are guilty of breaking God's law and what we deserve is punishment, yet we are spared because of Christ.

Did that make more sense?...lemme know if I failed to define my statement.

[trini_gsr]

Great question. Thanks for checking me on this.

Human morality is subjective and I would define it as the laws/rules that are varied amongst nations and then the personal rules that we set for ourselves. What i am saying is that even the rules of conduct that humans make for themselves are not kept. We have an understanding of human conduct, but we do not even meet our own moral standard. Like being on time, keeping a budget, respecting one another, not speeding, cheating, maintaining a certain diet, new years resolutions etc. So maybe I should have said that keeping our own moral standards does not happen. And I guess I would also need to add that when I think of keeping or breaking your own rules, I am saying that if you break one of your rules you have severed your entire code of conduct or your personal morality.

And then based on the Bible, it is written numerous times that our most righteous acts are worthless. This is saying that the things that we do to try to earn our way into Gods favor are pointless. Christians do not believe that we get into heaven by being good, we believe it is purely by grace and mercy because we believe that we are guilty of breaking God's law and what we deserve is punishment, yet we are spared because of Christ.

Did that make more sense?...lemme know if I failed to define my statement.

thanks for the clarification. what you've described is my fundamental problem with the Bible, that I'm still trying to work out. the whole idea of sin, humans deserving punishment, heaven/hell, etc. it's just another system of control. and too one-dimensional/non-inclusive of other cultures' ideas of what spirituality means to be truly universal.

still, those who truly live by the Bible are often exemplary ppl in my experience, so I can't front on it, it does have a viable spiritual message.