I am really a car/power snob. Oh well.

[Tracy]

I was just reading a post and I won't call out names unless I am forced by smack talk. So it got me to thinking. I really hate it when someone has an older model car and takes 5,6,7 years to finally get it working right. Especially when tons of other people have made the same power on the same car for years.

I will use 2 cars models as examples since I see it happen most with these.

Toyota Supra. IMO, a 1000 hp Supra is played out. It was done for the first time in 2001 and has been done by every Tom, Dick and Harry at this point. The fact that it took you 6 years to read an article written in Turbo magazine on how to make 1000 hp in a Supra is sad. Once a magazine has given step by step instructions on how to build a car, it's lame and played out. Get a new car. You are not an innovator at this point.

Mitsubishi Eclipse. IMO, breaking a car 11ty billion times before you get it right 6 years later is dumb. It's sad that you spent tens of thousands of dollars on a Mitsubishi. It even more sad that it took you 6 years to run decent times on a car that has run those same times 8 years ago....by many.

Now don't get me wrong. I know that for the every day Joe, these stories my be offensive. They might say, it takes a lot of time and dedication to build a fast car and I know that more than anyone. BUT when you obviously have 10's of thousands of dollars spent on your car several times over after blowing it up several times over or not getting it right several times over, it's gay that it took you so long to get it right when you obviously have money.

Maybe I am spoiled by my experiences. Dan buys a car, makes big power in a few months then sells it and moves on to the next. IMO, that just shows that there are innovators and then there are lame poseurs.

/rant

[The Ren]

But I like my supra.. Ass!

[Alan®]

tell us how you really feel girl.

[Tracy]

Ren,

You aren't trying to show off your balls with your power. You aren't a shop. You aren't a poseur dick rider. You just got a bunk car.

[Corolla_TC]

i have to say that i have been building this corolla for 6 years now and that has been because im broke and have trusted people to do the work that haven't exactly known what they are doing. now i'll admit twincharging a 94 corolla isn't done everyday but it shouldn't have been as much trouble as it has been. the old setup blew two motors so now i am on my third with a completely different design. i get what you are saying and im trying to be an innovator but it has been difficult on a budget

[The Ren]

You aren't trying to show off your balls with your power. You aren't a shop. You aren't a poseur dick rider. You just got a bunk car.

I Haz no balls But I just wanted to start shit with you.. I <3 you Tracy!

[Alan®]

I have to agree with you on 1000+WHP Supra's being played out. Having driven a few my self it doesn't make sense to do it unless all you are going to do is run it on the highway or the strip and imho, where's the fun in that?

Tracy will be the only one who knows what I'm talking about here but, take fred's old SC300. Now that was a car made mid-low 400's on pump and he drove 50+ miles to work in it everyday. The car was fun low key but at the end of the day you could actually enjoy it EVERYDAY. There's no way in hell I'm gonna plunk a shit ton of money in a car that I'm only going to take out every once in a while because its so ridiculously unuseable its not even funny.

[Tracy]

i have to say that i have been building this corolla for 6 years now and that has been because im broke and have trusted people to do the work that haven't exactly known what they are doing. now i'll admit twincharging a 94 corolla isn't done everyday but it shouldn't have been as much trouble as it has been. the old setup blew two motors so now i am on my third with a completely different design. i get what you are saying and im trying to be an innovator but it has been difficult on a budget

I understand this for the regular person. I am more so speaking of shop cars and people who have been furiously working on their car with no expense spared and it's obvious and on top of that they dick ride a shop that has been working on their car.

I wish I hadn't straightened up my act or else I would call out the examples....but alas I am trying to be a little more grown up.

[creman]

I think this is silly honestly...Driving and fixing cars is a hobbie to enjoy, just because someone else enjoys it the same way doesn't mean you shouldn't as well. That's like saying you shouldn't wear make-up because you put it on the same as someone else. "it's been done, the colors, the blending...old news. Why do you bother?"

Silly point of view in my opinion.

[MongolPup]

I have to agree with you on 1000+WHP Supra's being played out. Having driven a few my self it doesn't make sense to do it unless all you are going to do is run it on the highway or the strip and imho, where's the fun in that?

Right, that's why you have an Eclipse right? Because the Supra is played out.

EVERYONE: TRACY IS TALKING ABOUT SHOPS, NOT YOU OR I.

[Tracy]

I think this is silly honestly...Driving and fixing cars is a hobbie to enjoy, just because someone else enjoys it the same way doesn't mean you shouldn't as well. That's like saying you should wear make-up because you put it on the same as someone else. "it's been done, the colors, the blending...old news. Why do you bother?"

Silly point of view in my opinion.

Well, I have a competitive spirit and makeup isn't very competitive, so that comparison doesn't make sense to me. I only wear mascara. LOL! And the cheap kind at that.

I don't walk around trying to be an import model because I wear $200 mascara. I don't think it makes my boobs look bigger. I don't think that my mascara entitles me to be called innovative and to have nut-swingers or boob-swingers (in this case) just because I spent $200 on it.

When you are doing it to swing your balls—IMO it's different than just enjoying your hobby and being humble about it and that is the point of my post.

Part of my job for years was helping people with their hobbies and like I said, I mean this more to shops and their swingers.

[Corolla_TC]

I think this is silly honestly...Driving and fixing cars is a hobbie to enjoy, just because someone else enjoys it the same way doesn't mean you shouldn't as well. That's like saying you shouldn't wear make-up because you put it on the same as someone else. "it's been done, the colors, the blending...old news. Why do you bother?"

Silly point of view in my opinion.

well it depends on if you have the attitude of "im a badass and this make up job is the bestest". i don't know who she is responding to specifically but if you are doing something claiming to be on the cutting edge and it has been done time and time again, you look like a dumbass. someone building it themselves versus a shop building a shop car is two different scenarios

[Tracy]

well it depends on if you have the attitude of "im a badass and this make up job is the bestest". i don't know who she is responding to specifically but if you are doing something claiming to be on the cutting edge and it has been done time and time again, you look like a dumbass. someone building it themselves versus a shop building a shop car is two different scenarios

Exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks.

[Vteckidd]

Topspeed Clark and the Red Eclipse guy?

[Vteckidd]

I guess i need to know the context of the argument.

Are you saying that someone is saying "OMG XXXXXXXXX is the best shop ever they are better than XXXXXXXXXX cause my supra is fast"

[Z0_o6]

I understand what you mean Tracy. It's not a big deal when an individual is building something that has been done before, but the whole purpose behind a shop car is to bring in business. If you show everyone that as a shop you can't even follow the trends right, what does that say? OTOH, if you show everyone that you are one of the first, and an innovator, then you are actually doing something GOOD for the reputation of the shop and not just wasting money to impress a couple buddies. It's like when the Evo X came out, since it had the 4B11 EVERY big shop was scrambling to be one of the very first to make big numbers out of one so they could show they are ahead of the curve.

It's a good point that unfortunately some people will take offense to just because they think as an individual on a budget and can't see the reasoning behind shop cars.

[Vteckidd]

Is it easy to make a 1000hp Supra, absolutely, its been done 1000 times just like 500whp Hondas. But its still impressive none the less.

[NVEOUS]

See I agree with Tracey on this one. 1000Hp supras are played out and so are the eclipses. Dont' copy something that has already been done and think its the first time. Thats stupid to me. There is a reason that is is called "customization" and there is a reason its YOUR car. But spending tens of thousands of dollars on something that has already been done over and over is ridiculous when you can spend that same amount of money on something that hasnt' been done or not that much and be "different" than others. But thats just my

[Tracy]

Now don't get me wrong. I value and enjoy a nicely built car with amazing power...no matter how many times it has been done. To me, it's the attitude and position behind it that counts. You get to act like a badass when you are one of the first....

Other than that, you have a nice car...not an innovative car.

[Z0_o6]

Is it easy to make a 1000hp Supra, absolutely, its been done 1000 times just like 500whp Hondas. But its still impressive none the less.

I agree with you, but as impressive and cool as it is, all it shows is you know how to look through a catalog ya know?

[Vteckidd]

I understand what you mean Tracy. It's not a big deal when an individual is building something that has been done before, but the whole purpose behind a shop car is to bring in business. If you show everyone that as a shop you can't even follow the trends right, what does that say? OTOH, if you show everyone that you are one of the first, and an innovator, then you are actually doing something GOOD for the reputation of the shop and not just wasting money to impress a couple buddies. It's like when the Evo X came out, since it had the 4B11 EVERY big shop was scrambling to be one of the very first to make big numbers out of one so they could show they are ahead of the curve.

It's a good point that unfortunately some people will take offense to just because they think as an individual on a budget and can't see the reasoning behind shop cars.

I strongly disagree.

Lets say some off the wall shop like Killswitch (who normally builds 240s) comes out with a 1000whp Supra. DOnt sit here an tell me it is not impressive. Has it been done before, sure. Is it still cool, yes.

Also, not every kid out there with a supra, honda, nissan, etc is looking for innovation , they want RELIABLE CHEAP HP. very few guys out there are looking to drop the big money to do something crazy different.

The money is in consistency. So if you can build a reliable 1000whp supra or 600whp evo, etc, you will attract cars that think "hey they build big HP cars, they can tinker with my car"

[Tracy]

I understand what you mean Tracy. It's not a big deal when an individual is building something that has been done before, but the whole purpose behind a shop car is to bring in business. If you show everyone that as a shop you can't even follow the trends right, what does that say? OTOH, if you show everyone that you are one of the first, and an innovator, then you are actually doing something GOOD for the reputation of the shop and not just wasting money to impress a couple buddies. It's like when the Evo X came out, since it had the 4B11 EVERY big shop was scrambling to be one of the very first to make big numbers out of one so they could show they are ahead of the curve.

It's a good point that unfortunately some people will take offense to just because they think as an individual on a budget and can't see the reasoning behind shop cars.

YES YES YES!

I re-read my first post and need to add the shop car thing.

[Vteckidd]

you guys cant be serious?

So how many of you have a GSR swapped Civic, or a 30R/35R/18g on an EVO, GT28R on a SR20det, PT67 on a SUpra.........

Come on, no one is innovative anymore. You can read a magazine article all you want, doesnt mean you are going to make the power. It takes a lot more than that.

[03RCode]

I just want George's SC...

[MongolPup]

Disco potato? Welcome to 1999.

[Z0_o6]

I strongly disagree.

Lets say some off the wall shop like Killswitch (who normally builds 240s) comes out with a 1000whp Supra. DOnt sit here an tell me it is not impressive. Has it been done before, sure. Is it still cool, yes.

Also, not every kid out there with a supra, honda, nissan, etc is looking for innovation , they want RELIABLE CHEAP HP. very few guys out there are looking to drop the big money to do something crazy different.

The money is in consistency. So if you can build a reliable 1000whp supra or 600whp evo, etc, you will attract cars that think "hey they build big HP cars, they can tinker with my car"

I won't argue because you're right, this is the flip side of the coin. I should have left the statement a little more open. I do agree 1000% that (especially to me) the killer is in the reliability. The entire reason I take my STi to be tuned up in Charleston instead of the Atlanta area, is because of a couple different reasons. I will not bash any sponsors here, but I contacted one shop about a tune, and they just wanted to pick my setup apart and tell me what I needed to change (for example getting rid of my stand-alone to use an accessport to flash the stock ECU since it's easier) vs. the shop out of state where the tuner has had the exact same setup on his car since they first came out, without an issue.

So YES reliability sells people as much, if not more than just making huge numbers.

[Vteckidd]

Georges car is SICK, but lets not kid ourselves, theres nothing innovative about it. At least not that i know of. Its a GTE with a big turbo. It has cams, fuel system, and an AEM.

I think what makes his car cool is the fact that it makes that kinda power in a relatively stock looking chassis. It is very sleeperish.

[Tracy]

I strongly disagree.

Lets say some off the wall shop like Killswitch (who normally builds 240s) comes out with a 1000whp Supra. DOnt sit here an tell me it is not impressive. Has it been done before, sure. Is it still cool, yes.

Also, not every kid out there with a supra, honda, nissan, etc is looking for innovation , they want RELIABLE CHEAP HP. very few guys out there are looking to drop the big money to do something crazy different.

The money is in consistency. So if you can build a reliable 1000whp supra or 600whp evo, etc, you will attract cars that think "hey they build big HP cars, they can tinker with my car"

I wouldn't be impressed if they built a Supra. I would feel the same way. To me, cars are cars with different tolerances and such, but non the less all cars. IMO a true innovator can get a new car and build the shit out of it because he understand the laws of cars.

Dan did this with almost every car we have ever had as a shop car. Every car we have ever built minus the Supra was built with mostly crap junk parts laying around the shop and most of them left over from the Supra. The Supra went against all of the rules and was one of the very first to make 1000 hp...in 2002. He was making over 900 the same year the first person made 1000 and at the time only 2 were and one of them was Titan (even thought they weren't the first).

[Vteckidd]

Well i mean there is a fine line.

IMO and ive been doing this a LONG time.....the customer you want is the reliable consistent mild to medium power guy. Guy that wants to spend $2000-4000 every 6 months is a nice customer.

Ill tell you what the customer that wants to spend $15,000-20000 you make MAYBE 20% on his ticket, if you are lucky.

Like a clutch job pays $300-400 in labor for most 4 cylinders. It can be done in 1-2 hours. A ENGINE swap most shops charge $1000. Thats A LOT MORE work for not that much more money.

As the ticket price increases, your profit goes down, for the most part. Or you get to the point where the ticket is so astronomical in price it doesnt justify the work done.

I just dont see anything nowadays where if you built some cool setup or something that no one else has done , that its going to drive your business and expand it.

[Z0_o6]

I wouldn't be impressed if they built a Supra. I would feel the same way. To me, cars are cars with different tolerances and such, but non the less all cars. IMO a true innovator can get a new car and build the shit out of it because he understand the laws of cars.

Check your reps.

[Tracy]

I won't argue because you're right, this is the flip side of the coin. I should have left the statement a little more open. I do agree 1000% that (especially to me) the killer is in the reliability. The entire reason I take my STi to be tuned up in Charleston instead of the Atlanta area, is because of a couple different reasons. I will not bash any sponsors here, but I contacted one shop about a tune, and they just wanted to pick my setup apart and tell me what I needed to change (for example getting rid of my stand-alone to use an accessport to flash the stock ECU since it's easier) vs. the shop out of state where the tuner has had the exact same setup on his car since they first came out, without an issue.

So YES reliability sells people as much, if not more than just making huge numbers.

I'll give you the shop perspective on this one. I have tons of experience with this exact deal. You get your car built somewhere else or you build it. Then you want us to tune it (for example). Well, since we are the last one to touch it we either get all of the credit or all of the crap talk about how we messed up your car. If we don't agree with your setup and the power expectations, we feel the need to tell you that. It is kind of our job to tell you our experience with certain set ups. You don't know how many times people buy pieces all over the Internet with no idea about how to make a parts combo that works. Then they think tuning will fix it all.

That's not to say that's how you do, but generally that's how it goes down and as a shop we have to cover our ass by telling you what we think of your set up before we tune it. Otherwise if we tell you after you spent $500 on tuning, you will ask why didn't you tell me that before you tuned it. We used to not say anything about customer set ups until it came back to bite us in the ass a few times. It's just a way to curb the possible after drama.

[nreggie454]

I see what you are saying, but even though it has been done a million times, a shop building a high HP Supra/EVO/whatever can be a great way for them to show that they know what they are doing. It could be just their way of getting noticed and saying they can hang with the shops that already have their names established in the tuner community. Granted, them acting like hot shit or innovators is kinda douchebaggy, unless they do it in some crazy new way.

[Tracy]

Well i mean there is a fine line.

IMO and ive been doing this a LONG time.....the customer you want is the reliable consistent mild to medium power guy. Guy that wants to spend $2000-4000 every 6 months is a nice customer.

Ill tell you what the customer that wants to spend $15,000-20000 you make MAYBE 20% on his ticket, if you are lucky.

Like a clutch job pays $300-400 in labor for most 4 cylinders. It can be done in 1-2 hours. A ENGINE swap most shops charge $1000. Thats A LOT MORE work for not that much more money.

As the ticket price increases, your profit goes down, for the most part. Or you get to the point where the ticket is so astronomical in price it doesnt justify the work done.

I just dont see anything nowadays where if you built some cool setup or something that no one else has done , that its going to drive your business and expand it.

We aren't talking about customers. That is a whole nother post. I am talking about shop cars with all the resources and knowledge at their fingertips.

I've been doing this just as long as you and innovation does count in the customers eyes.

[Z0_o6]

I just dont see anything nowadays where if you built some cool setup or something that no one else has done , that its going to drive your business and expand it.

I won't argue business numbers with you, I agree profit PERCENTAGE goes down as price goes up, the dollars still go up.

I will point this out though, if being innovative doesn't bring business, why are you going as fast as you can to make as many parts you can to support the Genesis? There aren't a shit-ton of them out there.

[Vteckidd]

I wouldn't be impressed if they built a Supra. I would feel the same way. To me, cars are cars with different tolerances and such, but non the less all cars. IMO a true innovator can get a new car and build the shit out of it because he understand the laws of cars.

Dan did this with every car we have ever had as a shop car. Every car we have ever built minus the Supra was built with mostly crap junk parts laying around the shop and most of them left over from the Supra. The Supra went against all of the rules and was one of the very first to make 1000 hp...in 2002. He was making over 900 the same year the first person made 1000 and at the time only 2 were and one of them was Titan (even thought they weren't the first).

Well you know i think dan knows his stuff, but come on. Its no secret. Even back then it wasnt hard to build a 1000whp supra. BIG TURBO, BIG INTERCOOLER, BIG BOOST. done.

The 240? it had a GT28R on it, then a 30R. Those turbos were around for years. His intercooler setup was cool, and the 30R made a shit load of power, but i think that was more in his tuning, not some innovative setup.

The EVO was cool. On a stock block it was def something different. But again, it was a 4G63, the recipe for power on those cars has been around LONG before the EVO 8 came out.

The STI yall had , straight up off the shelf rotated 35R kit. been done 1000 times hell it came from a car with that kit on it.

I mean i understand what you are saying, if you know cars you know cars. I could build a 1000whp supra if i had the money and desire. I could built a 500whp 240 if i had the money and desire. Its not hard. Im sure Topspeed, Mainstream, etc could all as well. Hell i bet if dan wanted to he could build a 800whp Honda too.

So i guess im back to the argument. Are you upset because someone built a car that just isnt innovative?

i just dont see the argument

[tony]

Couldn't have been said better

[Z0_o6]

I'll give you the shop perspective on this one. I have tons of experience with this exact deal. You get your car built somewhere else or you build it. Then you want us to tune it (for example). Well, since we are the last one to touch it we either get all of the credit or all of the crap talk about how we messed up your car. If we don't agree with your setup and the power expectations, we feel the need to tell you that. It is kind of our job to tell you our experience with certain set ups. You don't know how many times people buy pieces all over the Internet with no idea about how to make a parts combo that works. Then they think tuning will fix it all.

That's not to say that's how you do, but generally that's how it goes down and as a shop we have to cover our ass by telling you what we think of your set up before we tune it. Otherwise if we tell you after you spent $500, you will ask why didn't you tell me that before you tuned it. We used to not say anything about customer set ups until it came back to bite us in the ass a few times.

And thus the reason I mentioned no names. I don't care to start anything, because the fact is, I just didn't like how I was talked down to, not saying that it is wrong to inform the customer of possible issues. It went far beyond saying "OK, we haven't had the best of luck with Hydra's before, so you may want to know going in that the tune may cost a little more since it is more complicated." It was more along the lines of "That piece of shit Hydra you just bought isn't even going to crank the car. You just wasted your money like an idiot, you should have just stuck with your Cobb AP." I can't fucking stand that, because every part on that car has been researched and compared so that I DON'T create a headache for myself or my tuner.

[Alan®]

Right, that's why you have an Eclipse right? Because the Supra is played out.

EVERYONE: TRACY IS TALKING ABOUT SHOPS, NOT YOU OR I.

LOL. No I have an eclipse because it was given to me to keep my costs down as I'm in school at the moment. My point is simply whatever happened to having well rounded cars that you could take to the strip run a respectable time, then go to the road course and run some kcik ass laps and still drive it home to pick up the lady and take her somewhere nice without looking like a complete asshat or breaking her back in the process.

Yea I kno she is talking about shops.

[Vteckidd]

We aren't talking about customers. That is a whole nother post. I am talking about shop cars with all the resources and knowledge at their fingertips.

I've been doing this just as long as you and innovation does count in the customers eyes.

This is prob going to start a fight, but lets see if you can stay level headed and pretend its not me.

What has Batlground done that was innovative that really had a huge impact on your business?

I mean i cant speak for before i was there, but when i was there, barely any Supras came by.

Never once built a drift car (even though you guys had kickass 240s).

Subaru Business followed Siegel wherever he went. Even though you had a STI.

EVO business , we had a few here an there, but the bulk of them went to topspeed.

240s, same as Evos, you guys had a few come in , but nothing out of the ordinary.

I mean what i see from BG was a wider spectrum of cars to work on. A lot of shops around here are branded as a certain make an model of car shop. BG has been an EVO shop a SUPRA shop a 240 SHop, its evolved. but i dont see where anything crazy innovative really got you more business than doing something simple.

Make sense?

[Vteckidd]

I guess my point is

IF SHOP "A" does something crazy innovative an makes 1000whp "CAR"

IF SHOP "B" does something average and makes 1000whp "CAR"

The impact on business is the same.

IMO of course. So why not just keep it simple