I am really a car/power snob. Oh well.

[Z0_o6]

I strongly disagree.

Lets say some off the wall shop like Killswitch (who normally builds 240s) comes out with a 1000whp Supra. DOnt sit here an tell me it is not impressive. Has it been done before, sure. Is it still cool, yes.

Also, not every kid out there with a supra, honda, nissan, etc is looking for innovation , they want RELIABLE CHEAP HP. very few guys out there are looking to drop the big money to do something crazy different.

The money is in consistency. So if you can build a reliable 1000whp supra or 600whp evo, etc, you will attract cars that think "hey they build big HP cars, they can tinker with my car"

I won't argue because you're right, this is the flip side of the coin. I should have left the statement a little more open. I do agree 1000% that (especially to me) the killer is in the reliability. The entire reason I take my STi to be tuned up in Charleston instead of the Atlanta area, is because of a couple different reasons. I will not bash any sponsors here, but I contacted one shop about a tune, and they just wanted to pick my setup apart and tell me what I needed to change (for example getting rid of my stand-alone to use an accessport to flash the stock ECU since it's easier) vs. the shop out of state where the tuner has had the exact same setup on his car since they first came out, without an issue.

So YES reliability sells people as much, if not more than just making huge numbers.

[Tracy]

I won't argue because you're right, this is the flip side of the coin. I should have left the statement a little more open. I do agree 1000% that (especially to me) the killer is in the reliability. The entire reason I take my STi to be tuned up in Charleston instead of the Atlanta area, is because of a couple different reasons. I will not bash any sponsors here, but I contacted one shop about a tune, and they just wanted to pick my setup apart and tell me what I needed to change (for example getting rid of my stand-alone to use an accessport to flash the stock ECU since it's easier) vs. the shop out of state where the tuner has had the exact same setup on his car since they first came out, without an issue.

So YES reliability sells people as much, if not more than just making huge numbers.

I'll give you the shop perspective on this one. I have tons of experience with this exact deal. You get your car built somewhere else or you build it. Then you want us to tune it (for example). Well, since we are the last one to touch it we either get all of the credit or all of the crap talk about how we messed up your car. If we don't agree with your setup and the power expectations, we feel the need to tell you that. It is kind of our job to tell you our experience with certain set ups. You don't know how many times people buy pieces all over the Internet with no idea about how to make a parts combo that works. Then they think tuning will fix it all.

That's not to say that's how you do, but generally that's how it goes down and as a shop we have to cover our ass by telling you what we think of your set up before we tune it. Otherwise if we tell you after you spent $500 on tuning, you will ask why didn't you tell me that before you tuned it. We used to not say anything about customer set ups until it came back to bite us in the ass a few times. It's just a way to curb the possible after drama.

[Z0_o6]

I'll give you the shop perspective on this one. I have tons of experience with this exact deal. You get your car built somewhere else or you build it. Then you want us to tune it (for example). Well, since we are the last one to touch it we either get all of the credit or all of the crap talk about how we messed up your car. If we don't agree with your setup and the power expectations, we feel the need to tell you that. It is kind of our job to tell you our experience with certain set ups. You don't know how many times people buy pieces all over the Internet with no idea about how to make a parts combo that works. Then they think tuning will fix it all.

That's not to say that's how you do, but generally that's how it goes down and as a shop we have to cover our ass by telling you what we think of your set up before we tune it. Otherwise if we tell you after you spent $500, you will ask why didn't you tell me that before you tuned it. We used to not say anything about customer set ups until it came back to bite us in the ass a few times.

And thus the reason I mentioned no names. I don't care to start anything, because the fact is, I just didn't like how I was talked down to, not saying that it is wrong to inform the customer of possible issues. It went far beyond saying "OK, we haven't had the best of luck with Hydra's before, so you may want to know going in that the tune may cost a little more since it is more complicated." It was more along the lines of "That piece of shit Hydra you just bought isn't even going to crank the car. You just wasted your money like an idiot, you should have just stuck with your Cobb AP." I can't fucking stand that, because every part on that car has been researched and compared so that I DON'T create a headache for myself or my tuner.

[Tracy]

And thus the reason I mentioned no names. I don't care to start anything, because the fact is, I just didn't like how I was talked down to, not saying that it is wrong to inform the customer of possible issues. It went far beyond saying "OK, we haven't had the best of luck with Hydra's before, so you may want to know going in that the tune may cost a little more since it is more complicated." It was more along the lines of "That piece of shit Hydra you just bought isn't even going to crank the car. You just wasted your money like an idiot, you should have just stuck with your Cobb AP." I can't fucking stand that, because every part on that car has been researched and compared so that I DON'T create a headache for myself or my tuner.

I don't know who you are talking about (could have been us and I don't know because I haven't been there in 2 years) and my post wasn't geared toward you. Just so you know I was just giving my perspective. If you were treated that way, then that sucks. BUT, like I said, you can probably thank all of the idiots out there for the shop not understanding you have done all of your research and such. Facts are, most people don't.

P.S. We put a Hydra on the first STI we built with power.

[Z0_o6]

I don't know who you are talking about (could have been us and I don't know because I haven't been there in 2 years) and my post wasn't geared toward you. Just so you know I was just giving my perspective. If you were treated that way, then that sucks. BUT, like I said, you can probably thank all of the idiots out there for the shop not understanding you have done all of your research and such. Facts are, most people don't.

P.S. We put a Hydra on the first STI we built with power.

For the record the only reason Battlground didn't tune my car is because our schedules didn't match up, and Dan was very upfront about that, so no big deal there, I just kept looking and appreciated the honesty.

Tracy you have PM.