Will the plane take off? v. Mythbusters!!! (VIDEO on Page 38)

[man]

You are creating a logic paradox by saying that the plane is stationary while the treadmill is moving at some speed that is keeping it stationary. The treadmill MATCHES th speed of the plane. If the plane isn't moving, neither is the treadmill.

Exactly, and since the plane would have to start moving forward for the treadmill to start moving, the myth debunks itself. This is of course one more undeniable fact as to why the plane will take off, no need to repeat the others.

Come on people, how do you not get this?

[_Christian_]

jesus christ people!!! the treadmill will cause friction (wheels), not drag. this many people really dont know how planes work?

[man]

jesus christ people!!! the treadmill will cause friction, not drag. this many people really dont know how planes work?

Drag is friction...

[_Christian_]

Drag is friction...

alright smart ass.

rephrased: The treadmill will cause friction via the wheels and no friction in terms of aerodynamic drag.

[Nismo]

Pa-jow!

[MaRk2k]

I think it would take off but crash Immediately

[kingkong]

I think it would take off but crash Immediately

why would it crash?

[Killswitch Performance]

I didn't read this whole thread, nor do I care that much. But am I wrong in saying..

That the plane will take off. The wheels are not what provide the power, but the jets. And since the jets propel the plane forward, it doesn't matter what is below it. The plane will move forward and take off, right?

Tyler

[Kaiser]

Drag is friction...

Yes, but people don't pay attention to that. The answer is: The treadmill wouldn't move because the wheels on the plane are free-rolling. It doesn't matter what speed the ground is moving at, Indicated Air Speed determines take-off time, and IAS is regardless of groundspeed. If you had a 150 knot tail wind, you'd have issues taking off, and if you have a 150 knot headwind, most private aircraft could take-off without moving, VTOL style. This myth only exists because people think airplanes taxiing moves like a car does.

[Ruiner]

I didn't read this whole thread, nor do I care that much. But am I wrong in saying..

That the plane will take off. The wheels are not what provide the power, but the jets. And since the jets propel the plane forward, it doesn't matter what is below it. The plane will move forward and take off, right?

Tyler

You are 100% correct. The wheels need to be free-rolling as well...

[Thighs]

it will take off. i promise.

100 bucks.

[kingkong]

it will take off. i promise.

100 bucks.

x2

[IDCoconut]

Dude that's that same as saying a 747 will take off without jets...

[Schugg]

im not sure i read it right, but sounds impossible to me. a plane cannot take out with wind resistance/force whatever you want to call it. wind is what cause the plane to be able to lift. the motors have nothing to do with a plane lifting, they just give it the speed to cause enough lift with the wind. but like i said i dont know if i read it right, if a plane is on a conveyor type thing and isnt moving its not getting any wind force to cause lift so its just going sit there with jets at ful thrust trying to take off when it cant

edit: i re-read some of it, but either way, its not going to take off unless it has an actual foward motion. if its just rolling in one spot, going through the actions of taking off it wont. why would mythbusters even waste their time with this.

[IDCoconut]

lol

what gives it forward motion buddy? the thrusters. so if the plane was at full thrust, why would it not move forward? the wheels has a measely effect on the forward thrust of the plan on a conveyor belt matching the plains GROUND SPEED.

[Schugg]

i didnt say anything about wheels, but if the thruster can push it fast enough to go its original ground speed on the converyor that will cause it to be going fast enough on the conveyor, to where you can stand by it off the conveyor, then if they can push it ontop of that to go double its original ground speed thats what it will take to get it to start moving and take off. if it can do that it can take off.

[JConner]

if you people watch this simple video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopV...eature=related

you will see that the plane will take off

edit: if you dont understand what the piece of tape is for that holds the plane from falling off the treadmill look at this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siYQU...eature=related

[JConner]

oh and here is version II of that guys video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4owly...eature=related

[Schugg]

i error, in my post, it wont have to double its thruster put out force.....i got it now, wheels will just have to spin at twice the original speed. i was getting there, whhhatttttever!

[Killswitch Performance]

oh and here is version II of that guys video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4owly...eature=related

Cool vid. All he would have had to do was strap a bottle rocket to that sucker. Would have taken off then.

Tyler

[Ruiner]

~2 weeks left...Jan 30th (Wednesday)

[Ruiner]

Sneak peak from the episode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSBFQOfas60

[Frög]

im just going to watch it to see how they set up the experiment..

HAHAH cant beleive 44% voted "NO" america really is slow..

[Frög]

ahh i see now..

[speedminded]

ahh, novel idea...pull the fabric with a truck so it acts as a conveyor. Told you even the pilot would get it wrong

[thepolecat]

It's simple physics. The plane. the plane must have air moving over the wings to create LIFT- Not just have wheels moving really fast.

[speedminded]

It's simple physics. The plane. the plane must have air moving over the wings to create LIFT- Not just have wheels moving really fast.

You saying lift won't be created?

[man]

ahh, novel idea...pull the fabric with a truck so it acts as a conveyor. Told you even the pilot would get it wrong

LOL @ the pilot.

[umairejaz]

Will fly without a problem. I've written this in my schedule, I really don't want to miss it.

[Echonova]

My prediction: The fabric or the rope holding it will break.

[Evil Goat]

heres my problem with the mythbusters stuff....and i dont care what its going to do, to me its one of those what came first? the chicken or the egg questions...i just dont give a ****, but....

shouldnt the small scale match the large scale? obviously the answers yes...so then why have the small scale on an actual conveyor where the weight of the model plane doesnt press the conveyor belt itself against the underlying supports and then have a large scale where essentially the conveyor is laying flat on the underlying support (the ground) and being pulled that way....just seems to me the plane in the large scale is merely taking off on a run way while someone pulls a bed sheet under it....not that intelligent if you ask me....that doesnt create a conveyor of any type....to match them they should pull the same sheet under the small scale plane as well


i can see where a plan can take off once it overcomes the initial friction of being on a conveyor, but im still confused as to how a plane, sitting stationary if the plane is matching the speed of the belt is going to create lift, and thus take off

[speedminded]

heres my problem with the mythbusters stuff....and i dont care what its going to do, to me its one of those what came first? the chicken or the egg questions...i just dont give a ****, but....

shouldnt the small scale match the large scale? obviously the answers yes...so then why have the small scale on an actual conveyor where the weight of the model plane doesnt press the conveyor belt itself against the underlying supports and then have a large scale where essentially the conveyor is laying flat on the underlying support (the ground) and being pulled that way....just seems to me the plane in the large scale is merely taking off on a run way while someone pulls a bed sheet under it....not that intelligent if you ask me....that doesnt create a conveyor of any type....to match them they should pull the same sheet under the small scale plane as well


i can see where a plan can take off once it overcomes the initial friction of being on a conveyor, but im still confused as to how a plane, sitting stationary if the plane is matching the speed of the belt is going to create lift, and thus take off

There is no initial friction that you yourself pushing that airplane with your own hands couldn't overcome.

How is the fabric being pulled any different than the belt on a conveyor? It's still moving parallel to the ground just as the belt would.

[Nittanys1]

^^^wow here we go again!!!

thanks for the youtube link Ruiner!!!! I cant wait

[Evil Goat]

There is no initial friction that you yourself pushing that airplane with your own hands couldn't overcome.

How is the fabric being pulled any different than the belt on a conveyor? It's still moving parallel to the ground just as the belt would.

now that i compare the two, although they work differently, they work the same...thats an invalid argument i didnt think out

and i probably worded it wrong, its not so much friction i guess, b/c friction is minimal at best and only through the wheels....if the conveyor matches the speed of the plane then the plane has to overcome the speed in order to move forward and create lift...so if the plane and the conveyors speed are matched then how does the plane create lift?

its like running on a treadmill....you can run all day long but you'll never feel a breeze....same concept with a plane correct?

[speedminded]

now that i compare the two, although they work differently, they work the same...thats an invalid argument i didnt think out

and i probably worded it wrong, its not so much friction i guess, b/c friction is minimal at best and only through the wheels....if the conveyor matches the speed of the plane then the plane has to overcome the speed in order to move forward and create lift...so if the plane and the conveyors speed are matched then how does the plane create lift?

its like running on a treadmill....you can run all day long but you'll never feel a breeze....same concept with a plane correct?

Re-read the question then listen again to what exactly Adam said...the speed of the plane...a planes speed is measured by air speed, not how fast it's wheels are spinning. If the plane is moving 50mph then it's moving 50mph, it doesn't matter how fast the conveyor is below it.

With that said if the plane is moving at 50mph and the "conveyor belt" is moving the opposite direction at 50mph then the wheels are spinning at 100mph...

[Evil Goat]

very true, and let me be straight forward, im not arguing, i dont know the answer, but its intriguing now, and for someone who can explain it to me would be great....but lets say its a prop plane....the prop is what pulls the plane forward, correct? and i dont care anything about the wheels...the wheels could be spinning 10000000mph for all i care.....if the planes stationary then what produces lift?

-if the plane sits dead and the conveyor is turned on it will not stay stationary
-if the plane matches the speed by pulling itself forward to match the conveyors speed it will be stationary creating no lift
-if the plane does not match, but has less pull than the conveyor it will slowly move backwards
-if the plane overcomes the speed of the conveyor at a speed fast enough to create appropriate lift then obviously its gone

im seeing the logic here (to me anyway, lol), but noone to explain exactly why a plane, that would be stationary from, lets say, my point of view on the ground, would be able to create any lift, let alone substantial enough lift for the plane to take off

[JConner]

haha Neal Boortz was talking about this subject last week sometime and said something about watching Mythbusters for a whole hour a while back when they were supposed to do the experiment and was pissed they never did it! He mentioned that he didnt know when they planned on doing it and I called up and got to tell him live on the air tht it would be happening Jan 30th and chatted for a few seconds. It was cool.

[Evil Goat]

haha Neal Boortz was talking about this subject last week sometime and said something about watching Mythbusters for a whole hour a while back when they were supposed to do the experiment and was pissed they never did it! He mentioned that he didnt know when they planned on doing it and I called up and got to tell him live on the air tht it would be happening Jan 30th and chatted for a few seconds. It was cool.

great story, i wanna hear it again, you got a few minutes?

[Ruiner]

but im still confused as to how a plane, sitting stationary if the plane is matching the speed of the belt is going to create lift, and thus take off

NOBODY is saying that a "stationary" plane is going to take off.

What we are saying is that when a plane applies the throttle to the prop, it will MOVE FORWARD on the treadmill, gain speed, and take off (given a long enough treadmill).

[Ruiner]

very true, and let me be straight forward, im not arguing, i dont know the answer, but its intriguing now, and for someone who can explain it to me would be great....but lets say its a prop plane....the prop is what pulls the plane forward, correct? and i dont care anything about the wheels...the wheels could be spinning 10000000mph for all i care.....if the planes stationary then what produces lift?

-if the plane sits dead and the conveyor is turned on it will not stay stationary
-if the plane matches the speed by pulling itself forward to match the conveyors speed it will be stationary creating no lift
-if the plane does not match, but has less pull than the conveyor it will slowly move backwards
-if the plane overcomes the speed of the conveyor at a speed fast enough to create appropriate lift then obviously its gone

im seeing the logic here (to me anyway, lol), but noone to explain exactly why a plane, that would be stationary from, lets say, my point of view on the ground, would be able to create any lift, let alone substantial enough lift for the plane to take off

If the plane has speed, it CANNOT be stationary as a plane's speed is air speed, not ground speed.

The plane WILL not sit stationary. That is what you need to understand. IF the plane is stationary from your point of view, it has NO air speed. If it has NO air speed, the treadmill will have NO speed. The treadmill matches the plane's speed. The plane will MOVE forward through the air (while on the ground) and THAT will create lift. The wheels of the plane will just be spinning faster than normal.

Here, just watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4owlyCOzDiE

Remember, EVEN if a plane is moving on the ground, it is still moving through the air and thus, has air speed.