Will the plane take off? v. Mythbusters!!! (VIDEO on Page 38)

[Jaimecbr900]

Shame, J. You should always vote with me.

I normally do, but I just don't see how they're going to get an ultra light to have enough thrust to overcome whatever treadmill they could possibly conjure up.

Like I said, I'm still really pondering the possibilities myself. Maybe I'll change my mind if I see more definite info about it all. As it stands now, there could be a lot of room for interpretation and hair splitting.

[speedminded]

I normally do, but I just don't see how they're going to get an ultra light to have enough thrust to overcome whatever treadmill they could possibly conjure up.

Your hands alone could easily overcome that, probably one hand

[DemonEyez]

The plane was supposed to be stationary as the ground under the treadmill, therefore NO AIRFLOW UNDER THE WINGS WHICH WOULD BE ESSENTIAL FOR LIFT, NOT FORWARD MOTION!
So, your variable states that if the plane was going faster than the belt on the treadmill, then yes it could take flight, (assuming it had enough power to propel itself to whatever speed it normally needs for takeoff on a runway, + the speed at which the treadmill is spinning at) Agreed, but that's not what the circumstances and plan are. Read the article. It states that the treadmill will spin at the SAME speed as what the plane would normally become airborne on a runway, therefore the plane would be stationary with no airflow under its wings. That's why and how it WOULDN'T lift off. Get it?

if the treadmill is moving at 100mph or 50000mph it wont matter. it only means the wheels on the plane are moving at that pace also. and the wheels are free spinning.

lets do that again

THE WHEELS ARE FREE SPINNING. Meaning they do not effect the air plane at all. so.. ANY.. and ALL threat generated by the engines on the WINGS of the plane will create thrust for the airplane and propel it forward. Again because the wheels have nothing to do with it and the wheels are the only point of contact with the treadmill.

Thus. treadmill moving forward with the plane, or backwards, or not moving has no effect. The only effect it may have is if it moves perpendicular to the direction the airplane needs to move.

I honestly cannot believe that people have yet to understand this simple concept.

Sigh.

[VooDooXII]

It's not quite as simple to grasp...it's actually sort of difficult to visualize.

Look at it this way. Imagine you're pushing a box that was on wheels with completely frictionless bearings.

Now imagine you were pushing a box that could magically levitate.

It's essentially the same effect. The wheels are there on a plane to help it move on the ground easily...that's it.

[Jecht]

[Jaimecbr900]

Your hands alone could easily overcome that, probably one hand

Yeah, but I have really strong hands.....

Seriously, if the plane's thrust can overcome the force of the treadmill, it will fly. I just have lots of questions about the details of how this is going to be done though. The rig itself will possibly contaminate the outcome in several ways.

I think it can fly, but I'm not sure that the "Mythbusters" will necessarily be able to show it. Let's see when the episode comes out.

[Jecht]

[IDCoconut]

Just think of a Sea Plane taking off a flowing river against its flow. It still takes off even if it has to fight the water flow. To say the least, a Sea Plane's floats has a lot more drag than unpowered, free-spinning wheels.

[Jecht]

[BuBBa DRiFT]

the plane will take off as long as the engine(s) can put out enough power to make the plane reach the lift off speed.

[Jecht]

the plane will take off as long as the engine(s) can put out enough power to make the plane reach the lift off speed.

[BABY J]

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/...&postcount=595

[VooDooXII]

Just think of a Sea Plane taking off a flowing river against its flow. It still takes off even if it has to fight the water flow. To say the least, a Sea Plane's floats has a lot more drag than unpowered, free-spinning wheels.

Nailed it

[Jecht]

What about a plane with anti-gravity?

[VooDooXII]

What about a plane with anti-gravity?

The hell is up with your posts today???

[d993s]

RIGHT, what the hell gives you the idea that a treadmill will effect the air that sits above it. Just because the treadmill is moving backwards, doesnt mean the air in free space is moving backwards as well. And IF that were the case, then the plane would actually generate MORE life.

Dumb.

Because, genius, you're not actually going anywhere when you're on a treadmill, no matter how fast the treadmill or the planes wheels are spinning. There is no air necessary for lift under the planes wings. Get it?

[On_Her_Face]

i love how there is name calling, that really proves ur point.. btw no lift

[speedminded]

Because, genius, you're not actually going anywhere when you're on a treadmill, no matter how fast the treadmill or the planes wheels are spinning. There is no air necessary for lift under the planes wings. Get it?

lolol, dude...WAKE UP!!! You still don't get it. What powers the plane? How does it propel itself? AIR! It forces the air through its turbine or propellor pushing/pulling itself forward. The treadmill under the the FREE ROLLING WHEELS is 100% irrelevent, has NO effect on the speed of the plane or it's ability to propel itself forward what so ever...it will only make the wheels spin faster.

[man]

i love how there is name calling, that really proves ur point.. btw no lift

Wrong cockboy, lol

[d993s]

the plane will take off as long as the engine(s) can put out enough power to make the plane reach the lift off speed.

Exactly. It has to reach takeoff speed regardless of relative to what's below it, whether its on a treadmill, runway, or water. Friction plays a small factor, but more importantly it's the lift necessary for it to elevate, and for that a certain speed is required in proportion to what's below the plane, unless of course we're factoring in a strong headwind which would then simulate a higher speed and allow takeoff at a much slower speed.

[d993s]

lolol, dude...WAKE UP!!! You still don't get it. What powers the plane? How does it propel itself? AIR! It forces the air through its turbine or propellor pushing/pulling itself forward. The treadmill under the the FREE ROLLING WHEELS is 100% irrelevent, has NO effect on the speed of the plane or it's ability to propel itself forward what so ever...it will only make the wheels spin faster.

Dude! You wake up!!! What keeps a plane in the air???? The air under its wings!
If that's not the case, remove the wings, because by your explanation the wings on a plane are not necessary for lift!
Again, we're not talking about a helicopter or Harrier Jet, or a plane with angled engines that create vertical lift!!!!!!!

[speedminded]

Imagine sitting on a skate board on a treadmill with a rope tied in front of you just like you're a waterskier or wake boarder...you can tie it to the couch or kitchen table, whatever. Now say the treadmill is turned on and you're holding onto the rope, will you fall off the back of the treadmill? You could sit there holding onto the rope with ONE finger and keep from falling off right? Now what if someone came up behind you and gave you a push....would they not be able to push you off the front of the treadmill? The force of their hand against you is no differant than the thrust from an airplanes engine...it doesn't matter that the ground below you is moving towards you because the wheels on a skate board, just like a airplane, are free spinning.

The plane will propel itself forward just like a regular runway, once it gets up to speed enough lift will be created under its wings to take off and fly.

[On_Her_Face]

Wrong cockboy, lol

jump in a fire. lol

[man]

Reading through the description on the website, something doesn't sound right. Sounds like they are gonna see if the plane will take off if it's held stationary on a treadmill that's moving backwards at takeoff speed.

[On_Her_Face]

Imagine sitting on a skate board on a treadmill with a rope tied in front of you just like you're a waterskier or wake boarder...you can tie it to the couch or kitchen table, whatever. Now say the treadmill is turned on and you're holding onto the rope, will you fall off the back of the treadmill? You could sit there holding onto the rope with ONE finger and keep from falling off right? Now what if someone came up behind you and gave you a push....would they not be able to push you off the front of the treadmill? The force of their hand against you is no differant than the thrust from an airplanes engine...it doesn't matter that the ground below you is moving towards you because the wheels on a skate board, just like a airplane, are free spinning.

The plane will propel itself forward just like a regular runway, once it gets up to speed enough lift will be created under its wings to take off and fly.

NO cause the treadmill would speed up to match the speed.

[speedminded]

Exactly. It has to reach takeoff speed regardless of relative to what's below it, whether its on a treadmill, runway, or water. Friction plays a small factor, but more importantly it's the lift necessary for it to elevate, and for that a certain speed is required in proportion to what's below the plane, unless of course we're factoring in a strong headwind which would then simulate a higher speed and allow takeoff at a much slower speed.

What is preventing the plane from MOVING forward, just like it is taking off on a runway?

[Ruiner]

Reading through the description on the website, something doesn't sound right. Sounds like they are gonna see if the plane will take off if it's sitting on a treadmill that's moving backwards at takeoff speed.

The plane will have to move forward.

What they will prove is that the treadmill cannot keep the plane from moving forward when it applies the throttle.

[man]

NO cause the treadmill would speed up to match the speed.

Here's a question for you:

If the treadmill matches the speed, and the plane is unable to move forward, will the treadmill ever move?

[Ruiner]

Dude! You wake up!!! What keeps a plane in the air???? The air under its wings!
If that's not the case, remove the wings, because by your explanation the wings on a plane are not necessary for lift!
Again, we're not talking about a helicopter or Harrier Jet, or a plane with angled engines that create vertical lift!!!!!!!

What he is saying is that the treadmill, even moving backwards, cannot stop the plane from moving forward, accelerating, and eventually reaching take-off speed.

The ONLY thing that the treadmill will do is spin the wheels. Nothing more.

[d993s]

Imagine sitting on a skate board on a treadmill with a rope tied in front of you just like you're a waterskier or wake boarder...you can tie it to the couch or kitchen table, whatever. Now say the treadmill is turned on and you're holding onto the rope, will you fall off the back of the treadmill? You could sit there holding onto the rope with ONE finger and keep from falling off right? Now what if someone came up behind you and gave you a push....would they not be able to push you off the front of the treadmill? The force of their hand against you is no differant than the thrust from an airplanes engine...it doesn't matter that the ground below you is moving towards you because the wheels on a skate board, just like a airplane, are free spinning.

The plane will propel itself forward just like a regular runway, once it gets up to speed enough lift will be created under its wings to take off and fly.

Yes, I agree it will move forward, but they state that the treadmill will be spinning at the same speed at which the plane will lift off on a runway.
In that scenario, it will NOT take off, because a planes engine provide FORWARD thrust, NOT VERTICAL LIFT, so it must rely on lift produced by air under its wings to lift off.

[Ruiner]

Here's a question for you:

If the treadmill matches the speed, and the plane is unable to move forward, will the treadmill ever move?

I always ask that question and it always leaves them stumped.

[man]

The plane will have to move forward.

What they will prove is that the treadmill cannot keep the plane from moving forward when it applies the throttle.

That's what I'm hoping, but something just caught me the wrong way.

[speedminded]

NO cause the treadmill would speed up to match the speed.

The treadmill can be going TEN TIMES the speed of the plane and it still won't matter, the wheels will only be spinning 10 times faster.

[On_Her_Face]

Here's a question for you:

If the treadmill matches the speed, and the plane is unable to move forward, will the treadmill ever move?

yep they will both be moving, but not distance wise..

side note: i got a gas mask with a tube connected to it and its the ****, if u know what im sayin

[Ruiner]

Yes, I agree it will move forward, but they state that the treadmill will be spinning at the same speed at which the plane will lift off on a runway.
In that scenario, it will NOT take off, because a planes engine provide FORWARD thrust, NOT VERTICAL LIFT, so it must rely on lift produced by air under its wings to lift off.

The plane will still accelerate to a take-off speed and take off. The only thing that the treadmill will do is spin the wheels.

If a plane is in the air, are the wheels spinning? Nope. If you get out on the wheel strut and manually spin them with your hand while the plane is in flight, will the plane stop mid-air? Nope.

The same concept holds true with the treadmill. It has no real affect on the plane.

[On_Her_Face]

The treadmill can be going TEN TIMES the speed of the plane and it still won't matter, the wheels will only be spinning 10 times faster.

it doesn't matter if the plane is doing 1000 mph there wont be lift cause the plane will be moving in place.

[Ruiner]

yep they will both be moving, but not distance wise..

side note: i got a gas mask with a tube connected to it and its the ****, if u know what im sayin

If the plane is not moving distance wise, it does not have any air speed. Is that a correct assumption given what you are saying?

[d993s]

What he is saying is that the treadmill, even moving backwards, cannot stop the plane from moving forward, accelerating, and eventually reaching take-off speed.

The ONLY thing that the treadmill will do is spin the wheels. Nothing more.

Ok, so then the plane will have to at least DOUBLE its power output, right? (Since the only speed that matters is the speed relative to the ground, which is the only way that air will pass under its wings fast enough to create lift).
Now I'm not sure how much throttle a plane requires for lift-off, but I assume somewhere around 80% or more..........

[speedminded]

Yes, I agree it will move forward, but they state that the treadmill will be spinning at the same speed at which the plane will lift off on a runway.
In that scenario, it will NOT take off, because a planes engine provide FORWARD thrust, NOT VERTICAL LIFT, so it must rely on lift produced by air under its wings to lift off.

Lift is automatically created when the plane is motion, the faster the planes goes the more lift that will be created...once it gets up to speed it will leave the ground.

[Ruiner]

it doesn't matter if the plane is doing 1000 mph there wont be lift cause the plane will be moving in place.

HOW can a plane be moving in place?!?!?

A plane is NOT like a car. It is not powered by its wheels. You HAVE TO UNDERSTAND that concept.