Gun Question

[Elbow]

I've recently started hearing more and more people say they "need" their assault rifles to protect themselves against the government.

Do many people feel this way? I laughed pretty hard at first and then saw someone was being serious.

How would your assault rifle protect you and why would the government take over? This isn't Nazi Germany, it's the United States in 2013. There's not even a valid reason for the government to "take over."

I could care less what's banned, just curious as to the reasoning behind this government protection.

[Sinfix_15]

The 2nd amendment is what secures all other amendments. If the 2nd falls, they all can fall. If ever you were going to trust a government, why would you trust them now? Nowhere in history did a people ever think to themselves "this is going to lead to our government turning on us, lets go ahead and do it anyways" nobody ever thought it could happen to them. We have an entire world history to look back on and let us know this is a bad idea.

"There's not even a valid reason for the government to take over"..... it's not like theyre going to storm our houses and put us all in chains....... why would they? when people like you are so willing to lay down for them. Funny you mention Nazi Germany as your example..... actually, this is a lot like Nazi Germany. You see, Hitler's best weapon wasnt a gun, wasnt a tank, wasnt a plane.... wasnt a bomb.... it was propaganda. This is the United states in 2013....... and there's a full fledged war going on right now.... every time you turn on your television. A government that could be trusted wouldnt ban guns.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb arguing over what's for dinner. When you put down your gun, you're the lamb.

[Elbow]

So who exactly is Obama going to use as the "bad guy" and who will follow him since most seem to hate him? Just in terms of Hitler talk.

[Elbow]

Oh and unless you have a VERY large stockpile of weapons and some training, how would a citizen hold off the US military?

HUGE HUGE HUGE difference in the US in 2013 and Germany during Hitler's time. I can't believe people even compare the two.

If we're going to change something lets edit freedom of speech and deport people who speak stupidly about things.

[Sinfix_15]

So who exactly is Obama going to use as the "bad guy" and who will follow him since most seem to hate him? Just in terms of Hitler talk.

Do you watch the news? The "bad guy" is clearly the republican party, which he attacks every time they put a mic in front of him.

he doesnt need anyone to "follow" him..... he's not assembling an army of liberals... lord knows you pussies are no threat to anyone. These guys follow him.

[Elbow]

I was looking for legitimate answers from knowledgeable people, you've done nothing, thanks for your time though.

What you said:

-Obama is like Hitler
-The bad guy is the republicans

You somehow think it's a war of democrats versus republicans?

[Sinfix_15]

Oh and unless you have a VERY large stockpile of weapons and some training, how would a citizen hold off the US military?

HUGE HUGE HUGE difference in the US in 2013 and Germany during Hitler's time. I can't believe people even compare the two.

If we're going to change something lets edit freedom of speech and deport people who speak stupidly about things.

speaking theoretically, why assume that 100% of the US military would unite vs it's people?

[Sinfix_15]

I was looking for legitimate answers from knowledgeable people, you've done nothing, thanks for your time though.

What you said:

-Obama is like Hitler
-The bad guy is the republicans

You somehow think it's a war of democrats versus republicans?

I hate this country.

you're right..... i'm just a dumb ass, no intelligent person would ever agree with me....

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson


"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." -Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.-Thomas Jefferson

Most bad government has grown out of too much government.-Thomas Jefferson

What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?-Thomas Jefferson

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.

[Sinfix_15]

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
- George Washington

[Sinfix_15]

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson

[Sinfix_15]

"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason

[Sinfix_15]

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe."
- Noah Webster

"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms."
- James Madison

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams

[Elbow]

I don't understand your quotes. I've read them all before.

I just don't see that as a valid reason for owning a gun. Self protection against criminals seems like a far more likely reason you would ever need a gun than fighting off your own government.

I also am willing to bet that guns will NEVER be banned in the US (completely banned) as I replied to in your PM.

I cannot take anyone serious that plays the democrat versus republican game or compares modern day America to Nazi Germany.

If the government took over today, what would happen? Citizens may fight back, some may surrender, and other countries would probably get involved. If they came knocking at my door I'd shoot myself before I shot a bullet at them though. It's not even worth thinking about though because there's no indication or reasoning behind it happening.

Other countries have a ban on weapons and they do just fine. Do I think weapons should be banned? No. I believe in more control but definitely not a ban on guns. I've yet to meet anyone that does, even the most liberal people I've met don't believe in a total ban.

These types of things happen after every man made disaster. After 9/11 it was Bush who did it, FEMA camps were being setup four US citizens, kill camps, etc. It was all about the New World Order and all this BS just as now after shootings fingers are pointed and conspiracies are made although when you sit back for a second and think rationally half of what you read online is just so stupid.

[Sinfix_15]

I cant take anyone serious who says they would shoot themselves before defending themselves.

[Browning151]

I don't understand your quotes. I've read them all before.

I just don't see that as a valid reason for owning a gun. Self protection against criminals seems like a far more likely reason you would ever need a gun than fighting off your own government.

If you can't understand those quotes then you need to study some history. Put very simply; One man with a gun can control 100 without one. What mechanism do you have to stop your gov't if the public is disarmed? The ballot box? Ha, that won't exist anymore once the public is disarmed. The FEAR of a public uprising keeps gov't in check, just like the fear of jail keeps most citizens in check.

I also am willing to bet that guns will NEVER be banned in the US (completely banned) as I replied to in your PM.

An outright ban on guns? No, probably not. Will they put restriction upon restriction until it is beyond practicality to own one? If they continue with the current logic that's where we're headed.

[.blank cd]

If you can't understand those quotes then you need to study some history.

I'm pretty astute when it comes to history and I recognize that most of these quotes are either taken out of context or otherwise irrelevant. Additionally, the comparison between Modern day US government and any kind of übernationalist dictatorial regimes; be it Hitlers Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Russia is simply far from historically accurate. It's like comparing apples to chicken

Put very simply; One man with a gun can control 100 without one.

This is laughable at best.

The FEAR of a public uprising keeps gov't in check, just like the fear of jail keeps most citizens in check.

...and yet the percentage of incarcerated people continues to rise, to the point that we have the highest number of prisons per capita, and the highest number of incarcerated people per capita in the world

Will they put restriction upon restriction until it is beyond practicality to own one? If they continue with the current logic that's where we're headed.

No. We aren't headed that way.

[Browning151]

I'm pretty astute when it comes to history and I recognize that most of these quotes are either taken out of context or otherwise irrelevant. Additionally, the comparison between Modern day US government and any kind of übernationalist dictatorial regimes; be it Hitlers Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Russia is simply far from historically accurate. It's like comparing apples to chicken

Put them in context for us so that we may properly understand.

This is laughable at best.

How so? An armed individual can't assert a disproportionate amount of control over unarmed people? BTW that quote is attributed to Lenin, you know, that communist (or marxist, whichever you prefer) guy. A gov't can't assert supreme control over an armed populace. Am I saying that our current president or gov't is communist in nature? No, but there are plenty of people out there that would like to see us headed that way, and baby steps with small regulations are the best way for them to get there. The first step is getting the camels nose under the tent.

...and yet the percentage of incarcerated people continues to rise, to the point that we have the highest number of prisons per capita, and the highest number of incarcerated people per capita in the world

......and your point is? What would we look like without the fear of repercussions when breaking the law?
(BTW, how many of those people are incarcerated for non violent drug offenses? I disagree with most of the war on drugs mentality and that would curb a lot of the incarceration rate.)

No. We aren't headed that way.

Once again, get the camels nose under the tent. If you do things in such small increments that most people don't notice what your end game is you can accomplish nearly anything.

At what point do you say enough is enough with regulation? High cap magazine regulations? Ok. Then the next tragedy comes along and they say we need to limit the number of magazines a person can own since this guy had 52 magazines on him. They were all legal but he had too many. Ok, new law limiting the number that you can own. Then the next tragedy comes along, the bullets he had were too powerful we must limit personal firearms to nothing more powerful than a .22 magnum.......and so on, and so on until they regulate them out of existence without actually banning them. If you think things can't be accomplished this way just look at coal fired power plants for an example, they haven't outright banned them but they've regulated them so heavily that they are becoming increasingly difficult to operate and are being shut down. Think they can't approach gun control the same way?

[Sinfix_15]

I'm pretty astute when it comes to history and I recognize that most of these quotes are either taken out of context or otherwise irrelevant. Additionally, the comparison between Modern day US government and any kind of übernationalist dictatorial regimes; be it Hitlers Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Russia is simply far from historically accurate. It's like comparing apples to chicken

This is laughable at best.

...and yet the percentage of incarcerated people continues to rise, to the point that we have the highest number of prisons per capita, and the highest number of incarcerated people per capita in the world

No. We aren't headed that way.

Look around the world at every tyrant dictator in power....... then realize that even those people have supporters.

In america those supporters look like this....




The irony in the matter is that the people who should be most warned about an oppressive government are those who are most willingly volunteering more power to their government.

[.blank cd]

Put them in context for us so that we may properly understand.

I'm at work at the moment, but if you'd like me to break down every one of those quotes into historical context, I'll have to do it when I get home.

How so? An armed individual can't assert a disproportionate amount of control over unarmed people?

Control is only psychological.

Am I saying that our current president or gov't is communist in nature? No, but there are plenty of people out there that would like to see us headed that way, and baby steps with small regulations are the best way for them to get there...
...If you do things in such small increments that most people don't notice what your end game is you can accomplish nearly anything

are you suggesting its in the US governments best interest to take baby steps to full on communism?

At what point do you say enough is enough with regulation?

Have you looked at any successful private civilian gun regulation in the past 10-20 years?

[.blank cd]

Look around the world at every tyrant dictator in power....... then realize that even those people have supporters.

In america those supporters look like this....

You make it increasingly difficult to take you seriously. In political discussion, you are the equivalent of a fundamentalist Christian.

[Sinfix_15]

You make it increasingly difficult to take you seriously. In political discussion, you are the equivalent of a fundamentalist Christian.

Christians argue with fairy tales....... our country's history is not a fairy tale. The fairy tale is that gun laws will somehow prevent crime. What Bible are you reading THAT from? Chicago's murder statistics?

[Sinfix_15]

Crime rate is higher in every place that has an elevated population of african americans. Lets ban african americans!!!!!!

I use this as a sarcastic example of the argument against guns..... but in reality, my sarcastic argument holds more truth than the one being applied to guns.

[Vteckidd]

I've recently started hearing more and more people say they "need" their assault rifles to protect themselves against the government.

Do many people feel this way? I laughed pretty hard at first and then saw someone was being serious.

How would your assault rifle protect you and why would the government take over? This isn't Nazi Germany, it's the United States in 2013. There's not even a valid reason for the government to "take over."

I could care less what's banned, just curious as to the reasoning behind this government protection.

Its a baseless argument the Right uses to push their agenda, much like banning guns solves crime problems which the left pushes.

I dont think anyone can make a rational argument that they need an AR15 to combat a tyrannical govt. That war was lost 70 years ago

[Vteckidd]

IMO

The argument needs to stick to the FACTS, the facts are that Banning or restricting guns solves NOTHING in regards to gun violence. NOTHING. There is study after study after study that proves it. Columbine happened during the AW Ban, it happened with low capacity mags IIRC, Newtown was committed by a person who STOLE a gun from a LEGAL owner. The laws they are proposing will not solve anything.

When you start arguing this "Need to protect my from da guberment" crap, 1) its not believable 2) it makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist 3) You lost that fight years ago when the govt invented Nukes and Drones and MOTHERFUCKING JET PLANES.

You have to convince an irrational portion of people that youre right, STICK TO RATIONAL PRACTICAL FACTS.

[Sinfix_15]

Its a baseless argument the Right uses to push their agenda, much like banning guns solves crime problems which the left pushes.

I dont think anyone can make a rational argument that they need an AR15 to combat a tyrannical govt. That war was lost 70 years ago

Where does it stop? What do you do when you cant make an argument for or against something?

why do we need cars that go over 55? why do we need portions of food bigger than 500 calories? why do we need yards bigger than a 1/2 acre? why do we need more money? More people drown a year than they do from AR15 fire, do we ban swimming? Do we ban sports on account of injury? Most wars are fought over religious beliefs, ban religion? ban sky diving? ban drinking? The 2nd amendment is so important because it's the foundation of all amendments.

"i prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery" - Thomas Jefferson.

[Vteckidd]

Where does it stop? What do you do when you cant make an argument for or against something?

why do we need cars that go over 55? why do we need portions of food bigger than 500 calories? why do we need yards bigger than a 1/2 acre? why do we need more money? More people drown a year than they do from AR15 fire, do we ban swimming? Do we ban sports on account of injury? Most wars are fought over religious beliefs, ban religion? ban sky diving? ban drinking? The 2nd amendment is so important because it's the foundation of all amendments.

"i prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery" - Thomas Jefferson.

you missed my previous post or didnt read it.

I never said we should ban or outlaw anything, what im saying is youll NEVER win that argument, and if you think about it rationally, there is ZERO chance the military decides to go door to door to take arms and we end up back in 1776.

Seriously.

I equate an all out arms ban or needing an AR15 to defend myself against the govt to about the chances i have at winning the lottery twice in the same month. It just simply WONT happen. its not even close. States would secede from the Union FIRST before that even happened. Military is historically PRO GOP, the ban would go toward the SC first, etc. So many checks and balances. To me it sounds like the whole NWO conspiracy theory, its just not based in reality.

The fact are that banning or restricting guns doesnt solve anything, leave it at that. I am in favor of the current restrictions we have like no auto weapons to the public without Class 3, no grenades or munitions, etc. No need to go past that.

To answer your other argument, if the founding fathers had a constitutional amendment that said "thou shalt never have thy right to go 300 mph infringed upon" then you could make a case against speed limits. Currently , no one NEEDS a 500whp GTR, but we sell one, and we regulate its emissions, and its speed on the roads via traffic laws.

you also have to realize that the founding fathers worst enemy was a musket that could maybe fire 2 shots a minute, not the 100 rounds per second guns we have now. They designed the constitution to be a living breathing thing that evolves with the times, i think our current restrictions are in line with that thinking

[Browning151]

I'm at work at the moment, but if you'd like me to break down every one of those quotes into historical context, I'll have to do it when I get home.

Knock yourself out.

Control is only psychological.

Up until the point someone resists and is met with a bullet from said armed individual.

are you suggesting its in the US governments best interest to take baby steps to full on communism?

It is in any gov'ts interest to gain as much power as possible, and also what leads to nearly every gov'ts eventual demise.

Have you looked at any successful private civilian gun regulation in the past 10-20 years?

Have you seen some of the statements being made lately toward gun control?

[Vteckidd]

why do we need cars that go over 55? why do we need portions of food bigger than 500 calories? why do we need yards bigger than a 1/2 acre? why do we need more money? More people drown a year than they do from AR15 fire, do we ban swimming? Do we ban sports on account of injury? Most wars are fought over religious beliefs, ban religion? ban sky diving? ban drinking? The 2nd amendment is so important because it's the foundation of all amendments.

If people started stealing corvettes and driving through classrooms to murder 30 people at a time, or started kidnapping people and wholesale drowning them in backyard pools, then yeah, im sure people would try to ban or restrict that stuff.

Sports is voluntary, if you dont want to get injured playing basketball you dont play basketball. if you dont want to get fat, dont eat 500 calories worth of candy.

One cannot simply choose to NOT get shot its out of your control, which is why its a crime.

Now youre equating choices of lifestyle with crime. Doesnt make sense

[.blank cd]

]Up until the point someone resists and is met with a bullet from said armed individual.

If you're faced with 100 capable people and you have fully loaded gun, you are going to lose that battle, my friend. Simple as that.

It is in any gov'ts interest to gain as much power as possible, and also what leads to nearly every gov'ts eventual demise.

What do you believe is absolute power in a democratic capitalist society?

Have you seen some of the statements being made lately toward gun control?

Yes I have, a lot of people think (falsely) that any measure to further regulate the sale of guns in an effort to lower the staggering amount of gun crime/accidents in the US is equivalent to an outright ban and complete nullification of the 2nd amendment, and that we have some kind of tyrannical oppressive leader and a government system capable of accomplishing something like that. The idea is unfathomable.

[Browning151]

When you start arguing this "Need to protect my from da guberment" crap, 1) its not believable 2) it makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist 3) You lost that fight years ago when the govt invented Nukes and Drones and MOTHERFUCKING JET PLANES.

You have to convince an irrational portion of people that youre right, STICK TO RATIONAL PRACTICAL FACTS.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any means, nor do I subscribe to the idea that they are going to come door to door taking weapons and each individual needs to be armed to fight them off, but when a government exerts its power to the point of becoming oppressive how do you stop it? Pitch forks and spades? Do you believe that the gov't of the U.S. can never reach the point of oppression that it needs to be overthrown? I'm not advocating that it needs to be done now, or even in any of our lifetimes, but that time may come sometime in the future and the rights that grant us the ability to do so need to be preserved. It's one of the founding principles of this country.

[Browning151]

If you're faced with 100 capable people and you have fully loaded gun, you are going to lose that battle, my friend. Simple as that.

Taken literally you'd be correct. The idea is that few with guns can control many with none.

What do you believe is absolute power in a democratic capitalist society?

Therein lies the problem, there are many who openly disagree with the capitalist model and want this country to look more like socialist Europe. Change capitalist with socialist and you have an entirely different ball game.

Yes I have, a lot of people think (falsely) that any measure to further regulate the sale of guns in an effort to lower the staggering amount of gun crime/accidents in the US is equivalent to an outright ban and complete nullification of the 2nd amendment, and that we have some kind of tyrannical oppressive leader and a government system capable of accomplishing something like that. The idea is unfathomable.

I don't think that current regulations would be an outright ban and nullification of the 2A, but could it be the first step toward it? Sure. Is it? Maybe not, but I'd rather not find out the hard way if it is or isn't. I also didn't say that we have some tyrannical oppressive leader, but the idea of our government over reaching it's limits is not unfathomable. It may never happen in my lifetime, or my kids, or even my grandkids, but at some point it may happen and the rights to defend against it should be preserved.

[Vteckidd]

any measure to further regulate the sale of guns in an effort to lower the staggering amount of gun crime/accidents in the US is equivalent to an outright ban and complete nullification of the 2nd amendment, and that we have some kind of tyrannical oppressive leader and a government system capable of accomplishing something like that. The idea is unfathomable.

Gun crime is historically falling across the board. Its declined year over year for quite some time. The places that dont have guns like NY and Chicago actually see increased gun violence.

but i agree with the last part of your statement. I think anyone that doesnt even want to discuss some sort of measures, just have the conversation, is being prohibitive

[.blank cd]

Taken literally you'd be correct. The idea is that few with guns can control many with none.

Thats completely up to the people being controlled.

Therein lies the problem, there are many who openly disagree with the capitalist model and want this country to look more like socialist Europe. Change capitalist with socialist and you have an entirely different ball game.

IIRC, most countries in Europe are pretty capitalist too. They may enjoy other freedoms than you do, but the structure is pretty similar. But then you're also talking about a different culture and way of life. And I'm very hesitant to throw the world socialism around cause a lot of people really don't know what it means. They heard that tax increases on wealthy people and universal health care is socialism from someone on Fox News or some other conservative opinion blog and since 'tax increases' and 'socialism' sound pretty evil, then that's what it must mean.

[.blank cd]

Gun crime is historically falling across the board. Its declined year over year for quite some time. The places that dont have guns like NY and Chicago actually see increased gun violence.

it may be falling at some rate, but we're in a developed country that has unprecedented access to guns and extremely lax regulations. What's even more unsettling is the culture that surrounds the issue, the notion that you're absolutely defenseless if you don't carry, and that some people think guns are some kind of efficient everyday problem solver.

[CSquared]

Im a liberal who carries a 9mm. The typical gun owner arguments sound absolutely ridiculous to me. I just want the damn thing to defend my family and property from intruders or anyone else who intends to do me harm. The government (red, blue or otherwise) is not out to get you.

The right to bear arms will not go away... It'll just become increasing hard to purchase (between taxes and additional requirements). For example, in NY the process to qualify for a gun permit was so annoying that I wouldn't have bothered. I think it takes up to 6 months. You should expect the same to become true in GA at some point, and I can't say I disagree with that method of discouragment.

[Elbow]

Im a liberal who carries a 9mm. The typical gun owner arguments sound absolutely ridiculous to me. I just want the damn thing to defend my family and property from intruders or anyone else who intends to do me harm. The government (red, blue or otherwise) is not out to get you.

The right to bear arms will not go away... It'll just become increasing hard to purchase (between taxes and additional requirements). For example, in NY the process to qualify for a gun permit was so annoying that I wouldn't have bothered. I think it takes up to 6 months. You should expect the same to become true in GA at some point, and I can't say I disagree with that method of discouragment.

This.

[Echonova]

Ever notice how laws only affect law-abiding citizens?


Weird.

[Andr3w]

FBI: More People Killed with Hammers, Clubs Each Year Than Rifles | Gun Rights | Fox Nation

[Elbow]

How did this turn into a gun rights thread? It was simply asking about the government being the main reason people want assault rifles. lol

[.blank cd]

FBI: More People Killed with Hammers, Clubs Each Year Than Rifles | Gun Rights | Fox Nation

Fox Nation. The kings of issue deflection.