CRXseven rant:

[ash7]

WHY ON EARTH ARE PEOPLE SO QUICK TO DISCOUNT NA NON-VTEC SETUPS?!

it pisses me off to no end

everyone always screams and shouts VTEC FOR THE MOTHER F'N WIN and then they'll sit there and rip on the boys who prefer to drive without it. "why the crap would you want do do a build without vtec? you can get so much more power without it" because nobody does them you retards

Don't people realize that with the right LS setup you can achieve a hp/tq band that FAR surpasses a vtec setup? Yes, it may cost more, and be more cost effective to just slap a ls/vtec together... but what is the fun with that?! Some people prefer a challenge. I love the nonvtecSOHC na setups that eat built GSRs for breakfast at the track. That always puts a smile on my face... almost makes me want to drop an LS head on my block and swap in my Rocket custom grinds just to shut some mouths around here....

good grief people, it's not always about peak power output...

/rant

-jonathan

[Cato ED-6]

My thoughts exactly.

I'm a fan of the "Old School" ways. My next build will be a "no power-adders" build.
No vtec, no forced induction, and no bottle. 300hp goal.

[bigdare23]

My thoughts exactly.

I'm a fan of the "Old School" ways. My next build will be a "no power-adders" build.
No vtec, no forced induction, and no bottle. 300hp goal.

That's impossible unless your name is Bisi

[ash7]

^ you had better start start reading up on K24s my friend.

but even then, you couldn't use the TSX k24 because it has vtec...
-jonathan

[Konstantin]

Doable. George Goude. One of his personal cars. NA. Non v-tec. SOHC (if i remember right). INSANE power output.

Friend of mine talked for awhile to him about it. CRAZY results. WOuld not tell him exactly how he built it.

[bigdare23]

300hp n/a on a non-vtec motor is not possible unless your a hellva engineer!!!


Let's see, you can't use a d-series motor so you're left with the F-series or B-series. Then you dont want vtec, so you're limited to b18a/b, b20b/z, f22, and f20 (I might of lefted out a non-vtec motor). If you can pull 300hp out of one of those motor allmotor, then you're great! It's hard to get upper 200hp out of B-series vtec motors and they flow much better than non-vtec motors. If you did get that much power you're not driving it except on the drag strip because its not running on pump gas, **** it's not running on gasoline LOL.

[Cato ED-6]

That's impossible unless your name is Bisi

I've seen it done before...

[slow_hatch]

Well before I went turbo, I thought really hard about an all motor LS build. Big cams/ITBs/B16 tranny. But after many hours of research I came to the conclusion that boosting the LS was the way I would go. I give credit to all those who commit to building an N/A non vtec motor, you definatly will be unique now days. It would be a different kind of power. VTEC will always be superior though

[jfrolang]

Once upon a time, I wanted an all motor screamer. I had my build planned to a T. Unfortunately I was broke, and over the years I decided that turbo is far easier and less expensive than a balls-out NA build. Let me share what I learned about all motor builds.

If you look at killer NA builds, you might find a pattern. What I saw is that basically nobody can achieve better than 150hp/liter regardless of the engine or VTEC or whatever. 150/liter is the upper limit unless you go to methanol or race fuel, but neither of those options are good for a street driven car. With a B20 built to the walls, that would put you right about 300 hp.

But here's the problem with a non-VTEC build. You don't necessarily have a disadvantage at high RPM compared to VTEC engines, you just need to use parts (cams, oversize valves, ported head, etc.) that will allow you to get lots of air in at high engine speeds. The problem comes in at low RPM on a non-VTEC optimized for high RPM. In a street car, you could make a 'tolerable' idle while placing the upper limit around 8500 RPM. If you push the power band any higher your low end will fall apart, and it's this that will largely limit how much power you can make. The beauty of VTEC is that you have two cam profiles available to you, and can make more power across the range, and thus more 'area under the curve.'

[ash7]

^absolutely correct

there is pride in the build however,

...if i may compare FI -vs- NA to a couple superheros for a second...
(bear with me, it's late, and I'm tired)

FI = Spiderman, very very fast and can outrun just about anything...

NA = The Hulk.... breaks down walls and flips semis over just for a morning workout before his morning coffee. Just raw power, not the fastest... but a beast of a car.

I'm not even sure that made any sense, I'm going to bed...

-jonathan

[Papa_Smurf]

lol that didn't really make sense, even after you edited it

[KevinT707]

.. VTEC FTW

[jfrolang]

I think you have it backwards. I'd sooner compare all motor to Batman, he does amazing things without any genetic enhancements. Turbo is The Hulk, with amazing power waiting to be unleashed. A supercharger is Superman, an all around great performer. Nitrous is the Flash.

[EvasiveEF9]

...ya'll....are....special...

Yeah, I mean it's nice to see NVTEC builds...but the VTEC design is amazing for what it does and can acheive. It was ACTUALLY originally designed by Ford back in like...oh...****...1970's? Ford designed it...I think to compete with the Hemi. Don't quote me. Anyways, they designed it and never REALLY ran with it. I think there was another company that reintroduced it, and eventually, Honda Motor Co. was coined with "inventing it". Since then, Honda, Toyota, Nissan (I think), Ford, and a few other companies use it...but obviously they don't call it "VTEC".

If so many companies are doing it, it MUST be a hell of a design for everyone to invest in their own version.

Don't get me wrong...I drive an LS. I love NVTEC. But...the VTEC design will be superior. Invest a grand in LSVTEC...or...****...any VTEC design, and it will do more than the NVTEC 1grand$ build. Obviously...this is Turbo/Nitrous aside.

As stated earlier...VTEC allows the builder to have the valve timing set for lower-RPM and higher-RPM power/flow.

It's a great design. Even if I don't drive it.

[bigdare23]

what the hell is nvtec LOL



If some wants to be different build a 1.5hf motor 8valves ftw!!!!

[EvasiveEF9]

It's nonvtec. I'm on a laptop, though. And I hate typing on laptops...

[jfrolang]

Ford didn't invent VTEC. Several companies experimented with variable valve technology, and GM even mass produced a version. (Remember the Cadillac 4-6-8?) None of them were able to achieve much with it.

It was Honda that simplified the design to only one moving part and brought it to market with real advantages.

There's pretty much no company left that doesn't have their own version of it now.

[EvasiveEF9]

I'd rep you if I could...but I can't....

Thanks for the more-accurate info...

[ash7]

I think you have it backwards. I'd sooner compare all motor to Batman, he does amazing things without any genetic enhancements. Turbo is The Hulk, with amazing power waiting to be unleashed. A supercharger is Superman, an all around great performer. Nitrous is the Flash.

Batman has all kinds of "bolt ons" to make him super... much like a turbo. You can pull 300hp out of a stock block LS as long as you have the proper charger and all the necessary equipment.

Genetic enhancements are what MAKE an all motor beast... rebuilding it from the inside out. I stick with the Hulk anyday.


And just to clear things up... BMW used the very first type of variable valve technology in the engine chosen to power the German Focke Wolf 190A-8 waaaaaaay back in 1939.

BMW is still the world leader in variable valve tech. with their VANOS system they've employed in just about all their vehicles since the late 50s. Even Hondas I-Vtec isn't as complex as the latest version. Everyone has been playing catch up ever since. (yes... even honda...*sigh*)

-jonathan

[jfrolang]

For the record, I feel that Honda's upcoming Advanced VTEC (or A-VTEC as it will be known) trumps BMW's VANOS, especially in simplicity of operation.

AND... Batman has a ton of tricks up his sleeve, just like a slick all motor build. He doesn't need artificial enhancement (boost) to overwhelm his opponents. That's the way I see it anyway.

[EvasiveEF9]

LoLoL...superhero's vs. cars.

Anyone gonna bring xmen into it?

Can't say I've heard of BMW being the ones to start variable timing...but I can't say I'm surprised. BMW has always been one of the main leaders in automotive technology.