The disaster WAS bush's fault with PROOF

[4dmin]

You're right, your first comment was on page 5, not 7. I think my point still stands.

And, as for your second comment, you do know that New Orleans is in Louisiana, and the seat of the federal government is DC, right? So this doesn't help your case when you say you were blaming the local governments first.

In this thread, you went right for Bush, and had nobody called you on it, you would have stayed there.

Do we really need to have a discussion about how many times you were wrong or shown to be misinformed in this thread? 'empty sarin canister' ring a bell?

page 5? nice try #33 post was on page 2.

by the way you want to talk about your sarin gas canister again... let me guess you think it was full, did you happen to read it was a shell they found??? what is a shell??? ok must of been full :jerkit:

"It was a weapon that we believe was stocked from the ex-regime time and it had been thought to be an ordinary artillery shell set up to explode like an ordinary IED and basically from the detection of that and when it exploded, it indicated that it actually had some sarin in it," Kimmitt said.

[malfeas99]

page 5? nice try #33 post was on page 2.

Post #33 was on page 3 (for me at least) and didn't mention anything about the local governments:

Bush is a fucking idiot and i think his lack of resolution for the on going problem is a disgrace for everything we as americans stand for... we have a region now that is just as bad if not worse off then a 3rd world country

http://forums.importatlanta.com/sho...0190#post280190

^ read this

** Another note: for those talking about the levy system... gov't funding has been cut there for the past 5-10years for projects such as that. How can you fix something you have no money for??? This is a known gov't problem that has never been resolved now 1000's must die b/c assholes in DC rather spend 1 billion dollars a day in Iraq.

by the way you want to talk about your sarin gas canister again... let me guess you think it was full, did you happen to read it was a shell they found??? what is a shell??? ok must of been full :jerkit:

OMG ROFL. I seriously could not keep myself from laughing when I read this.

Dictionary definition of 'shell':
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shell

As you can see, just because something is called a 'shell' does not mean it is empty. In this case, it was filled with enough Sarin to have killed about 50,000 people had the chemicals mixed properly.

ALL ARTILLERY ROUNDS ARE CALLED SHELLS WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.

Why don't we go out to the practice range and we'll lob a few 'shells' from a 155mm cannon at you, you'll be fine, since you know, shells are empty. LOLOLOLZ omg.

[4dmin]

Post #33 was on page 3 (for me at least) and didn't mention anything about the local governments:





OMG ROFL. I seriously could not keep myself from laughing when I read this.

Dictionary definition of 'shell':
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shell

As you can see, just because something is called a 'shell' does not mean it is empty. In this case, it was filled with enough Sarin to have killed about 50,000 people had the chemicals mixed properly.

ALL ARTILLERY ROUNDS ARE CALLED SHELLS WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.

Why don't we go out to the practice range and we'll lob a few 'shells' from a 155mm cannon at you, you'll be fine, since you know, shells are empty. LOLOLOLZ omg.

The usually hard outer covering

ya they found a shell the outer portion... it had exploded near a base. was it full no? you said it was a "CANISTER"!!! like they were finding stock piles of chemical weapons.

[malfeas99]

ya they found a shell the outer portion... it had exploded near a base. was it full no? you said it was a "CANISTER"!!! like they were finding stock piles of chemical weapons.

In the shell is a canister that holds two chemicals, when the shell explodes and is mixed, you get sarin gas.

I never said they found stockpiles. We haven't found stockpiles.. though it is worth noting that Hussein's entire Anthrax stockpile would fit into a large suitcase (though it could kill millions).

But the fact is, WMD's HAVE been found. Sarin has been found, mustard gas has been found, and a few tons of low-enriched uranium have all been found, amongst other things.

[ISAtlanta300]

Why didn't we have this kind of problem with Hurricane Andrew?

[A.P. Photography]

Why didn't we have this kind of problem with Hurricane Andrew?

The flood waters were able to receed on andrew and crews could get in to clean up, N.O. does not have the luxury since it is basically a big soup bowl.

[AznTraitor]

Damn even the owner of the site thinks you are a fucking moron!! Way to get on the good side of the right people on here

how quickly he shuts up, isnt it great!

[SNapper]

anytime anything extreme happens all the not so thoughtfull people blame bush, just like 911

[Brett]

Why didn't we have this kind of problem with Hurricane Andrew?

iI went through Andrew, Florida doesnt get hit like this and flood because florida is flat and at or above sea level in all parts. New Orleans is BELOW sea leavel, meaning when the water breaks in, it has no place to go but up... so thats why they have 15+ feet of water now. The pumps they have that are supposed to suck water out are on th eground, which means when the ground floods so did the pumps.

[ISAtlanta300]

True, but I am talking about the response time. I was there as well, in a shelter, on 163rd street. Granted I was not around "ground zero", but aid did definitely come quick and everybody was well taken care off within 48 hours.....The major problem was with water and ice distribution and price gouging (chain saws etc) but people did not go to the extreme (looting and killing each other). There was also a mandatory curfew, even as far up as dade county and people respected that as well.....

[quickdodge®]

The DISASTER was partially his fault.

Actually, the disaster was 100% the hurricane's fault. President Bush had nothing to do with that. I think you may be refering to relief efforts maybe being partially his fault. Later, QD.

[Brett]

This has become a great topic

[Julio]

I just spoke with an ALIEN... he said that BUSH set up about 1.5 million fans in the GULF to cause this hurricane.

[Brett]

I just spoke with an ALIEN... he said that BUSH set up about 1.5 million fans in the GULF to cause this hurricane.

Damn Kristi and Heather will be glad to know thier theory was right on good 'ol dubya!!

[nightracer]

The rebuttals to the article in this thread are indicative of people's inability to think on their own.

[Brett]

Which members? lol

[AWD OWNZ U]

Actually, the disaster was 100% the hurricane's fault. President Bush had nothing to do with that. I think you may be refering to relief efforts maybe being partially his fault. Later, QD.

The lack of relief efforts are what are making it such a large scale disaster. The disaster doesn't stop when the storm leaves. Some of you act like Bush is powerless to do anything. It's state controlled? You don't think the PRESIDENT could have any effect on what goes on? PLEASE. The National Guard could have and should have been deployed DAYS ago. Bush should have cancelled all his dumbass PR bullshit gigs and done his damn job. Just because he didn't cause the hurricane doesn't mean he's not responsible for the massive fuck-up that has happend since. Oh and people who said it was unsafe for him to go there, riiiiight. You think small arms fire can even hit a jet let alone do any damage?

[D16Civic]

i doubt small arms could do damage to a jet as well, but do u mind explaining how Bush flying over NO in a jet is goin to do any freaking good.
That statement just sounds retarded to me. I fail to see the point of him flying over in a jet

[technoteg97]

So you even understand how large this hurricane was? A lot of the areas in Al and Ms are inaccessible at this time and they can't get in to them. The places they can get to are getting help you just don't see that much about them because they are acting civil compared to N.O.

Why are they acting Civil and why do they need to? and they arent showing anyone getting food and water only showing people on the streets asking for help on cnn and fox ive seen so far.

[AWD OWNZ U]

i doubt small arms could do damage to a jet as well, but do u mind explaining how Bush flying over NO in a jet is goin to do any freaking good.
That statement just sounds retarded to me. I fail to see the point of him flying over in a jet

Because the people on the ground would get the impression that their president cared? So they wouldn't feel abandoned? I'm sure it's something they could have used.

[KNHTRDR]

Natural Disaster

Yep, Ms. Mother Nature Got Pissed off and if people don't stop Blaming other people... she Might get mad again!

[technoteg97]

TOYOTA PLEDGED 5 Million?

[KNHTRDR]

Personally I think that this should NOT be a political issue at all but it's to late for all that. when the tsunmi hit ppl were helping ppl not shooting and acting a fool when outside help came if I was tryin to help you and you shoot at me guess what you gettin left.
they have been knowing for years that this was a possibility help was a little late but it got there. the mayor of NO is a joke. the real sad thing about it is after its all said and done and the re building comes...it could become a mini las vegas think about it gambling is legal they starting with a clean slate the poor folks would be gone...emt. domain, our gov't at work!

[Desdicado]

True, but I am talking about the response time.

In war, some of the first targets we take out are "infrastructure". That's bridges, communications relays, radar, etc. Katrina knocked out everything but Satellite communciation there. Most people who don't study war fail to understand just how important bridges (and infrastructure in general) are to a city, especiallly cities like New Orleans that are built on what used to be marshlands. In Florida, if a bridge goes out (say one of the ones running along the panhandle) it's easy to go up country a bit and bypass the damaged bridge. Even if the roads were taken out you still have fairly hard packed ground thats been developed (to some extent) making it difficult, at worst, for heavy supply trucks (Deuce and halfs, tractors trailers, etc.) to pass, but not impossible.

Map of the City of New Orleans

Zoom out 2 or 3 times so you can fully see what I'm talking about.
There are 7 major bridges leading into New Orleans; 2 railroad bridges, 2 interstate bridges (10 and 310), and then surface street bridges (lacking the technical term here, bare with me). Of those 7 bridges, 6 are on the East side, the side that was hit hardest by Katrina (as the storm passed to the West of NO). They, at this point, are damaged and unsafe. They can bare the weight of people, but you get a convoy of 2 1/2 ton trucks, HMMMVs, and tractor trailers rolling across and you're running into serious structural problems. More than likely, they will collapse if they haven't already.

Now when most people cross a bridge, say the one running over the Chatthoochee on 400, they don't stop to think twice about it. Now, think what would happen if that bridge went out. People would use Holcomb Bridge road and Roswell road, thus adding about 1-3 hours of congestion depending on the time of day. But, if a storm took out the 400 bridge, it more than likely would have taken out all the other smaller bridges as well, or vice versa, all the smaller bridges are gone and you just have the one running on 400. Try cramming all the people trying to get to and from the Northside and the city on that bridge, bad juju.

New Orleans is that scenario taken exponentially. Had Katrina hit to the west, the city would have been in a better position. All the major highways in the South East leading to New Orleans were in the Path of Katrina (10, 59, 12, 55, & 65). Also note they run through the states hit worst by the storm. Thats a hell of a lot of infrastructure knocked out. Coming in from the West wouldnt be a problem, except that the bridges on the West side are the only things above the water (Switch the map to the red button that says "Katrina" and zoom in and you'll see what I'm talking about). The West side, for the most part, is impassable bayou. Along with the (minor) flooding there, what few roads are left are already being overwhelmed with refugees going out and supply convoys going in.

That's why it's taken so long for Federal supplies to get in. Had we staged troops and supplies (ignoring Posse Comitatus) closer to where Katrina was going to hit, they'd be casualties and lost. The States with the easiest access to Katrina (Who's NG troops could get there the quickest) were also hit hard. This means we have to bring in units from further inland, which takes time. Storms are unpredictable so there was no point in staging them where we thought it would be safe (remember, Katrina originally was going to be right on top of NO and instead made landfall to the East).

It's hard to move supplies into a city if there is no localized Command and Control, no way safe way in, and no infrastructure to distribute the supplies safely and in an orderly manner.

I do not like Bush, but, I understand that ultimate responsibility lies with the Mayor of New Orleans, the Governor of Louisiana, and the People who chose to stay behind. They had one weeks worth of notice. I don't know about you, but I was always taught that if I didn't take care of myself nobody else would. What the mayor should have done as soon as Katrina hit Cat 3 (4 days out of NO btw) is order a mandatory evacuation (instead of one 1 day before) and used the City Buses, the School buses, and every other vehicle at their disposal to evacuate Children, the Elderly and sick, and then everybody else. There was no way for the Federal Government to respond in time, the responsibility had to fall onto the shoulders of local and State, who failed. In a weeks time people in decent shape could have evacuated at least to Baton Rouge (Where, with 4 days notice they could have used state and local equipment to move them to safer areas to the West, as they are doing now). I do not buy this "We were poor and had no choice but to stay." Unless you're a quadriplegic, you had a way of getting out of the city. It's one human beings have used for millions of years, your legs. I've seen 80 year old Kosovars walk out of their villages with packs on their backs into the mountains in the dead of winter because a Serb army was coming through to kill them. Had the people who stayed behind in New Orleans shown 1/10th of the intestinal fortitude and sense of self preservation that these people did they wouldn't find themselves in their current circumstances.

Had the Mayor and Governor used the resources at their disposal combined with the head notice of the magnitude of the storm they were given this would be an entirely different situation. Instead they chose to wait around and see what Big Brother would do to help. The Federal machine is slow to respond to anything and inefficient at the best of times. The people who could not have been evac'd would then have been able to stay at the dome, and with the notice the Government of LA was given they could have centralized the Police there and prevented the rapid spiral into barbarity that took place there. For whatever reason, they chose not to. They chose to spread their resources out and have CINC resources located in places below sea level (the Superdome is above). As soon as the city flooded, CINC went out the window.

People ask why the Army and Marines weren't sent in immediately to help police. This was covered earlier when someone mentioned the Posse Comitatus Act. Except in express situations (War, or major civil disturance) the Military cannot be used to Police the civilian populace of the United States. This is fundemental to the preservation of our liberties. THroughout history the oppression of a populace has almost always been carried out by those using the military, to prevent this the PCA was passed. Notice, though, that as soon as the Police fled (or turned into looters) and thugs started shooting at aid workers, the military was sent in. The Federal government responded exactly as it was meat to with the military. FEMA did fail, but thats a conversation for another post.

Is it Bush's fault? Only so far as it is the fault of every President since FDR whom have all encouraged Americans to become more reliant upon the State and less reliant upon themselves.

Is it the fault of FEMA? Only so far as they haven't made it mandatory at this time for every American to take a disaster preparedness course (or at least those in high risk areas).

Is it the fault of the Governor of Louisiana? Yes. Blanco failed to use the resources at her disposal efficiently and wisely. She chose to play "Wait and see" and thats now caused the deaths of thousands of the citizens of her State.

Is it the fault of the Mayor of New Orleans? Yes. The Mandatory evacuation order and Martial Law should have been declared 3-4 days before the storm hit. Better use and of resources should have been made and more thought should been put into the deployment of Police forces and their role to play. Looters taking anything but food shoot have been shot on sight.

Is it the fault of the people who stayed? Marginally. They should have used every means necessary (including their own two legs) to get the hell out of Dodge. Instead they chose to stay and didn't even go to the Superdome. They knew what was coming and chose to take their chances without first stocking up ahead I've time. I have been dirty poor in my life time. So damn poor I couldn't even afford to gas up a car and had to walk to and from work. I still managed to keep two weeks worth of canned food, water, and other supplies on hand. It's amazing how often that proved useful when my utilities were cut off, I didn't even need a natural disaster to make use of it all.

Sorry for the long post, but this is just a scratch on the depth of the logistical nightmare Katrina is and will continue to be.

If you think things are bad now, wait till disease starts to take hold.

[KNHTRDR]

^I agree with ya on that, but You know how the truth hurts.

[Desdicado]

^I agree with ya on that, but You know how the truth hurts.

speaking of truth

Foamy the Squirrel on Katrina

[djmaddmartin]

Hell yeah! I feel the same way. Just like all the Republicans trying to defend Dubya with total BS instead of just saying, Yeah he fucked up, but what can we do to help and make sure this never happens again.... Hmmm how about !!! NOT ELECTING A COMPLETER UTER FUCKING MORON NEXT TIME!!! I'm sure you can find someone better to back next time... anyone! Please... or you might be seeing another mad tree climbing rodent comin' at you live baby!

[malfeas99]

BTW, since this thread seemed to have the most talk about the funding for the Engineer Corps, I thought I would share a revelation regarding said funding, from an article:

http://www.startribune.com/stories/125/5602732.html

Text of article:

Before Hurricane Katrina breached a levee on the New Orleans Industrial Canal, the Army Corps of Engineers had launched a $748 million construction project at that very location. But the project had nothing to do with flood control. The Corps was building a massive new lock for the canal, an effort to accommodate steadily increasing barge traffic.

Except barge traffic on the canal has been steadily decreasing.

In Katrina's wake, Louisiana politicians and other critics have complained about paltry funding for the Army Corps in general and Louisiana projects in particular. But over the five years of President Bush's administration, Louisiana has received far more money for Corps civil works projects than any other state, about $1.9 billion; California was a distant second with less than $1.4 billion, even though its population is more than seven times larger.

Much of that Louisiana money was spent to try to keep low-lying New Orleans dry. But hundreds of millions of dollars have gone to unrelated water projects demanded by the state's congressional delegation and approved by the Corps, often after economic analyses that turned out to be inaccurate. Despite a series of independent investigations criticizing Army Corps construction projects as wasteful pork-barrel spending, Louisiana's representatives have kept bringing home the bacon.

For example, after a $194 million deepening project for the Port of Iberia flunked a Corps cost-benefit analysis, Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., tucked language into an emergency Iraq spending bill ordering the agency to redo its calculations. The Corps also spends tens of millions of dollars a year dredging little-used waterways like the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, the Atchafalaya River and the Red River -- now known as the J. Bennett Johnston Waterway, in honor of the project's congressional godfather -- for barge traffic that turns out to be less than forecast.

Most controversial

The Industrial Canal lock is one of the agency's most controversial projects, sued by residents of a New Orleans low-income black neighborhood and cited by an alliance of environmentalists and taxpayer advocates as the fifth-worst current Corps boondoggle. In 1998, the Corps justified its plan to build a new lock -- rather than fix the old lock for a tiny fraction of the cost -- by predicting huge increases in barge traffic.

In fact, barge traffic on the canal had been plummeting since 1994, but the Corps left that data out of its study. And barges have continued to avoid the canal since the study was finished, even though they are visiting the port in increased numbers.

Pam Dashiell, president of the Holy Cross Neighborhood Association, remembers holding a protest against the lock four years ago -- right where the levee broke last week. Now she's holed up with her family in a St. Louis hotel, and her neighborhood is underwater. "Our politicians never cared half as much about protecting us as they cared about pork," she said.

Wednesday, congressional defenders of the Corps said they hoped the fallout from Hurricane Katrina would pave the way for billions of dollars of additional spending on water projects. Steve Ellis, a Corps critic with Taxpayers for Common Sense, called their push "the legislative equivalent of looting."

Louisiana's politicians have requested much more money for New Orleans hurricane protection than the Bush administration has proposed or Congress has provided. In the last budget bill, Louisiana's delegation requested $27.1 million for shoring up levees around Lake Pontchartrain, the full amount the Corps had declared as its "project capability." Bush suggested $3.9 million, and Congress agreed to spend $5.7 million.

Administration officials also scaled back a long-term project to restore Louisiana's disappearing coastal marshes, which once provided a measure of natural hurricane protection for New Orleans. They ordered the Corps to stop work on a $14 billion plan and devise a $2 billion plan instead.

Levees only so strong

But overall, the Bush administration's funding requests for the key New Orleans flood-control projects for the past five years were slightly higher than the Clinton administration's for its past five years. Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, the chief of the Corps, has said that in any event, more money would not have prevented the drowning of the city, since its levees were only designed to protect against a Category 3 storm. Strock also has said the marsh restoration project would not have done much to diminish Katrina's storm surge, which passed east of the coastal wetlands.

"The project manager for the Great Pyramids probably put in a request for 100 million shekels and only got 50 million," said John Paul Woodley Jr., the Bush administration official overseeing the Corps. "Flood protection is always a work in progress; on any given day, if you ask whether any community has all the protection it needs, the answer is almost always: Maybe, but maybe not."

The Corps had been studying the possibility of upgrading the New Orleans levees for a higher level of protection before Katrina hit, but Woodley said that study would not have been finished for years. Still, liberal bloggers, Democratic politicians and some Republican defenders of the Corps have linked the catastrophe to the underfunding of the agency.

"We've been hollering about funding for years, but everyone would say: There goes Louisiana again, asking for more money," said former Democratic senator John Breaux. "We've had some powerful people in powerful places, but we never got what we needed."

[djmaddmartin]

hmm.

[malfeas99]

hmm.

Sounds like this fella had a bit of what we like to call a 'padded resume'.

He's been removed from hurricane emergency response management.