The disaster WAS bush's fault with PROOF

[malfeas99]

ya they found a shell the outer portion... it had exploded near a base. was it full no? you said it was a "CANISTER"!!! like they were finding stock piles of chemical weapons.

In the shell is a canister that holds two chemicals, when the shell explodes and is mixed, you get sarin gas.

I never said they found stockpiles. We haven't found stockpiles.. though it is worth noting that Hussein's entire Anthrax stockpile would fit into a large suitcase (though it could kill millions).

But the fact is, WMD's HAVE been found. Sarin has been found, mustard gas has been found, and a few tons of low-enriched uranium have all been found, amongst other things.

[ISAtlanta300]

Why didn't we have this kind of problem with Hurricane Andrew?

[A.P. Photography]

Why didn't we have this kind of problem with Hurricane Andrew?

The flood waters were able to receed on andrew and crews could get in to clean up, N.O. does not have the luxury since it is basically a big soup bowl.

[Brett]

Why didn't we have this kind of problem with Hurricane Andrew?

iI went through Andrew, Florida doesnt get hit like this and flood because florida is flat and at or above sea level in all parts. New Orleans is BELOW sea leavel, meaning when the water breaks in, it has no place to go but up... so thats why they have 15+ feet of water now. The pumps they have that are supposed to suck water out are on th eground, which means when the ground floods so did the pumps.

[ISAtlanta300]

True, but I am talking about the response time. I was there as well, in a shelter, on 163rd street. Granted I was not around "ground zero", but aid did definitely come quick and everybody was well taken care off within 48 hours.....The major problem was with water and ice distribution and price gouging (chain saws etc) but people did not go to the extreme (looting and killing each other). There was also a mandatory curfew, even as far up as dade county and people respected that as well.....

[Desdicado]

True, but I am talking about the response time.

In war, some of the first targets we take out are "infrastructure". That's bridges, communications relays, radar, etc. Katrina knocked out everything but Satellite communciation there. Most people who don't study war fail to understand just how important bridges (and infrastructure in general) are to a city, especiallly cities like New Orleans that are built on what used to be marshlands. In Florida, if a bridge goes out (say one of the ones running along the panhandle) it's easy to go up country a bit and bypass the damaged bridge. Even if the roads were taken out you still have fairly hard packed ground thats been developed (to some extent) making it difficult, at worst, for heavy supply trucks (Deuce and halfs, tractors trailers, etc.) to pass, but not impossible.

Map of the City of New Orleans

Zoom out 2 or 3 times so you can fully see what I'm talking about.
There are 7 major bridges leading into New Orleans; 2 railroad bridges, 2 interstate bridges (10 and 310), and then surface street bridges (lacking the technical term here, bare with me). Of those 7 bridges, 6 are on the East side, the side that was hit hardest by Katrina (as the storm passed to the West of NO). They, at this point, are damaged and unsafe. They can bare the weight of people, but you get a convoy of 2 1/2 ton trucks, HMMMVs, and tractor trailers rolling across and you're running into serious structural problems. More than likely, they will collapse if they haven't already.

Now when most people cross a bridge, say the one running over the Chatthoochee on 400, they don't stop to think twice about it. Now, think what would happen if that bridge went out. People would use Holcomb Bridge road and Roswell road, thus adding about 1-3 hours of congestion depending on the time of day. But, if a storm took out the 400 bridge, it more than likely would have taken out all the other smaller bridges as well, or vice versa, all the smaller bridges are gone and you just have the one running on 400. Try cramming all the people trying to get to and from the Northside and the city on that bridge, bad juju.

New Orleans is that scenario taken exponentially. Had Katrina hit to the west, the city would have been in a better position. All the major highways in the South East leading to New Orleans were in the Path of Katrina (10, 59, 12, 55, & 65). Also note they run through the states hit worst by the storm. Thats a hell of a lot of infrastructure knocked out. Coming in from the West wouldnt be a problem, except that the bridges on the West side are the only things above the water (Switch the map to the red button that says "Katrina" and zoom in and you'll see what I'm talking about). The West side, for the most part, is impassable bayou. Along with the (minor) flooding there, what few roads are left are already being overwhelmed with refugees going out and supply convoys going in.

That's why it's taken so long for Federal supplies to get in. Had we staged troops and supplies (ignoring Posse Comitatus) closer to where Katrina was going to hit, they'd be casualties and lost. The States with the easiest access to Katrina (Who's NG troops could get there the quickest) were also hit hard. This means we have to bring in units from further inland, which takes time. Storms are unpredictable so there was no point in staging them where we thought it would be safe (remember, Katrina originally was going to be right on top of NO and instead made landfall to the East).

It's hard to move supplies into a city if there is no localized Command and Control, no way safe way in, and no infrastructure to distribute the supplies safely and in an orderly manner.

I do not like Bush, but, I understand that ultimate responsibility lies with the Mayor of New Orleans, the Governor of Louisiana, and the People who chose to stay behind. They had one weeks worth of notice. I don't know about you, but I was always taught that if I didn't take care of myself nobody else would. What the mayor should have done as soon as Katrina hit Cat 3 (4 days out of NO btw) is order a mandatory evacuation (instead of one 1 day before) and used the City Buses, the School buses, and every other vehicle at their disposal to evacuate Children, the Elderly and sick, and then everybody else. There was no way for the Federal Government to respond in time, the responsibility had to fall onto the shoulders of local and State, who failed. In a weeks time people in decent shape could have evacuated at least to Baton Rouge (Where, with 4 days notice they could have used state and local equipment to move them to safer areas to the West, as they are doing now). I do not buy this "We were poor and had no choice but to stay." Unless you're a quadriplegic, you had a way of getting out of the city. It's one human beings have used for millions of years, your legs. I've seen 80 year old Kosovars walk out of their villages with packs on their backs into the mountains in the dead of winter because a Serb army was coming through to kill them. Had the people who stayed behind in New Orleans shown 1/10th of the intestinal fortitude and sense of self preservation that these people did they wouldn't find themselves in their current circumstances.

Had the Mayor and Governor used the resources at their disposal combined with the head notice of the magnitude of the storm they were given this would be an entirely different situation. Instead they chose to wait around and see what Big Brother would do to help. The Federal machine is slow to respond to anything and inefficient at the best of times. The people who could not have been evac'd would then have been able to stay at the dome, and with the notice the Government of LA was given they could have centralized the Police there and prevented the rapid spiral into barbarity that took place there. For whatever reason, they chose not to. They chose to spread their resources out and have CINC resources located in places below sea level (the Superdome is above). As soon as the city flooded, CINC went out the window.

People ask why the Army and Marines weren't sent in immediately to help police. This was covered earlier when someone mentioned the Posse Comitatus Act. Except in express situations (War, or major civil disturance) the Military cannot be used to Police the civilian populace of the United States. This is fundemental to the preservation of our liberties. THroughout history the oppression of a populace has almost always been carried out by those using the military, to prevent this the PCA was passed. Notice, though, that as soon as the Police fled (or turned into looters) and thugs started shooting at aid workers, the military was sent in. The Federal government responded exactly as it was meat to with the military. FEMA did fail, but thats a conversation for another post.

Is it Bush's fault? Only so far as it is the fault of every President since FDR whom have all encouraged Americans to become more reliant upon the State and less reliant upon themselves.

Is it the fault of FEMA? Only so far as they haven't made it mandatory at this time for every American to take a disaster preparedness course (or at least those in high risk areas).

Is it the fault of the Governor of Louisiana? Yes. Blanco failed to use the resources at her disposal efficiently and wisely. She chose to play "Wait and see" and thats now caused the deaths of thousands of the citizens of her State.

Is it the fault of the Mayor of New Orleans? Yes. The Mandatory evacuation order and Martial Law should have been declared 3-4 days before the storm hit. Better use and of resources should have been made and more thought should been put into the deployment of Police forces and their role to play. Looters taking anything but food shoot have been shot on sight.

Is it the fault of the people who stayed? Marginally. They should have used every means necessary (including their own two legs) to get the hell out of Dodge. Instead they chose to stay and didn't even go to the Superdome. They knew what was coming and chose to take their chances without first stocking up ahead I've time. I have been dirty poor in my life time. So damn poor I couldn't even afford to gas up a car and had to walk to and from work. I still managed to keep two weeks worth of canned food, water, and other supplies on hand. It's amazing how often that proved useful when my utilities were cut off, I didn't even need a natural disaster to make use of it all.

Sorry for the long post, but this is just a scratch on the depth of the logistical nightmare Katrina is and will continue to be.

If you think things are bad now, wait till disease starts to take hold.

[KNHTRDR]

^I agree with ya on that, but You know how the truth hurts.

[Desdicado]

^I agree with ya on that, but You know how the truth hurts.

speaking of truth

Foamy the Squirrel on Katrina