Was there Al-Queda in Iraq before the US invasion?

[tony]

I have to research this some more to find exact dates, but I dont believe Iraq was "allowed" to sell their oil on the open market by UN trade sanctions so changing it to Euros would do them no good.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...998512,00.html

Dated in 2000

This is the first I've heard of the 9B in unaccounted for revenue. Do you have a link to this info. Also who is collecting this revenue? I remember something from a few years ago about the US using some money from Iraqi oil to pay some of the costs of the war.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/hele...58/detail.html

Iraq openly funded several terrorist groups, but would not allow them to operate within the Iraqi borders. He was also working with Al-Queda to aquire nuke material. I actually saw on another forum today that someone said Sadaam already had nuke material and sarin gas warheads, but I havent researched it yet.

Bin Laden reached out to Saddam in 96 and Saddam refused. This info was founded in the 9/11 Commission's investigation.. our very own investigation that no ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda was ever established. There was communication but no collaborative effort.

the US has not had formal relations with Iran since the early 80's. They are openly anti american and definately NOT allies now, or even in 01.

Hugo Chavez is openly anti American and we have had issues with him since before 9/11. The only difference now is that it makes the news.

Russia has been a fair weather ally for the last 10 years. They still favor the German and French though and are as closet anti american as they are.

Iraq fought alongside the U.S in Afghanistan hunting the the Taliban, those are pretty formal relations and an ally.

Chavez donated millions to New Orleans when Katrina hit and Venezuela is the 3rd largest oil supplier to the U.S, I doubt we want to piss them off since we need them just as much if not more than they need us.

Only about 3600 Americans dead to combat. The other 800 or so killed themselves doing something stupid.

Stability in that region is most definately beneficial to the US for the same reasons you stated above. Oil runs countries and they are sitting on alot of it.

Only 3600? 1 life is more than what should have been sacrificed for this war. Thousands wounded and all for what? So we can control their oil? Put a U.S friendly government in place? That is quite a sacrifice.. I'd off myself too if I couldn't see my son every day stepping over dead bodies afraid to be blown up.

[highspeed]

im going to butt in for a min right quick. i understand both sides and each side has a good point. im currently training to go over to Iraq at an undisclosed location. i have been previleged to the latest information and the most unbiased. it is amazing what the media had done to this war. all the media's focus is on how much it cost and how negative the war is. I will try to put this in some kind of perspective. As of right now the U.S. and its allies have appoximately 60k detainees in iraq alone. Of that at least 3/4 of them want to harm America or westerners. What people don't see is the amound of people who want America there to help stabilize the government and rid the country of insurgents( not just al queda, there are so many terrorist groups over there .....don't get them mixed up with al queda). Right now the war is really more in the stability operation stage. Winning the hearts and minds of the people and helping them understand that we are there for help not to hurt. Im not muslim but i have alot of respect for those that are. they are one of the most devote religions in the world, it really takes alot of discipline. But some people use the Name of Allah(which in english simply means God) to bring a holy war against the evil westerners. I wish i could show you what young kids are taught about america and western society.....it would make you sick......when we were all kids we would learn about history and how to speak.....but these kids get handed an AK47 and a loaded mag. To try to understand what we are doing over there would me futile unless you are there and you see what happens there daily........the media shows half the story.....so if you take into all the media talk....well then the war is lost. Simply put....we are fighting for the people who can't fight for themselves. I know that I will get flamed for this, and i wish i could share the information that i get with you but i can't because of security reasons. Just take it from me.....we are doing good.......even if you arent for the war.....we are doing some good .

[blaknoize]

I saw Bin-Laden in a Burgundy '88 Honda Accord with a riced out wing and 17's on that bish

[mad3nch1na]

You're not a sheep, you're a simply a traitor in the purest sense of the word.

Your right, we could suck ****, and kiss ass, and hope that we don't get walked all over; but along time ago a lot of smart people did a lot of fighting, and a whole lot of dying so we could have something called the constitution.

You're a coward if you're unwilling to fight for it, and what it means to this country.

Oh please coward my ass, I'm brave enough to admit that I KNOW, and yet state my position. All that matters is my future, my life, and my loved ones. Every one can go **** them selves fore all I care. The decision is theirs to make, the consequences are theirs to bear.

Be smart man, think about it... if 80% were to be "exterminated", who are they gona kill? *HINT HINT* Sure as hell won't be the rich people.

In my judgement I am in a win-win situation. If the 80% of the people get exterminated, I won't be one of them. And if nothing happens, good for me, good for them.

If I were you I would go to the golf club and make some friends. You can't beat them. They run the show, they run the country, they can't be beat.

Is it really so bad? really is it? If the "elitists" do take over, you probably won't die. Your life probably will get better in terms of standard if living and happiness. Your kids would get a better education, if you choose to do so. And you would probably live longer.

The conspiracy theorys are making it worse than it seems. And **** the US Constitution, its already shreded to bits by the Patriot Act and I don't recall the last time my 4th Ammendment rights were respected. This country was founded by racist biggots, and according to your "conspiracies" you probably believe the founding fathers were in some "EVIL MASONIC" cult. Granted most of them were masons, that aside, they were racist biggots as well.

If being patriotic means loving America for what it is: Slavery of Africans, Genocide of Natives, Rape, Torture, and Bush; then I'd rather not. The American dream is dead, meritocracy is dead, and America is dying.

[BanginJimmy]

Oh please coward my ass, I'm brave enough to admit that I KNOW, and yet state my position. All that matters is my future, my life, and my loved ones. Every one can go **** them selves fore all I care. The decision is theirs to make, the consequences are theirs to bear.

and if the founding fathers were the cowards you are then we would still be under british rule. All of them were wealthy men that could have easily taken the stance you take and only grown in wealth.

Be smart man, think about it... if 80% were to be "exterminated", who are they gona kill? *HINT HINT* Sure as hell won't be the rich people.

most of the people killed in the trade centers were upper middle class and upper class. Still think it's only going to be the bottom 80%?

The conspiracy theorys are making it worse than it seems. And **** the US Constitution, its already shreded to bits by the Patriot Act and I don't recall the last time my 4th Ammendment rights were respected.

you probably dont know the last time they were disrespected either. When was the last time the cops searched your home wihtout a warrant?

If being patriotic means loving America for what it is: Slavery of Africans, Genocide of Natives, Rape, Torture, and Bush; then I'd rather not. The American dream is dead, meritocracy is dead, and America is dying.

what state still allows slavery?

I can go along with the genocide of the indians. We were extremely expansionist at that point and we also looked down on them. It was an embarassing period, but at the same time I bet you cant name a single country that does not have a period that was at least as bad as that.

Who is being raped and tortured with govt approval?

Bush isnt the problem. Congress is the problem.

how is meritocracy dead? If you work hard in school, then your job you will live a sucessful life. If you dont work hard in school and your job you will live day to day hating your life.
Also if you dont like your American freedoms, you are always welcome to leave. 1 more freedom you ahve is one to leave.

[mad3nch1na]

and if the founding fathers were the cowards you are then we would still be under british rule. All of them were wealthy men that could have easily taken the stance you take and only grown in wealth.

Out of context, I never called the founding fathers cowards. Although the British are superior to the US as of now. The Colonies was just being a *****, and decided to rebel. You make British rule sound like hell, when infact it was just an issue of taxation. Taxes are way worse now, I don't see a rebellion.

most of the people killed in the trade centers were upper middle class and upper class. Still think it's only going to be the bottom 80%?

The WTC collapse was not controlled, in the sense of "who dies". Extermination will. Infact most of the people in the WTC were NOT killed, if it were a normal day, with normal ammounts of employees and visitors the death toll would have been 10,000+
In a one word answer: Yes

you probably dont know the last time they were disrespected either. When was the last time the cops searched your home wihtout a warrant?

4th ammendment protects you from unlawful searches; I never stated that my residence was illegaly searched.

what state still allows slavery?

I can go along with the genocide of the indians. We were extremely expansionist at that point and we also looked down on them. It was an embarassing period, but at the same time I bet you cant name a single country that does not have a period that was at least as bad as that.

Who is being raped and tortured with govt approval?

Bush isnt the problem. Congress is the problem.

how is meritocracy dead? If you work hard in school, then your job you will live a sucessful life. If you dont work hard in school and your job you will live day to day hating your life.
Also if you dont like your American freedoms, you are always welcome to leave. 1 more freedom you ahve is one to leave.

Every state had, slavery at one point in time. And the current prison system with disproportionate prosicution rates is in a sense, slavery. America was built on slavery, what you see today is only the result.

Lots of people are and were raped. American Indians, African slaves, Mexican women, college girls, the list goes on and on.

Torture? This one is too easy:waterboarding.
We bitched about how the Japanese used water boarding on American POWs and how it was a "war crime", and yet it goes on with the aproval of the government. So much for cruel and unusual punishment. George Bush might as well take the constitution and wipe his ass with it.

Meritocracy is dead. I have read many books on this, in particular, for your further education look for "The Meritocracy Myth". In brief summary; Meritocracy is dead, because of inheretance, sexism, racism, who you know, your genetics, and your attractiveness.

All this can be proven time and time again, rich tend to stay rich. Women make less than men. Whites make more than blacks. Who you know is more important than what you know. Tall people land higher roles than short people. Attractive people get further in life.

You don't think its dead cause you're probably white. When you're white the sky's the limit. When you're black the limit is the sky. Sadly enough.

All you guys that are disagreeing with me are missing my point. It does not matter if you are disagreeing with me, as long as you recognize all the points I am talking about, take them in to consideration, and utilize them to your advantage! What matters is what you DO with the information presented. I am not trying to spew hatred or anti-American sentimism. But when people call me un-American it is really a misnomer. I like the core values of America but in America we live in today, those are buried behind thick layers of crust.

Also if you dont like your American freedoms, you are always welcome to leave. 1 more freedom you ahve is one to leave.

I like American freedoms, like having to freedom to not be searched, or the freedom to say what I want, or the freedom of doing what I want when I want. But bear in mind, these freedoms are Universal in most first and second world countries! America is not so special any more. I like America, but I just like other countries more. Considering most most American people work 40hours a week or more with less than 3 weeksof unpaid vacation if you're lucky; compared to employess residing in the EU, it is ILLEGAL to work more than 40 hours a week, and it is also ILLEGAL to have less than 1 month minimal paid vacation.

People in this country are so backwards and brainwashed, the inteligence of the populus baffles me. When you're this dumb, you not only deserve to be brainwashed, but to be mandatory, just look at the current president and bear in mind how he came to office. (Not in refrence to you directly)

[redrumracer]

yes i do believe they were and

yea... boy we sure liberated them...
If McCain, or any other war mongering piece of ****, uber conservative republican is elected I will be dropping whatever I am doing, and leaving this ****ing country until our leaders can facilitate the change necessary, to once again make America a role model for the rest of the civilized, and educated world.

i call bull**** on that

[BanginJimmy]

Although the British are superior to the US as of now. The Colonies was just being a *****, and decided to rebel. You make British rule sound like hell, when infact it was just an issue of taxation. Taxes are way worse now, I don't see a rebellion.

how are the British superior?

actually there is a rebellion of sorts, it just isnt being done with guns now. And I agre, taxation was the main reason we rebelled against the British, but it went further than that. It was taxation without representation. Basicly the vast minority of colonists were sick of the tax laws that they had no say in. Its happening again too with the outlandish taxes we pay and the politicians that exploit the uneducated. That why I am a supporter of the fairtax.

4th ammendment protects you from unlawful searches; I never stated that my residence was illegaly searched.

so how are your 4th amerndment rights being violated? Dont bother saying the patriot act either. As much as I hate that law I have enough common sense to know I wont be one of the ones that strike their curiosity and unless you make alot of overseas calls with certian key words you wont be either.

Every state had, slavery at one point in time. And the current prison system with disproportionate prosicution rates is in a sense, slavery. America was built on slavery, what you see today is only the result.

yes evey state had slavery into the early 1800's. There was VERY little above the mason dixon line after about 1820 though.

More blacks goto jail because more blacks commit crimes. I'll have to look it up because I dont have my criminal justice book anymore, but whites who goto trial have a higher conviction rate than blacks do. Most of the people charged with a crime, black,white and everything else, dont goto trial. Most are plea deals for shorter sentences.
How is it slavery when they goto jail after committing a crime? Sounds more like punishment to me. Also dont forget that if they behave in prison they can work jobs and get paid for it. Isnt that the opposite of slavey?

And I dont see what a practice that ended nearly 150 years ago has to do with today. Is there still racism? yes, but there are black racists too and the number of racists that are in a position of any power is so small that its pointless to consider.

Lots of people are and were raped. American Indians, African slaves, Mexican women, college girls, the list goes on and on.

American indians - happened over 100 years ago, time to move on

Slaves - ended nearly 150 years ago, time to move on

Mexican women - probably happened, but it was nearly 200 years ago

college girls - happens everyday, not the govt's fault

Torture? This one is too easy:waterboarding.
We bitched about how the Japanese used water boarding on American POWs and how it was a "war crime", and yet it goes on with the aproval of the government. So much for cruel and unusual punishment. George Bush might as well take the constitution and wipe his ass with it.

Bill of rights only applies to US citizens. Also according to the Geneva conventions rules of war each of them could be summerially executed for not being in uniform during armed conflict.

Jap's also did much worse than waterboarding. One of their favorites was bamboo under the fingernails.

Meritocracy is dead. I have read many books on this, in particular, for your further education look for "The Meritocracy Myth". In brief summary; Meritocracy is dead, because of inheretance, sexism, racism, who you know, your genetics, and your attractiveness.

Like all class systems it incorporates 1 particular trait of a caste system. Those that are born to the upper class have an advantage on those born to lower and middle classes. They also tend to have greater educational oppertunities which keeps the cycle moving. We still have a meritocracy though. Just because we dont move from poverty to wealthy in 1 generation on a regular basis you can improve you standing in society in a single generation. My cousin is a great example of it. She grew up in the lowest rungs of the middle class. She worked hard in school and received a schlorship to DePaul University where she studied English with a minor in pre law. Grad from there on the deans list and received a schlorship to Northwestern University where she again grad on the dean's list and reveived her masters in tax law. She is now working with a company or firm in Manhattan with a sign on bonus large enough for her to BUY a 2 floor condo in Manhattan.

All this can be proven time and time again, rich tend to stay rich. Women make less than men. Whites make more than blacks. Who you know is more important than what you know. Tall people land higher roles than short people. Attractive people get further in life.

rich do tend to stay rich. They also tend to have a better education which may be why they tend to stay rich. Women and minorities do tend to make less money, but that gap is closing quickly.

I like the core values of America but in America we live in today, those are buried behind thick layers of crust.

This I agree with 100%. I also think alot of that is because of liberals and politicans who are owned by lobbiests.

Considering most most American people work 40hours a week or more with less than 3 weeksof unpaid vacation if you're lucky; compared to employess residing in the EU, it is ILLEGAL to work more than 40 hours a week, and it is also ILLEGAL to have less than 1 month minimal paid vacation.

Its a known fact that the average American will work more hours per year than a citizen of any other country in the world, to include the communist countries.

People in this country are so backwards and brainwashed, the inteligence of the populus baffles me. When you're this dumb, you not only deserve to be brainwashed, but to be mandatory, just look at the current president and bear in mind how he came to office. (Not in refrence to you directly)

He came to office becuse he won the beauty contest, then stayed in office after he won it again. The president also gets the credit and blame for alot more than he should. Congress is really the ones that make the decisions. The president is just the face of the nation, not the brains so to speak.

And you are right, American people are some of the dumbest in the 1st world.

[mad3nch1na]

My 4th amendments extends to illegal vehicular searches, which is considered an extension of your home.

Just because slavery and extermination of Indians were elements of the past, does not mean that it does not affect us presently. Slaves were never intended to be made citizens of the United States. The government decided that sending ALL of the slaves to Liberia was too expensive, so they chose to keep them in the United States, but never to have full citizenship. Although the word slave does not appear a single time in the US constitution, it did contain that word in previous versions; it was removed for strategic reasons. Past and present legislature are writen with racist undertones, with out actually using inflamitory words that indicate race. There were more black politicians during post-antebellum reconstruction era than there are now. America was a slave nation longer than it is a free nation.

For example there are more white murderers than black murderers, but more blacks are sentenced to death than white murderers. Same with drugs, white people do WAAAY more drugs than black people, yet black people are persicuted more often.

It is all in the media, it has the power to make to make you hate or to make you love.

I agree with you on the issue about how Bush won the presidency. It was similar to the Nixon-JFK trial when his image, not his credentials won it for him. This is another shining example of how meritocracy is dead. A C-student that becomes president. And it is true that the rich tend to stay rich, because most billionares are not self made, but have gained wealth from inheritance.

I'm not saying that you should'nt work hard and to just give up if you are not already rich. But to recognize these factors and take them in to account. I think the point of the book is to say that the conventional idea of meritocracy; the idea of hard work will pay off, is slightly skewed. Working hard to achieve your goals is no longer the best way any more. Thus making meritocracy dead.

In the modern world, to make it to the very top, and I'm talking about the top 5%. You can not get there by hard work alone, althought you must retain this virtue. You must be some what attractive(have you seen a billionare that is butt ugly?), know the right people, and work smart. And by smart, I mean recognizing the so called "rules" and apply them to your advantage.

[mad3nch1na]

btw is your cousin hawt?+white?

GB is economically superior.
The British are statistically "happier"
The British have a longer life expectancy
The British have higher average wages
The British has a more advanced military
The British has better public services and infastructure.
The British healthcare plan is better

Americans need to get out of the "AMERICA #1!" mentallity. The hard working, innovative WWII and post WWII generation that made America #1 are dying.

[GIXXERDK]

ofcourse they give a **** about genocide in other countries, and your right we do have interest with what benefits us. you make that sound like its a bad thing, wouldn't you do something that would benefit yourself while helping someone else out? Come on, President Bush gets his information from somewhere (CIA). He doesn't pull **** out of his ass and goes gung ho on it. This is why I feel bad about good people running for president, by the time they get out of their presidency, they reputation has been seriously hurt.

Do you know what happened in Rwanda in the 90's? Hell, do you know wtf is going on in Africa and parts of South America, even TODAY? Get yourself a real education "Doc"

[mad3nch1na]

Don Cheadle speaks the truth, Hotel Rwanda ftw.
Hutus vs Tutsis ftl.

[BanginJimmy]

My 4th amendments extends to illegal vehicular searches, which is considered an extension of your home.

again, when was the alst time your rights were violated? If you give a cop permission to search your car then its not a violation. If the cop has reason to be suspicious then its not a violation.

Just because slavery and extermination of Indians were elements of the past, does not mean that it does not affect us presently. Slaves were never intended to be made citizens of the United States. The government decided that sending ALL of the slaves to Liberia was too expensive, so they chose to keep them in the United States, but never to have full citizenship. Although the word slave does not appear a single time in the US constitution, it did contain that word in previous versions; it was removed for strategic reasons. Past and present legislature are writen with racist undertones, with out actually using inflamitory words that indicate race. There were more black politicians during post-antebellum reconstruction era than there are now. America was a slave nation longer than it is a free nation.

blah blah blah. that sounds more like excuses than anything else. By any chance do you have a copy or link to one of those early editions of the constitution that mentions slaves?

For example there are more white murderers than black murderers, but more blacks are sentenced to death than white murderers. Same with drugs, white people do WAAAY more drugs than black people, yet black people are persicuted more often.

got any proof of this, or is it just random mumblings? There is also a difference in the drugs being sold and used. Most white drug dealers are selling designer drugs, powder and Meth. Black drug dealers are selling herion and crack. Dont take that as to mean anything more than a dealer will sell what people in his area will buy. Put that same black herion dealer in hollywood he will be selling powder and designer drugs and not crack and herion.

I'm not saying that you should'nt work hard and to just give up if you are not already rich. But to recognize these factors and take them in to account. I think the point of the book is to say that the conventional idea of meritocracy; the idea of hard work will pay off, is slightly skewed. Working hard to achieve your goals is no longer the best way any more. Thus making meritocracy dead.

wrong. If you work hard enough, the chances of not suceeding are very slim. You may not be a millionare within a week of graduating from college, but if you truely work hard you will live a sucessful life.

In the modern world, to make it to the very top, and I'm talking about the top 5%. You can not get there by hard work alone, althought you must retain this virtue. You must be some what attractive(have you seen a billionare that is butt ugly?), know the right people, and work smart. And by smart, I mean recognizing the so called "rules" and apply them to your advantage.

To make it into the top 5% takes alot more than ahrd work and knowing the right people. It takes luck and a boatload of talent.

Also less than 2% of new millionares last year inherited that money.

oh you mean like Bill Gates? Yea he is truely a knock out of a man.

[BanginJimmy]

btw is your cousin hawt?+white?

GB is economically superior.
The British are statistically "happier"
The British have a longer life expectancy
The British have higher average wages
The British has a more advanced military
The British has better public services and infastructure.
The British healthcare plan is better

Americans need to get out of the "AMERICA #1!" mentallity. The hard working, innovative WWII and post WWII generation that made America #1 are dying.

yes she is white, no she isnt any better than average looking. Unless you are a model, you dont get several million dollar signing bonuses in manhattan for being pretty. You get those for being smarter than hell. I'm willing to bet more than you will make in 5 lifetimes that she is making her money because she was in the top 1/2% at Northwestern Law School and not because of the way she looks in a skirt.

anything to back the rest of that or is it just random mumblings?

[highspeed]

wow this probably went a different direction than expected........im impressed at this argument. Car guys do know more than just cars.......keep it up....im learning stuff....and it is entertaining

[95alty]

SEMPER FI... OOH RAH AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRG

[mad3nch1na]

Life expectancy you can find on Wikipedia, its ranked higher than the US.
Their health care plan and diet awareness(public serivice announcements) are a contributing factor to their life expectancy. The British pound is of greater value of the USD(thats why GB did'nt switch to Euros, cause it would actually decrease their monitary value).

Well comparing military advancness is a qualitative issue, but I will try to put it as quantitative, clear, and easy to understand as I can. The British had at one point in time conquered 1/4 of all of earth's land mass, and they didn't do it by being nice. If its one thing they are familiar with, it sure as hell is military. And aint a damn thing changed. The British have superior air power, including the F-35, which the US will be ordering 1,763 of, they have the Typhoon Euro Fighter, state of the art fighter as the name implys. For their tank they have FV 4034 Challenger 2, which is regarded better than the Abrams A1, because of its modernity in comparison, it also features a rifled barrel for improved accuracy which the Abrams A1 lacks. Their ground are better too, they are more motivated; they fight for "Queen and Country" where as our boys fight for oil and Mr. Bush. Their main battle rifle is the A80a2, it features a bull pup design, meaning the magazine is inserted further back to the but. This is superior to the M16A2 for numerous reasons. 1. By placing the magazine further back, it allows the gun to have a longer barrel(meaning more accurate) while keeping the total dimensions the same 2. It is more reliable than the M16A2, M16A2s are notorious for jamming 3. It keeps the center of gravity of the weapon closer to the soldier, making it more ergonomic. There are a few more but I feel I have stated adequate evidence against the M16A2 already.

The average wage is higher. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
The average wage of persons in the city is 50,000 pounds per year.(http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investi...9&in_page_id=3)

I don't recall the specific statistical website that showed that the British are more happy then Americans. But I can show you that more Americans commit suicide than the British. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate
See, America is 43, and Britain is 62.

[mad3nch1na]

again, when was the alst time your rights were violated? If you give a cop permission to search your car then its not a violation. If the cop has reason to be suspicious then its not a violation.



blah blah blah. that sounds more like excuses than anything else. By any chance do you have a copy or link to one of those early editions of the constitution that mentions slaves?



got any proof of this, or is it just random mumblings? There is also a difference in the drugs being sold and used. Most white drug dealers are selling designer drugs, powder and Meth. Black drug dealers are selling herion and crack. Dont take that as to mean anything more than a dealer will sell what people in his area will buy. Put that same black herion dealer in hollywood he will be selling powder and designer drugs and not crack and herion.




wrong. If you work hard enough, the chances of not suceeding are very slim. You may not be a millionare within a week of graduating from college, but if you truely work hard you will live a sucessful life.



To make it into the top 5% takes alot more than ahrd work and knowing the right people. It takes luck and a boatload of talent.

Also less than 2% of new millionares last year inherited that money.

oh you mean like Bill Gates? Yea he is truely a knock out of a man.

To start out, people's 4th Ammendment rights are violated all the time. Many of us on the forums have experienced this issue first hand. When a cop pulls you over and wants to search your care YOU ARE OBLIGATED TO SAY YES. The reason being, if you deny his search, he will make up a bull **** probable cause, and call the dogs in, prolonging your stay.


About the constitution, we were talking about this in my African American History class in earlier today. It is also in my book, you can check it out if you want it is titled: "The African-American Odyssey Combined Volume" 4th edition. It was no mystery that blacks were never intended to be made citizens. The court case Plessy v. Ferguson pretty much sealed the deal. (until it was over ruled by Brown v. Board of Education, but that did more harm than good)

http://caho-test.cc.columbia.edu/ps/10199.html
Here is the link, it contains excerpts of the constitution in which they obviously refrence slaves with out using the word.

There are people in African working WAAAAY harder than you have ever worked, does that mean they they will succeede? No. It is because they are trapped in an Africa that has been gang banged and cum shotted on by most of Europe. Look at how many Mexicans that are working at dead end construction jobs, does that mean they are suceeding? No.

Bill Gates is ONE MAN, out of how many billionares?
You're not really wealthy unless you're a billionare. Rich, not wealth. There is a reason why Forbes has a list for Billionares, not millionares. Granted there are exceptions where people have become billionares by their sheer genious, such as Mark Zuckerberg and the Google brothers, but by the rule of majority rules, meritocracy is dead, and the most wealth are not self made.

I don't doubt the validity of your claim

Also less than 2% of new millionares last year inherited that money.

But this is a skewed statistic, as statistics can be used to bias. A person with 999 million dollars and a person with 1.5 million dollars are both millionares. But you can see the obvious difference right!? Sure there are alot of people just breaking in to the 1 million dollar range and calling them selves millionares, but they are not "true" millionares so to say. You can spend a million in a month, 999 no so much. That being said, most self made millionares are people that have just barely broken the 1 million range, where as in most cases, those that have inhereted the monies have several hunderds of millions.

[Spektrewing386]

For their tank they have FV 4034 Challenger 2, which is regarded better than the Abrams A1, because of its modernity in comparison, it also features a rifled barrel for improved accuracy which the Abrams A1 lacks.

"The cannon, in the form of the tank gun, has made the transition from smoothbore to rifled and is moving back to smoothbore. To reliably penetrate the thick armor of modern armored vehicles, a very long, thin kinetic energy projectile is required. The longer the projectile is in relation to its diameter, the higher the twist rate must be to provide stability. Practical rifling can only stabilize projectiles of a certain length to diameter ratio, and these modern rounds are just too long. These rounds are instead formed into a dart shape, using fins for stabilization (see kinetic energy penetrator for information on how this works). With the fins for stability, rifling is no longer needed and in fact the spin imparted by rifling will degrade the accuracy of a finned projectile. Because of the increasing use of the highly effective kinetic energy penetrator projectiles by tank guns, many modern tanks have smoothbore barrels."

Their main battle rifle is the A80a2.

No such weapon. I think you ment the L85A2.

[BanginJimmy]

Life expectancy you can find on Wikipedia, its ranked higher than the US.
Their health care plan and diet awareness(public serivice announcements) are a contributing factor to their life expectancy. The British pound is of greater value of the USD(thats why GB did'nt switch to Euros, cause it would actually decrease their monitary value).

life expecancy and weight a very much interconnected. Americans are the fattest country in the world and a hge part of that is the fact that Americans work more hours per capita and the US has many times more dual income familys meaning that both parents are working.

Well comparing military advancness is a qualitative issue, but I will try to put it as quantitative, clear, and easy to understand as I can. The British had at one point in time conquered 1/4 of all of earth's land mass, and they didn't do it by being nice. If its one thing they are familiar with, it sure as hell is military.

and the colonists, then the US have beaten them in armed conflict twice

And aint a damn thing changed. The British have superior air power, including the F-35, which the US will be ordering 1,763 of,

The US did buy the AV-8B Harrier II from the Brits, but the F35, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter, is a purely American venture through Lockheed Martin. There are 3 variations of it. a CV version for Navy use to repalce the f-14. A STOVL version to replace the Harrier for the Marine Corps. Finally the CTOL version for the Air Force to replace the F-15. These will be sold to the several other countries also, including England.

The average wage is higher. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
The average wage of persons in the city is 50,000 pounds per year.(http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investi...9&in_page_id=3)

The average wage is higher, but the products they are are more expensive also. Just like the average wage in Chiccago is more than the average wage in Atlanta for the same jobs.

[BanginJimmy]

To start out, people's 4th Ammendment rights are violated all the time. Many of us on the forums have experienced this issue first hand. When a cop pulls you over and wants to search your care YOU ARE OBLIGATED TO SAY YES. The reason being, if you deny his search, he will make up a bull **** probable cause, and call the dogs in, prolonging your stay.

you are not obligated to consent. If you dont consent to it they have every right to call a K-9 and let them sniff around the car. The supreme court has held several times that is not a violation because they did not enter the car.

There are people in African working WAAAAY harder than you have ever worked, does that mean they they will succeede? No. It is because they are trapped in an Africa that has been gang banged and cum shotted on by most of Europe. Look at how many Mexicans that are working at dead end construction jobs, does that mean they are suceeding? No.

What does Africa have to do with a meritocracy in the US?

Are those same people that are working dead end construction jobs also working towards a hgher education? Working hard is only half of the equation. You also need to have an education. Especially in GA because of HOPE, if you are truely dedicated to getting an education you have every oppertunity and no excuses not to get one.

Bill Gates is ONE MAN, out of how many billionares?
You're not really wealthy unless you're a billionare. Rich, not wealth. There is a reason why Forbes has a list for Billionares, not millionares. Granted there are exceptions where people have become billionares by their sheer genious, such as Mark Zuckerberg and the Google brothers, but by the rule of majority rules, meritocracy is dead, and the most wealth are not self made.


I don't doubt the validity of your claim
But this is a skewed statistic, as statistics can be used to bias. A person with 999 million dollars and a person with 1.5 million dollars are both millionares. But you can see the obvious difference right!? Sure there are alot of people just breaking in to the 1 million dollar range and calling them selves millionares, but they are not "true" millionares so to say. You can spend a million in a month, 999 no so much. That being said, most self made millionares are people that have just barely broken the 1 million range, where as in most cases, those that have inhereted the monies have several hunderds of millions.

I just told you that less than 2% of new millionares are self made. I guess you need 100's of millions now to be rich? And unless you look at the vast minority you arent going to aquire 100 million in assets in a single lifetime, but neither did those families that have 100's of millions now. Many of them started either working for someone and taking over, or starting themselves and building it to what it is now. Look at McD's. It started from a single resturant.

[95alty]

Question jimmy... what branch you in man....

[BanginJimmy]

Question jimmy... what branch you in man....

spent 9 years active duty in the Marine Corps, now I'm in the guard.

[95alty]

SEMPER FI!!!!! im in now

[BanginJimmy]

SEMPER FI!!!!! im in now

I should have stayed in. I miss it now

[eloist2]

(have you seen a billionare that is butt ugly?)

yes i have.

Bill Gates.

[mad3nch1na]

Idk I think Mr. Gates was quite teh sexy


I never said meritocracy is limited to America, if it exists, it should be universal. Just like God, free will, or morality. It either is, or is not. A liberal minded person that understands this will use it to his great advantage.(not big L Liberal). Though McDonalds did start out as a single restaraunt, it is was not franchising business, and has its shares of pros and cons. Ray Kroc founder the person resposible for the modern McDonalds(franchising) as we know it(note HE did not start the business), made it what it is for understing how to use the meritocracy myth to his advantage. No matter how hard he worked, he could only work for 8 hours a day, because he has 24 hours in a day. But by utilizing other peoples time, franchising, and taking a percentage of their earnings he can make alot more money. The meritocracy myth is the keystone behind business. Mr. Kroc reinvented franchising, thus making his business so successful, if it were just his hard work alone, he would probably still be flipping burgers, figuratively.

You can only work so hard. To make it big, you have to work smart. And this will probably lead us in to a debate about the 95%-5% business owners relationship. The reason 5% own 95% of the wealth is because they understand the guise of meritocracy and how it can be used as a rallying cry for people to work hard and work loyaly to make some one else richer, notably the 5%. Don't get me wrong, some times you have to take jobs that make some one else richer inorder to better your self, but the difference is knowing in contrast to ignorance. Once you understand the methods they employ, you can what you have learned to better your self.,

[BanginJimmy]

I never said meritocracy is limited to America, if it exists, it should be universal.

maybe you need to take this to a UN board then because the only thing an American can control is what happens in America. If other countries want to remain in their caste systems thats their choice and I couldnt possibly care less.

Though McDonalds did start out as a single restaraunt, it is was not franchising business, and has its shares of pros and cons. Ray Kroc founder the person resposible for the modern McDonalds(franchising) as we know it(note HE did not start the business), made it what it is for understing how to use the meritocracy myth to his advantage. No matter how hard he worked, he could only work for 8 hours a day, because he has 24 hours in a day. But by utilizing other peoples time, franchising, and taking a percentage of their earnings he can make alot more money. The meritocracy myth is the keystone behind business. Mr. Kroc reinvented franchising, thus making his business so successful, if it were just his hard work alone, he would probably still be flipping burgers, figuratively.

so you are saying that you make more money by making smart business decisions? WOW what a concept.

You can only work so hard. To make it big, you have to work smart. And this will probably lead us in to a debate about the 95%-5% business owners relationship. The reason 5% own 95% of the wealth is because they understand the guise of meritocracy and how it can be used as a rallying cry for people to work hard and work loyaly to make some one else richer, notably the 5%. Don't get me wrong, some times you have to take jobs that make some one else richer inorder to better your self, but the difference is knowing in contrast to ignorance. Once you understand the methods they employ, you can what you have learned to better your self.,

How about comparing apples to apples. You cant compare someone that has applied themselves to get a college degree and someone that dropped out of HS to smoke crack and have babies. Obviously the person with a bachelors in business administration from UGA is going to make many hundreds of times more money than the HS drop-out thats smoking crack.

Unless you own your own business EVERY job you have makes someone else richer. If you open your own business you take the risks associated with it, so you make the profits.

[eloist2]

Idk I think Mr. Gates was quite teh sexy

you're right. I retract my statement. Bill is dreamy.

[95alty]

I should have stayed in. I miss it now

I feel you man... i enjoy it... we get to do an exercise with the army in a few weeks and we are helping them on urban warfare... we get to play the "insurgents" and while we are there we get a chance to get our airborne pin

[BanginJimmy]

When I was out at Pendleton our squadron gunny used to be a grunt and worked at combat town. He set it up to let our squadron play opfor all the time.

[95alty]

When I was out at Pendleton our squadron gunny used to be a grunt and worked at combat town. He set it up to let our squadron play opfor all the time.

LOL... this is my first one... is it fun?

[BanginJimmy]

hell yea it was. Very boring at times because they units that came in did 2-3 hours of classes between 30-60 minute excercise. We also did most of the clean-up while the unit was doing their class and after action after the last excercise.

[95alty]

Dang... so prepared for boredom... they told us the only way we can go is if we were physically fit due to the standard we are held... so anything in PT we have to outdue them

[mad3nch1na]

Yes, I mean owning your own business, don't get this confused with self employment. The 5% that own 95% of the wealth are in the business owners and investors, if you have read Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad Poor Dad, and Cash Flow quadrent you should have already known this. The concept of smart work vs hard work is a very simple idea,, but that is what it boils down to, no matter how hard you work, it will pale in comparison to a smarter worker.

But at the same time you are making it easier than it is, to make smart business decisions you have to know SOOOOO MUCH about every perspective, and to be able to view things in every possible lense before making those decisions, that his where education comes in to play. I'm in this process right now, but it does get pretty difficult some times.

The 5% that own 95% of the wealt consist of business owners and investors, the right side of the cash flow quadrant. It hard to break in to these catagories, but once "broken in" it is relatively easy to maintain your cash flow; this is because of the vast ammount of money that is required to start a business or to be make meaningful investments. One should not work for his entire life, but make enought to move to the higher quadrants.

[BanginJimmy]

Yes, I mean owning your own business, don't get this confused with self employment. The 5% that own 95% of the wealth are in the business owners and investors, if you have read Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad Poor Dad, and Cash Flow quadrent you should have already known this. The concept of smart work vs hard work is a very simple idea,, but that is what it boils down to, no matter how hard you work, it will pale in comparison to a smarter worker.

But at the same time you are making it easier than it is, to make smart business decisions you have to know SOOOOO MUCH about every perspective, and to be able to view things in every possible lense before making those decisions, that his where education comes in to play. I'm in this process right now, but it does get pretty difficult some times.

The 5% that own 95% of the wealt consist of business owners and investors, the right side of the cash flow quadrant. It hard to break in to these catagories, but once "broken in" it is relatively easy to maintain your cash flow; this is because of the vast ammount of money that is required to start a business or to be make meaningful investments. One should not work for his entire life, but make enought to move to the higher quadrants.

thank you for proving my point. Hard work combined with education and anything is possible in this country. No, you wont break into the top 1% of Americans richest in 1 generation, but you can become quite wealthy in a single generation if you work hard both on the job and in your education.

[mad3nch1na]

1% is out of reach but in the 5-3% is quite feasible. The problem is some people are unable to have the proper education in order to succeed. Some poor areas have badly funded schools, where the majority of high school students don't go to college, because of the lack of equipment, adequate facilities, staff, etcetera. Some people are limited by their environments. I recently read in the news, that a Clayton county in Georgia is going to lose their diploma accreditation, they still get a diploma, but it wont be worth ****. All of the children that are unable to move out, or attend a private school practically have their future messed up already. This will be the first county to EVER lose their diploma accreditation. Link if you don't believe me: http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/met...ykids0217.html

[DrivenMind]

im going to butt in for a min right quick. i understand both sides and each side has a good point. im currently training to go over to Iraq at an undisclosed location. i have been previleged to the latest information and the most unbiased. it is amazing what the media had done to this war. all the media's focus is on how much it cost and how negative the war is. I will try to put this in some kind of perspective. As of right now the U.S. and its allies have appoximately 60k detainees in iraq alone. Of that at least 3/4 of them want to harm America or westerners. What people don't see is the amound of people who want America there to help stabilize the government and rid the country of insurgents( not just al queda, there are so many terrorist groups over there .....don't get them mixed up with al queda). Right now the war is really more in the stability operation stage. Winning the hearts and minds of the people and helping them understand that we are there for help not to hurt. Im not muslim but i have alot of respect for those that are. they are one of the most devote religions in the world, it really takes alot of discipline. But some people use the Name of Allah(which in english simply means God) to bring a holy war against the evil westerners. I wish i could show you what young kids are taught about america and western society.....it would make you sick......when we were all kids we would learn about history and how to speak.....but these kids get handed an AK47 and a loaded mag. To try to understand what we are doing over there would me futile unless you are there and you see what happens there daily........the media shows half the story.....so if you take into all the media talk....well then the war is lost. Simply put....we are fighting for the people who can't fight for themselves. I know that I will get flamed for this, and i wish i could share the information that i get with you but i can't because of security reasons. Just take it from me.....we are doing good.......even if you arent for the war.....we are doing some good .

Fine if that's your rational, then I guess stick to it. Keep shooting civilians because you can't distinguish them from the "enemy", and keep liberating nations who don't ask to be liberated, you're paving the way for a singular, global government. You can keep telling yourself you're fighting for a people who can't fight for themselves, just like most soldiers do now, and did in Vietnam, unfortunately sooner or later, you are going to be forced to come to the realization that these people never asked for, or wanted our help. Isn't it funny how the U.S. only "helps", nations with whom they import a common commodity.

Thankfully, against your ideals, I don't have to be in Iraq to see what's going on. What Bush is doing to this country, isn't all that different from what Adolf Hitler did to Germany before taking power, and while I will forever support you for risking you life for our country, I will forever be fighting the people who'd rather send you to your death, for their own private gain. Most of the soldier friends I have, have asked me to sit down with them, and explain what I now know to be true about the United States government.

Oh yea... Didn't you swear an oath to protect the constitution, not corrupt politicians? So then why is Bush's agenda so damned important to you?

E Pluribus Unum.

[DrivenMind]

The people you claim to have detained are none other than the middle eastern variation of a religious fundamentalist, which apparently everyone fails to realize is the same type of person who's currently running our country.

I'm not saying something good won't come out of our presence in Iraq, but what I am saying, is that whatever comes out of this shameful waste of human life, will be in the best monetary interest of the United States; for that, and that reason alone, I will never support this war, as it simply illustrates the hidden agenda in place in this "war."

[mad3nch1na]

Yea to prove his point all you have to do is wear a t-shirt to the airport with what APPEARS to be Arabic words on it, and I swear to God you're gonna go through hell. Technically, according to the patriot act a "terrorist" is anyone who incites terror. If any one is a terrorist it would be ourselves. We must focus on terrorism in our own country. How can we call our selves a great nation, when our youngest and smartest go on killing rampages for no reason?