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Thread: My K20 rebuild thread

  1. #1
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Default My K20 rebuild thread

    I know there's not a whole lot of k20 action in the Atlanta area, especially naturally aspirated, but I assure you, I own the dubious distinction of having blown up more k20 motors than anyone else in the state. Along with that comes rebuilding experience, and I'm going to share a bit of my latest rebuild in this thread.

    After 20,000+ miles, my 230ish hp 9000+rpm k20 bit the dust. More specifically, the cylinder #3 piston bit the dust.

    What cylinder #3 looked like


    What the rest looked like. You may be thinking to yourself "my, what a clean burning engine he has!" Why thank you, I like to think I know a thing or two about tuning. :p


    Rods & pistons laid out


    In case you wondered why they're called "H" beam rods.


    Long story short, these were CP 12.5: pistons with a thermal barrier coating on the top and anti friction coating on the skirt. I was planning to run a healthy shot of nitrous, but I never got around to it. The pistons were installed with a piston to wall of 0.0035" or 0.0036" which is okay for an n/a motor. However, what happened in the 20+K miles that she lived is that the piston to wall clearances never tightened up to what they should have been when the engine was at operating temperature. As a result, the pistons were loose in the bore and the bottom edge of the skirts all showed irregular wear. Cylinder #3 was just the first to go. The skirt fell apart and then the piston turned sideways in it's bore. :p

    So based on that experience, I decided that this time around I'd go for pistons made of a lower expansion alloy. The only off the shelf pistons for a k-series made of 4032 are the supertech.

    Here's some comparison pics of the CP pistons vs. the supertech pistons.

    The CP has a much more nicely sculpted dome with a wider peak. However, the Supertech has visibly deeper valve reliefs and yields the same 12.5:1 compression. Just from the way the top of the CP piston is machined versus the Supertech piston, it's not difficult to see why there is a significant price difference between the two brands.


    The Supertech has a wider skirt that is also a little longer. The crown of the piston is also a little thicker. The supertech piston also has less taper from the crown to the bottom of the skirt. This makes sense as it is constructed from an alloy that expands less as it heats up.


    On the underside of the piston, it's again clear why CP costs more. It's got much nicer machining on the underside of the piston. Dual wrist pin oiling holes are present on the CP piston. The supertech piston does have a thicker skirt. The wrist pin is also shorter on the supertech piston. The CP piston will accommodate a much wider rod, although that doesn't matter much if you are using stock width crank journals.


    I got the block back on Friday and measured it out today.

    All cleaned up.


    The plateau hone looks really good.


    My inexpensive bore gauge that gets the job done. I have to do some interpolation to read between 0.0005" increments. Also, the reading shown here is 0.00225" over since the gauge zeroed out on my piston measurement halfway between zero and one mark to the right.


    So, the other thing I wanted to do tonight was get a better idea of if the piston to wall clearance I specified to the machine shop was suitable or not. Last night I made up a worksheet in MathCAD to calculate the expansion of the pistons based on coefficients of thermal expansion I looked up for 4032 and 2618 alloys. Those numbers indicated I'd end up with a hot clearance of 0.0011", which seemed reasonable. However, I grew up watching mr. wizzard and bill nye the science guy, so I had to take things a step further and determine the CTEs experimentally.

    MMMMMMM, pistons, they're what's for dinner. Note that I marked the measuring points with a marker to ensure measuring precision. Supertech pistons on left, one CP piston and one OEM piston on the right.


    They're cooking now!


    After crunching the numbers, results were actually reasonably close to what the values I looked up were. Well, for the 4032 and 2618 alloys. Obviously there was no table with specific information on CTEs for the OEM piston material as CTEs for cast material vary widely depending on the specific way in which the piston was cast. But I'm getting sidetracked.

    1. CP CTE: 25.7 versus 24
    2. Supertech CTE: 23.2 versus 21
    3. Stock piston CTE: 16.9


    As you can see, the 2618 alloy does in fact have a higher CTE than the 4032 alloy. As expected, the CTE of the stock piston was much lower than with either of the forged pistons. The mathematical model says that the OEM piston to wall in a hot motor would be 0.0002" to 0.0010". With the piston to wall I specified on this motor, my hot clearance should be right in the middle of the OEM range, 0.0006". In short, I chose wisely. Piston to wall is tight enough to help maximize longevity, but not so tight that I'd have to worry about seizing the motor if I run her hard on a hot day.

    For kicks, here's a screenshot of my MathCAD worksheet.


    I also measured the expansion at the piston crown. The aftermarket pistons generally expanded a good bit more along their thrust faces at the crown than along the wrist pin axis. The CP pistons were within 0.001" along each axis. the Supertech pistons had an average difference 0.006" between the two axes, with the longer axis being the thrust face of the piston. The stock pistons were slightly oval as well having a difference of 0.002" between the two axes, with the longer axis being the thrust face of the piston.

    What I find interesting is that although the CP pistons were more round at the crown than the stock pistons, the stock pistons had much more even skirt wear. This highlights two factors that set apart truly great pistons from the rest.

    1. having a truly round shape at temperature
    2. having a skirt profile that matches the bore at temperature


    Now, I'm not sure how the Supertech pistons will stack up, but it would seem that the CP pistons left a little to be desired in the piston skirt profile. Makes you wonder why some companies charge $1600+ for a set of four pistons and what kind of intrinsic value is engineered into the product.

    That's it for now. There's a lot of work left to do before I get this motor together. Hopefully, she'll be stronger and longer lasting than the last.

  2. #2
    Z1 Motorsports FTW!! Dr.G35's Avatar
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    pretty cool. your the one on ep3hatch.com that did the cam upgrades correct?

  3. #3
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.G35
    pretty cool. your the one on ep3hatch.com that did the cam upgrades correct?
    That would be me. You used to have an ep3?

  4. #4
    Gods Chariot Vteckidd's Avatar
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    this will be a great thread, go get them chunky
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  5. #5
    Accord->Evo EmminoDaGreat's Avatar
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    lol chunky. damn, always getting deep into it..

    The EMPIRE

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    Supra Equipped WhiteAccord's Avatar
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    Lots off good information.

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    Village Idiot 00CelicaGT's Avatar
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    my head hurts from all that math! good job though on crunching all the #'s and comparing the 2 after they've been heated

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    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. KiDD
    this will be a great thread, go get them chunky
    and Mr. KiDD said "let there be VTEC" and VTEC rang throughout the universe. Even though you don't own a honda anymore, traitor.

    I can't wait to get this build together. All the lessons I've learned so far will go into it. :p

  9. #9
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmminoDaGreat
    lol chunky. damn, always getting deep into it..
    haha, you know how I do. I gotta swing by mainstream sometime since I'm back in town.

  10. #10
    Gods Chariot Vteckidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunky
    and Mr. KiDD said "let there be VTEC" and VTEC rang throughout the universe. Even though you don't own a honda anymore, traitor.
    Thats signature worthy right there!

    I know this is going to be the best one yet, i can hear my old motor trembling
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  11. #11
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. KiDD
    Thats signature worthy right there!

    I know this is going to be the best one yet, i can hear my old motor trembling
    Hah. We'll see. I will say that this will be the most painstakingly assembled motor I've ever done.

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    Z1 Motorsports FTW!! Dr.G35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunky
    That would be me. You used to have an ep3?
    yep it was a black one with bronze rotas. i had some cams that i was going to bring down to you but sold my car before i did .

  13. #13
    dc5
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    k20 rep!!!

  14. #14
    4do' not wifey car.. JDMirza's Avatar
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    Damn, good luck!

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    Senior Member | IA Veteran GSRteg®'s Avatar
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    Looks like you know what your doing.

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    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Thanks for the support guys!

    In other news, look what the FedEX lady brought . . .

    Looks pretty ordinary.


    Oh look! Some pretty new cams!



    The standard bearing 2.0L K-series cam has evolved to keep up with the big headers, manifolds, and high compression builds that were not around when the original IPS K2 were introduced. The K2 Mark II still represents the choice for a stock block. I went with the K2 Mark III because of my ported head & high compression bottom end.

    Also, that is the first consumer set.

  17. #17
    under construction Da_unknown's Avatar
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    welcome back chunky...can wait to see this 1
    GECKO SQUAD MEMBER
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    the saga continues....

  18. #18
    Khris H. Photo EJ_Allmota's Avatar
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    Damn homie.. another one bites the dust... but opens the gates for a better build.. looking forward to this one man..
    GECKOSquad
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  19. #19
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    While doing the trans work, I noticed some things about the 4.764 bearing vs the 5.062 bearing. I ended up messing up the 5.062 bearing b/c I dropped it in without putting the oil guide in first, and then I was unable to get it out via heating the case. The slide hammer & puller ended up jacking up the plastic part.



    left = 4.764 bearing from ep3, right = 5.062 bearing from JDM CR-V

    The snout diameter of both countershafts is 1.376", so the bearings are interchangeable.

    The first thing you'll notice (besides the piece of plastic missing from the bearing on the right) is that the 4.764 bearing has more numerous but smaller rollers. 11 rollers vs. 10 rollers. I measured the outer race size of both bearings, 2.672" diameter x .781" thick. However, differences appeared when I measured the length of the rollers. 0.5191" vs 0.5111" long, 4.764 vs 5.062 respectively. So the the rollers on the 4.764 bearing are ever so slightly longer. Not a functional difference IMO.

    Being that the cost of the two bearings is pretty much the same, with the 4.764 bearing being slightly more expensive, I'm going to use that one since having 11 points of contact around the countershaft should be better than having 10.

  20. #20
    IA Member B18lshatch's Avatar
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    Very wise man Chunky, Hopefully there will be more of this, i got a headache but im trying to learn, i think i read this twice already.


  21. #21
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    I've been busy with other stuff lately and haven't gotten too much done. I'll take some pictures and update. Motor probably won't be together until mid December, after finals.

  22. #22
    Senior Member dabuilding's Avatar
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    damn this is cool man gl on it

  23. #23
    Afghan Goober! TheChosenOne's Avatar
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    Good shit! Good luck with the build.
    Trend settin'

  24. #24
    KiLLa K
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    chunkys cams,chunkys toda tct mod, chunkys bad ass ep3- chunky u the kseries guru
    madd reps on ur knowledge

  25. #25
    Certified Gearhead 94b20gsr's Avatar
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    Engine built yet?

  26. #26
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Finally cracked open the packaging today.


    These things really are a work of art. It's a shame they won't be visible once they're in the motor. The finish on these cams is incredible. The fitment in the the cam gears is snug. All the lobes line up perfectly.


    K2 Mark III, first consumer set.


    With the intake advanced fully & the exhaust retarded fully, you'll run into some problems. This is with the lash set at 0.011", the "hot" spec for the cams. :wow:


    I found the "minimum" clearance point. Well, in practice you won't want to be anywhere close to this point. I actually found that at 0 retard on the exhaust, things are pretty tight to begin with. There really is not much need to retard the exhaust cam as the exhaust centerline appears to be set very aggressively to begin with. However when I have time, I'll play around with retard on the dyno sometime, and I need to know my limits for that.


    In case you were wondering what peak lift on the exhaust side looks like.


    And peak lift on the intake side.


    Coming up next, claying the motor.

  27. #27
    Gods Chariot Vteckidd's Avatar
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    bout time i have a header i need to test on your car. get that shit back together
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  28. #28
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vteckidd
    bout time i have a header i need to test on your car. get that shit back together
    LOL. we can test it against my donkey powered Hytech that should be done any day now.

  29. #29
    under construction Da_unknown's Avatar
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    yo call me when this goes down..
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    the saga continues....

  30. #30
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Just got done claying the motor.

    Just lay a few strips of clay in the valve reliefs & quench areas. Set the intake cam to max advance and the exhaust cam to max retard.


    Exhaust clearance looks good.


    Intake clearance is pretty tight. Still, I have more clearance this time around versus the Skunk2 cams & CP pistons. 50deg advance should be OK in the low/mid RPM range, but you'd want to limit yourself to 45 as the revs climb just to be safe.

  31. #31
    ^^Idiot with a car key ;) jmmx258's Avatar
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    From personal experience CP pistons are not worth the money they go for. I ran into the same exact problem with my dirtbike. I had their 14.2:1 piston in my KXF 250. Took it to a LL Am Nats qualifier, and lunched it in practice. As it turned out their skirts are their weak point. My piston rocked in the cylinder and now I need complete head and cylinder assembly. Either way, GREAT build!!! Sorry to see you hit the same CP piston curse I, and a few other people I know have run into.

  32. #32
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmmx258
    From personal experience CP pistons are not worth the money they go for. I ran into the same exact problem with my dirtbike. I had their 14.2:1 piston in my KXF 250. Took it to a LL Am Nats qualifier, and lunched it in practice. As it turned out their skirts are their weak point. My piston rocked in the cylinder and now I need complete head and cylinder assembly. Either way, GREAT build!!! Sorry to see you hit the same CP piston curse I, and a few other people I know have run into.
    I've heard from a few other guys with CP k-series stuff that they've had skirt problems. At this point, I don't know if it's b/c their spec sheet clearance is too loose or if it's just a weak point in the design.

    I do know that from now on I'm going to stick to 4032 for street motors b/c of the tighter piston to wall you can get. Anytime you can reduce the piston to wall, the longer the motor will last.

  33. #33
    Super H8ter Starrfire's Avatar
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    WOW, super high lift on the cams, GL...

  34. #34
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    At long last,

    SHE'S ALIVE!

    The new 2.0L n/a beast coming soon to a dyno near you.

  35. #35
    Southern Speed
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    sweet! keep us updated on numbers.
    11.7@116- All motor H2B Integra

  36. #36
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    will do. I think by next week I'll have enough street tuning done to get her on the dyno.

  37. #37
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    Very Nice Chunky I am in for numbers! Glad you got everything together!
    K-What?!?!

  38. #38
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejohnson88
    Very Nice Chunky I am in for numbers! Glad you got everything together!
    haha, what's up man. Howcome I never hear from you anymore?

    Hit me up sometime, I'm on campus pretty much all day.

  39. #39
    Certified Gearhead chunky's Avatar
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    Just thought I'd update this thread with my latest progress. I ditched the old 3" exhaust and went with a new 2.5". Check it out.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJG7KTGeaQM

    Fancy oval tip. Not perfectly centered, but pretty close. Had to make some concessions b/c of how the muffler was angled in the underbody cavity.


    I wanted to have the muffler before the rear suspension.


    The benefit is no weight hanging off the rear of the car. Just a void where most mufflers go. You can see the band clamp used here over a slip fit joint. It was a tight fit, but it works with 2.5" pipe.


    Again, a band clamp used on a slip fit joint. These are great for flow & ground clearance.


    Check out that ground clearance. Way better than with my old 3" exhaust.


    Again, big thanks to Charles @ Mainstream Performance for TIG welding it all up just the way I wanted it. It wasn't easy to make the bigass muffler work in that location, but he got it done.

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