Shabby "old" BMW. A fast Camero. Respect them all

[OnURleft]

Some people just don't get why others praise certain cars. People can't look past a Camero being "red neck" when if drag racing is your favorite style of racing, then that for sure is one of the best street cars to do it in.
Other ignants (typically those who drag race) don't seem to understand why peolpe would drive momentum cars or cars that can turn with low horsepower. This is probably because they've never been near, driven or riden in a properly set up road course car or autocross car and don't understand that even if you do have a goat with 28lb 19" wheels and 400+hp you'd still get destroyed by a 160bhp spec Miata or say a new stock BMW on just about any roadcourse/autox. A foxbody has a good platform to get out of the hole but a BMW has brakes that work after 5 laps. To each there is your own and what we need to do is learn to open up to except the different style's of "going fast"

People with straight line cars...sorry if your brake cooling ducts, pads, weight and suspension is stock you are just making yourself look like an idiot talking sh.it to a bunch of autocrossing/road racing cars. Your cars are cheap for a reason and they are built to go fast. Go rent out a track and watch what happens to your brakes or take pictures of your cars roll center. Your cars are sofa's in that arena, a joke, slow as balls and completely unqualified STOCK to even compete in this area.

Road Racing people or people with cars that are probably foreign. Shut the hell up about "I can beat you on a track." They just don't care. People who drag drag and they probably won't see it otherwise until they get on a roadcourse. Invite them and show them as 95% of the people on this board have no idea what you do. Until then they are faster than you in what they think is the best thing to do with a car.

OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN BUILD MOST CARS TO DO ANYTING, i'm referring to most people's attitude on here and their cars..I've personally ridden in a blown Camaro on 315 hoosiers on Road Atlanta doing 1:40's and i've seen video's of road legal swedish 5 series doing a 1.3 60ft to an 8.8 pass, i'm talking IA cars.


Here's an example of both...

Anyhow... to the car discussions. Here's a shabby BMW. Bought for $2500 with 180k on the clock.

It's bone stock..other than Bilstein shocks, some weight reduction and TRM software and M3 wheels. It's on street tires
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...75349919149172 <-----
I can't stress how much you'd have to do on a mustang, camaro, gto, firebird etc. to keep up with that piece.

Here's how it placed at a competition autocross. Some of the cars were trailored in or on race tires that finished up top.

1 X1 10 Ian Gaffner 2002 Subaru WRX 0:52.457 0.000
2 X3 41 Jay Parcon 2001 Honda S2000 0:53.000 0.543
3 F 141 George Johnston 1995 BMW 325is 0:53.180 0.723
4 X3 58 Richard Knittel 2006 Lotus Elise 0:53.513 1.056
5 E 325 Michael McCoy 1993 BMW 325is 0:53.709 1.252 ,<---------
6 G 1 Minsoo Pak 2000 BMW M Coupe 0:54.108 1.651
7 E 9 Eric Ayim 1991 BMW 318iSlow 0:54.435 1.978
8 X2 52 Bob Rittweger 2004 Porsche 996 C4S 0:54.455 1.998
9 F 14 Randall Prince 1995 BMW M3 0:54.621 2.164
10 E 21 Paul Douglas 2002 BMW M3 0:54.736 2.279
11 X3 4 AJ Parcon 2001 Honda S2000 0:54.914 2.457
12 X2 86 Andrew Beldecos 1988 Porsche 911 Carrera 0:55.271 2.814
13 E 57 Ryan Wilensky 1997 BMW Z3 2.8 0:55.397 2.940
14 D 19 Eric Palacio 1995 BMW M3 0:55.608 3.151
15 E 40 Ryan Neily 2001 BMW M3 0:55.631 3.174
16 G 327 Aaron Purchell 1998 BMW 328i 0:55.733 3.276
17 D 191 Julio Palacio 1995 BMW M3 0:55.810 3.353
18 G 328 Matthew Christie 1998 BMW 328i 0:55.913 3.456
19 E 18 Sam Sheron 2000 BMW 328i 0:55.991 3.534
20 X3 33 Adam Ingraham 2000 Honda S2000 0:56.050 3.593
21 X2 888 Philip Koch 1972 Datsun 240Z 0:56.060 3.603
22 F 20 David Barrett 2006 BMW M roadster 0:56.096 3.639
23 D 111 Ian Trenbeath 1999 BMW M3 0:56.139 3.682
24 F 120 Kevin Hagler 2003 BMW M3 0:56.176 3.719
25 E 753 Glenn Wilensky 1997 BMW Z3 2.8 0:56.325 3.868
26 F 999 Mark McHorney 2001 BMW M3 0:56.364 3.907
27 C 36 Jason Courant 1989 BMW 325is 0:56.634 4.177
28 F 66 Daniel Koch 2002 BMW M3 0:56.724 4.267
29 X3 76 Lozan Aleksandrov 1994 Mazda Miata 0:56.832 4.375
30 E 11 Michael Barrett 2008 BMW Z4 coupe 0:56.942 4.485
31 X3 477 Brad Tucker 2005 Caterham Seven SV 0:56.973 4.516
32 F 140 Anna-Kathrine Johnston 1995 BMW 325is 0:57.106 4.649
33 D 519 Sean Cromwell 1994 BMW 325is 0:57.178 4.721
34 C 88 Greg Braswell 1988 BMW 325iS 0:57.210 4.753
35 B 219 Michael Morel 1987 BMW 325e 0:57.293 4.836
36 E 110 Matt Barnard 1996 BMW 328is 0:57.378 4.921
37 E 335 John McClure 2007 BMW 335i 0:57.642 5.185
38 B 62 Peter Waldeck 1984 BMW 318i 0:58.022 5.565
39 X3 203 Phil Karp 2007 Volkswagen GTI 0:58.267 5.810
40 B 31 Ryan Curtin 1996 BMW 318ti 0:58.515 6.058
41 F 770 Dave Markert 1998 BMW 328i 0:58.610 6.153
42 C 25 Emily Douglas 1995 BMW 325i 0:58.850 6.393
43 E 288 Garrett Gresham 1984 BMW 325e 0:58.851 6.394
44 X1 165 Russell Lewis 2006 Audi A4 2.0T Q 6MT 0:59.072 6.615
45 E 333 Jordi Sander 2004 BMW M3 Convertible 0:59.133 6.676
46 C 92 Shawn Doughtie 1986 BMW 535i 0:59.297 6.840
47 E 56 Eriks Zusmanis 2001 BMW M Roadster 0:59.424 6.967
48 B 81 Jeff Bushman 2003 BMW 530i 0:59.785 7.328
49 B 735 Jesse Browne 1988 BMW 735iM 0:59.865 7.408
50 C 711 Jason Werner 1987 BMW 325IS 0:59.995 7.538
51 E 488 Katherine McClure 2007 BMW Z4 3.0si Roadster 1:00.009 7.552
52 F 368 Bill Osier 2002 BMW M Coupe 1:00.164 7.707
53 X1 175 Chris Lewis 2006 Audi A4 2.0T 1:00.478 8.021
54 D 53 Vicky Rittweger 2002 BMW Z3 1:00.982 8.525
55 D 138 Tim Williamson 2006 BMW 330i 1:01.467 9.010
56 X3 204 Aditya Madhavan 2005 Subaru Legacy 2.5i 1:01.613 9.156
57 X3 24 Diane McHorney 2004 Honda S2000 1:01.646 9.189
58 X3 801 Hal Bayless 1993 Porsche 968 1:01.959 9.502
59 F 22 Melanie Barrett 2006 BMW m roadster 1:02.389 9.932
60 D 213 Dave Thomas 1999 BMW M3 1:02.602 10.145
61 X3 221 Jonathan Pearson 1987 Porsche 944 1:02.856 10.399
62 E 201 Julie Barrett 2008 BMW Z4 1:05.160 12.703
63 X3 80 Nancy Bayless 1993 Porsche 968 1:05.615 13.158
64 D 79 Rick Neal 1996 BMW M3 0:00.000


And sorry road racing people your car may destroy a car with 3x the horsepower on a track but your car won't give you this rush.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K41TMWhdobo

Discuss....

[AirMax95]

good post! Subaru FTW, lol.

[alpine_aw11]

True on all accounts, but you need to realize that there will never be a general understanding between the two sides. I respect drag racers, but I think it's kind of boring. Blasting down a 1/4 mile is fun, yes, but I don't think it truly tests a car as a whole. I think it takes a lot more knowledge to build a car that can perform in all aspects around a track regardless of its power.

[Atlblkz06]

True on all accounts, but you need to realize that there will never be a general understanding between the two sides. I respect drag racers, but I think it's kind of boring. Blasting down a 1/4 mile is fun, yes, but I don't think it truly tests a car as a whole. I think it takes a lot more knowledge to build a car that can perform in all aspects around a track regardless of its power.

I beg to differ!

One of the reasons I signed up here was to see if people call me a "straight line redneck" and other crap like that.

My time has been surprisingly pleasant. The ricers, jdm-tyte folk, 9 second supras, 13 second civics, all seem to co-exist pretty well with (percieved) "pro-domestic" folks like me.

I think a lot of people like you just push on with the "import owners hate domestic owners" sentiment and it lives on un-necessarily.

Its also important to notice that cars are changing these days. Most japanese cars are about the same as their american counterparts although there are a few that are different. You still have those zippy zoom zoom Mazdas but thats not even fully japanese anymore.

Call me a one-man-revolution, but I think the light-underpower-tossable Japanese car VS heavy-overpowered-cushy-American car argument is DEAD unless you use an IROC and an M3 to compare.

-Ram
(PSSST: FWD drag racing is still LAME! )

[OnURleft]

I beg to differ!

One of the reasons I signed up here was to see if people call me a "straight line redneck" and other crap like that.

My time has been surprisingly pleasant. The ricers, jdm-tyte folk, 9 second supras, 13 second civics, all seem to co-exist pretty well with (percieved) "pro-domestic" folks like me.

I think a lot of people like you just push on with the "import owners hate domestic owners" sentiment and it lives on un-necessarily.

Its also important to notice that cars are changing these days. Most japanese cars are about the same as their american counterparts although there are a few that are different. You still have those zippy zoom zoom Mazdas but thats not even fully japanese anymore.

Call me a one-man-revolution, but I think the light-underpower-tossable Japanese car VS heavy-overpowered-cushy-American car argument is DEAD unless you use an IROC and an M3 to compare.

-Ram
(PSSST: FWD drag racing is still LAME! )

I have to disagree here. There are some awesome American cars out there that are in no way what they use to be and they are catching up but I.M.O they still hold their reputation as bigger, cushier cars that can't deal with change of direction, have dated suspension and big ole' motors. If you look in most new magazine tests you can see evidence for this in all types of comapro's from S.U.V's, hatches to sedans. There are exceptions like the new Cobalt SS (best handling fwd car in the world), new Vette's, Vipers, most new Caddies are descent need a lot more then their euro/japanese competitors to compete.

Your right, the argument is more vague with new technology but there are still perfect examples. A Euro E36 M3 in 1997 did the ring in 8:21, and it took GM 12 years to match that in a coupe with back seats and it needed 6.2 liters 430hp and what 275's 295's to match that time with the new Camaro. Cars like Mustangs and Holdens are running times comparble to most sub 220hp hatch backs.
Regardless it dosn't really matter..As I said for each there is your own. What i'm trying to say is everyone may be fast at what THEY do but we should appreciate the different types of "FAST" our cars may have, regardless if it's a class leading 170hp Subie autox car or a Mustang that can do the 1/8th in the 6's N.A if we really are car enthusiasts. Their all sick.

It takes just as much skill to build and race a drag car, as it does to build and race a road racer.

the road race/AutoX/SCCa thing is alot easier to get into and more like a budget racer type of tihng. Which appeals to our crowd.. young adults with limited funds. And drag racing is expenesive, and it costs money to get down the track and to make that power needed to get those 1/4 mile times. it takes money to win at the road track, but you can take a 500$ econobox get some good rubber, and go to the track and run and have a blast! its almost a endless battle, some people have the simple mind set, about certain cars and their abilities.. its kind of sad.

It actually isn't cheaper and to think that it is sort of ridiculous. Brakes, tires, worn suspension parts, fluids all need to be in perfect working order and fresh each day you race which is very expensive. Your floored for a few seconds on a drag strip and for 20-30-60 minutes at a time on a track. You'll spend lots more money on a road racing car, hence why the class of people who do road race is sometimes perceived as "elite" and why so many people assume tracking a car is way to expensive for them and out of reach....Top fuel drag teams spend millions, formula one teams spend many billions

[JITB]

It actually isn't cheaper and to think that it is sort of ridiculous. Brakes, tires, worn suspension parts, fluids all need to be in perfect working order and fresh each day you race which is very expensive. Your floored for a few seconds on a drag strip and for 20-30-60 minutes at a time on a track. You'll spend lots more money on a road racing car, hence why the class of people who do road race is sometimes perceived as "elite" and why so many people assume tracking a car is way to expensive for them and out of reach....Top fuel drag teams spend millions, formula one teams spend many billions

i was speaking in regular joe smoe terms..

you can go out to the road track in a stock car with some good rubber, and turn out decent track times in a stock car
pads
tires
fluids
tune-up

things regular people get.. and u can go and learn ur car. reduce times from experience, within ur class. Obviously you move up with modifications, and the bill gets higher.

But i mean withdrag racing, you get a 16.0 car, your not gonna see too much lower than 16.0 out of that car without serious power adders.

put it like this...you buy a stock civic .. it will take you more money to get it to run a sec faster on the 1/4 track, than it would to shave times off at the road course.

[Nerdsrock22]

There are exceptions like the new Cobalt SS (best handling fwd car in the world),

Wait.



What?

[OnURleft]

Wait.



What?

Do your homework. You'll see

[OnURleft]

^^^. Haha right. It ought of won for what was done to it.

True on all accounts, but you need to realize that there will never be a general understanding between the two sides. I respect drag racers, but I think it's kind of boring. Blasting down a 1/4 mile is fun, yes, but I don't think it truly tests a car as a whole. I think it takes a lot more knowledge to build a car that can perform in all aspects around a track regardless of its power.

True but I like to bring it up. In my experience I have many friends who drag race or think they are on top of every car because there car will destroy mine in a straight line...all it takes is a day at that track and they have a completely new view on cars all together. Also i've shown some friends who only knew roadracing to the dragstrip and they had new views on what domestic muscle is all about.

[AirMax95]

how was it modded?

[OnURleft]

how was it modded?

Not it but something on those lines.


It had a ton of power and a ton of grip. The 3rd place car (i've driven) only has 190crank hp.

[AirMax95]

I have seen that one run, its quick. There is a silver STi that had some MONSTER rubber on it w/ a bad ass driver. He was at the Turner field auto-x earlier this year.

Want to trade cars, lol! I am looking for an E36 M3 if I can sell my subie.

[JITB]

It takes just as much skill to build and race a drag car, as it does to build and race a road racer.

the road race/AutoX/SCCa thing is alot easier to get into and more like a budget racer type of tihng. Which appeals to our crowd.. young adults with limited funds. And drag racing is expenesive, and it costs money to get down the track and to make that power needed to get those 1/4 mile times. it takes money to win at the road track, but you can take a 500$ econobox get some good rubber, and go to the track and run and have a blast! its almost a endless battle, some people have the simple mind set, about certain cars and their abilities.. its kind of sad.

[alpine_aw11]

^I don't try to push the stereotypes, but if you leave the realm of people who have a true understanding of cars then they do exist heavily. On a forum like this or with people who truly know what they're talking about, a mutual respect will exist. It just doesn't exist outside of that. Then again, I guess those people don't matter, but the ricer vs. redneck debate is definitely going on strong. Go ask the typical high school kid driving daddy's Mustang and see what he thinks. From where I went to school(Collins Hill) it was seriously ridiculous. I love all types of cars, I just have my preferences. It was next to impossible to find someone who shared that sentiment from the people I grew up around. It really centers on ignorance towards the car world.

[Nerdsrock22]

could you point me to said homework?

BTW, one 8:22 Nurburing lap doesn't quality a car for "best in the world".

Furthermore, the record lap for FWD, 8:17, belongs to this little gem.

[OnURleft]

could you point me to said homework?

BTW, one 8:22 Nurburing lap doesn't quality a car for "best in the world".

Furthermore, the record lap for FWD, 8:17, belongs to this little gem.

In America. My b. One sick puppy though.

[matthewAPM]

well i read the OP and all i can say is...go Jay. that is a bone stock S2k BTW.

The WRX that finished 1st...that pic you posted ian is not it. number one, that is an STi. number 2, IMV films now owns that car and its in Fl. number 3, the car you posted is a T2 road race car.

anyway, fawk everyone who talks sheet about low horse cars. look at results from atlanta region events...STS/STS2 FTW

oh, and that "rush"...drive a GT1 or fast open wheel car

and making a camaro run like a BMW, then you dont remember my dads. can you say rape??

[OnURleft]

well i read the OP and all i can say is...go Jay. that is a bone stock S2k BTW.

The WRX that finished 1st...that pic you posted ian is not it. number one, that is an STi. number 2, IMV films now owns that car and its in Fl. number 3, the car you posted is a T2 road race car.

anyway, fawk everyone who talks sheet about low horse cars. look at results from atlanta region events...STS/STS2 FTW

oh, and that "rush"...drive a GT1 or fast open wheel car

and making a camaro run like a BMW, then you dont remember my dads. can you say rape??

No **** Matt. He wanted a reference on what type of car you moron. Who cares about my daddy this my daddy that. Read the thread you can do anything with modifications

[matthewAPM]

No **** Matt. He wanted a reference on what type of car you moron. Who cares about my daddy this my daddy that. Read the thread you can do anything with modifications

well you said "tons of power and tons of grip" the car you posted is pretty much stock. exhaust and race tires on stock size wheels.

aww, dont get mad mister Ian sir.

[FasTech]

Its Camaro not Camero! Just though I'd throw that in there! I didn't read your thread, sorry... Not in the mood for reading.