turbo civic putting in work

[112480]

Yes times have definitely changed. I think a certain heavy all motor car should show up at mainstream for a dyno day. no air filter, race gas, 4" wide tires, etc... and make everyone cry.

Thats only if they havent been already crying from a certain light all motor car

[Moseley]

I remember Ed (Senf) saying he likes dynojets for tuning anything other than WOT. The roller does a good job of simulating loads and decel etc. that the car would see on the street. But I could imagine if you were building a road race engine or drag engine you'd want to maximize torque under WOT in a certain rpm range, and a dynapack is probably best for that?

[Vteckidd]

Here Moseley, u and mike can used my old....um CURRENT dyno graph for comparison. mike post up a B series graph with similar numbers

based on your graph i would stop revving at 7800-8000 and get a better final drive and get different gears to cut down your RPM drop. Theres no reason to rev past 8000 as your tq drops off hard. all youre doing revving that high is compensating for the time it takes you to shift. But you can see you make peak TQ around 5000rpms, and then it rapidly falls off.

IMO youd be faster shifting at 8000 (falling back to 7500) then shifting at 8500 and falling back to 8000.

Thats assuming a 500 rpm drop (which its prob more than that)

[112480]

Greg, this is an example i found to make the most sense

Horsepower is what actually moves your car down the street or around the track, and Torque is what tows a car trailer. Someone with high torque at low rpm would be a weightlifter on a bicycle. Someone with relatively high horsepower would be Lance Armstrong. The weightlifter may be able to tow a heavy load slowly, but Lance can maintain a decent torque at a high rpm. Guess who wins a race?

Just some examples i found. You can always look at Diesel trucks too, they make 600ft lbs/tq at 2000rpms and redline at 3000.

Good one

[112480]

Yes, that is the trick - the Dyno Dynamics makes it much easier to tune the lower rpms - and then with a couple of pulls, you can get a fairly close base map quickly, then all you have to do is look to tweak it a little.
With the DynoJet, my method is to work up in 500 rpm intervals, and build the bottom first. I learned it from Matt, and it keeps the risk of popping a motor down. I also keep a buffer to maximum cylinder pressure, so while it gives up a few hp, it keeps motors a little safer.
Right now, I am paying to have Bob Kurgan retune my car, just to get hold of one of his maps, to compare to my own tunes. He is the top AEM tuner in my opinion, so its always good to look for new methods and practices.

So david88vert i have a question. why is it the dyno dynamics usually reads what 5-7% lower than a dyno jet given at some point the have the same properties for measuring hp and tq???

[Vteckidd]

So david88vert i have a question. why is it the dyno dynamics usually reads what 5-7% lower than a dyno jet given at some point the have the same properties for measuring hp and tq???

actually usually the Dynapacs read HIGHER. Churchs Automotive out in cali routinely puts out retarded high cars. Like a stock K20 RSX type-S making 260whp, i mean go read what they turn out. But dynapacs IMO usually read more between flywheel hp, and whp. Somwhere in the middle.

Case in point Knowledge Performance had a dynapac and someone had a b16 with I/h/e and it put down 172whp. I was like "no way, no B16 has ever made over 160whp with just i/h/e" at mainstream. I invited the guy to come to mainstream, he did, it put down 153whp. Almost a 20whp difference.

As for dyno dynamics, i do not know why they read lower, david has more experience so ill let him chime in before i assume and look like a dumbass lol

[112480]

based on your graph i would stop revving at 7800-8000 and get a better final drive and get different gears to cut down your RPM drop. Theres no reason to rev past 8000 as your tq drops off hard. all youre doing revving that high is compensating for the time it takes you to shift. But you can see you make peak TQ around 5000rpms, and then it rapidly falls off.

IMO youd be faster shifting at 8000 (falling back to 7500) then shifting at 8500 and falling back to 8000.

Thats assuming a 500 rpm drop (which its prob more than that)

That would be correct, but at the same time there was something else holding me back from making more power past 8000rpms. the culprit has been found

[David88vert]

So david88vert i have a question. why is it the dyno dynamics usually reads what 5-7% lower than a dyno jet given at some point the have the same properties for measuring hp and tq???

Each dyno manufactuer has different ways of doing calculations - don't get caught up on that though. It doesn't matter if your number is higher or lower on different dynos - what matters is that you get maximum cylinder pressure across the entire rpm spread. A dyno is just a tuning device, and the best dyno is the one that helps you find the VE number that you make.
For that reason, I suggest that you chose one dyno for comparisons, and stick with it. For me, I like to use the DynoJet at Dynolab to make comparisons, as it has been around the longest, and has not changed in all these years. I can tune any car on any dyno, and then if I want to compare to a previous car or setting - I have it already logged at Dynolab as well.
BTW - Even different versions of DynoJets can give different numbers - the dyno operator can easily change the setup factors.

Now, in answer to your original question - here is where you can learn about the differences in the dynos:
http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=29

[Vteckidd]

That would be correct, but at the same time there was something else holding me back from making more power past 8000rpms. the culprit has been found

still i wouldnt rev a 2.4l with a 99mm stroke much past 8000 or youre going to be rebuilding the motor quite often. Unless you dry sump it. (unless they have fixed something with the K motors and their oiling problems).

And its pretty evident based on your graph that you arent going to make much power past 8000 no matter what you do. you make peak power around 7500-7600 (unless my eyes are bad). Extending that power PAST 8000 is going to be hard and if you do it prob wont be significant. I bet youll end up making MORE POWER but prob around the same RPM. May peak around 8000 but even then , its not your whp thats dropping off a cliff its your TQ. It falls almost 50 ftlbs from 7000-8500. Your hp kinda plateaus meaning either you are holding it back (restriction somewhere) or thats all its gonna make.

I think you would be better served shifting earlier and getting a 5.0+ final drive. But you wanna run nitrous too so you dont wanna have it too short geared.

more power on the existing gearing wont necessarily make it much faster.

IMO of course

[David88vert]

actually usually the Dynapacs read HIGHER.

x2

[112480]

still i wouldnt rev a 2.4l with a 99mm stroke much past 8000 or youre going to be rebuilding the motor quite often. Unless you dry sump it. (unless they have fixed something with the K motors and their oiling problems).

Its called using a a2 pump or moddified s2000 pump and 99+mm strokes can go 9-10000 all day! depending which pump u use

And its pretty evident based on your graph that you arent going to make much power past 8000 no matter what you do. you make peak power around 7500-7600 (unless my eyes are bad). Extending that power PAST 8000 is going to be hard and if you do it prob wont be significant. I bet youll end up making MORE POWER but prob around the same RPM. May peak around 8000 but even then , its not your whp thats dropping off a cliff its your TQ. It falls almost 50 ftlbs from 7000-8500. Your hp kinda plateaus meaning either you are holding it back (restriction somewhere) or thats all its gonna make.

I think you would be better served shifting earlier and getting a 5.0+ final drive. But you wanna run nitrous too so you dont wanna have it too short geared.

more power on the existing gearing wont necessarily make it much faster.

IMO of course

Well whats on the graph is all i'm ever gonna make

[Vteckidd]

Its called using a a2 pump or moddified s2000 pump and 99+mm strokes can go 9-10000 all day! depending which pump u use



Well whats on the graph is all i'm ever gonna make

I always HEARD the oiling problems were never solved even with the A2 or S2000 pumps. It wasnt a pressure problem it was a lubrication problem. But i think that was more on the road race engines than the drag or street car stuff. Road race is much more harsh.

I dunno i would just be weary of 9000-10000 rpm 99mm strokes, thats a lot of piston speed and stress lol

Good luck though im sure youll let us know how it turns out :P

[1civic]

Oiling problem in the k24 has been found, but does his engine builder know the solution??

EDIT:
little more involved then just adding a pump, I just seen your post above mine so I had to add my 2 cents..

[1civic]

Info posted is nice to know, Still seems track tuning I.E street tuning would be the the best.. Given it's really hard to street tune, location and safety factors come into play.. Any thoughts on this? My understanding was dyno is only an aid for a tuner, a good tuner would come to the track and review the logs.. Then make changes as needed!! Comments are welcome!!!

[SRCRX]

lot of info. in here!!

[David88vert]

Info posted is nice to know, Still seems track tuning I.E street tuning would be the the best.. Given it's really hard to street tune, location and safety factors come into play.. Any thoughts on this? My understanding was dyno is only an aid for a tuner, a good tuner would come to the track and review the logs.. Then make changes as needed!! Comments are welcome!!!

Most racers do log at the track and make changes at the track. For the street car though, a good dyno tune is efficient enough, and changes are generally not required. Remember, the stock ECU works fine with a wide selection of engines - there is always a window where the engine likes to operate at.

[Vteckidd]

Info posted is nice to know, Still seems track tuning I.E street tuning would be the the best.. Given it's really hard to street tune, location and safety factors come into play.. Any thoughts on this? My understanding was dyno is only an aid for a tuner, a good tuner would come to the track and review the logs.. Then make changes as needed!! Comments are welcome!!!

problem with street tuning is its really hard to do a 4th gear pull to 140mph on the street safely, and you cant drive and tune at the same time. you can log and then make changes. Its best to have someone else drive it, while you tune it, etc. Plus its not a controlled environment.

Track is always good but even then , how do you get to the point of running your car all out, you have to have a workable tune first, and "trying it out" by running a track run is dangerous.

its usually best to go "tune it" on a dyno, then make tweaks at the track with data logging. but not everyone can invest in a personal tuner, or have the equipment to tune a car themselves.

[Vteckidd]

Most racers do log at the track and make changes at the track. For the street car though, a good dyno tune is efficient enough, and changes are generally not required. Remember, the stock ECU works fine with a wide selection of engines - there is always a window where the engine likes to operate at.

exactly.

I kinda have a similar argument for people that INSIST on buying 32 way adjustable coilovers. Im like "how often are you REALLY going to adjust the dampening?" most of the time these guys buy the $1500 coilovers, slam it on the ground and NEVER touch it again.

Just like a dyno tune is usually exactly what 90% of the crowd out there is going to need or want.

[1civic]

Tuning is one thing in which I never picked up on.. The intimidation factor has always been there, kind of like jumping on a bike the first time!!

I'd love to learn, but damn if I want to blow the shit up!!! LOL

[91s13]

exactly.

I kinda have a similar argument for people that INSIST on buying 32 way adjustable coilovers. Im like "how often are you REALLY going to adjust the dampening?" most of the time these guys buy the $1500 coilovers, slam it on the ground and NEVER touch it again.

Just like a dyno tune is usually exactly what 90% of the crowd out there is going to need or want.

i use mines

[1civic]

Nasty Shit right here!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT3-U...1&feature=fvwp

[Vteckidd]

Tuning is one thing in which I never picked up on.. The intimidation factor has always been there, kind of like jumping on a bike the first time!!

I'd love to learn, but damn if I want to blow the shit up!!! LOL

lol thats how i feel about engine building. I was always like god damn thats a lot of work just to fuck up and ruin something.

But if you can build an engine, if you know how an engine works, then tuning is just something you gotta jump into but knowing how and why always helps.

Like i said the EFI 101 class is a great place to start, it teaches you a ton of info and really make you understand what dyno time is really all about. I honestly thought i KNEW more in 2 days than a lot of so called tuners know.

Anyone can turn sit behind a computer and hit numbers till the a/f "looks right". but understanding WHY a car makes power a certain way, and how to reach that point, is far more important.

[112480]

Oiling problem in the k24 has been found, but does his engine builder know the solution??

EDIT:
little more involved then just adding a pump, I just seen your post above mine so I had to add my 2 cents..

LOL! I didnt say just add a pump and ur done, just letting mike know u can go past 8k without failure using a a2 or ap1 pump,BUT i didnt say that was it Liek i said b4, culprit or prit(s) have been found...................... whatever they were as far as power goes

BTW: Engine builder is Extremely knowledgeable and is from NJ! LOL! here. So i trust him the MOST didnt say he was the best, just stating my opinion

[Vteckidd]

i use mines

yeah but 90% of the people dont. And 90% of the people couldnt tell me the difference between setting 10 and setting 30. I sold coilovers for years, and for a daily driver dampening is just an added cost most people dont need to pay for

[112480]

Info posted is nice to know, Still seems track tuning I.E street tuning would be the the best.. Given it's really hard to street tune, location and safety factors come into play.. Any thoughts on this? My understanding was dyno is only an aid for a tuner, a good tuner would come to the track and review the logs.. Then make changes as needed!! Comments are welcome!!!

Hey bobby, let me ask you....... why would i show my graph above?

[91s13]

yeah but 90% of the people dont. And 90% of the people couldnt tell me the difference between setting 10 and setting 30. I sold coilovers for years, and for a daily driver dampening is just an added cost most people dont need to pay for

i left the track and forgot to change the settings. i was like damn the car felt like i was still riding on slicks. i hurried and stopped at a gas station and softened them back up

[EmminoDaGreat]

Dynojets have load bearing option

[1civic]

LOL! I didnt say just add a pump and ur done, just letting mike know u can go past 8k without failure using a a2 or ap1 pump,BUT i didnt say that was it Liek i said b4, culprit or prit(s) have been found...................... whatever they were as far as power goes

BTW: Engine builder is Extremely knowledgeable and is from NJ! LOL! here. So i trust him the MOST didnt say he was the best, just stating my opinion

I know he is, even I call him for info!!...LOL, had to crack a joke incase he reads it..

[MidnightAuto]

Dynojets have load bearing option

Shhhhhhhhhhhh! Your not supposed to tell...

[112480]

Most racers do log at the track and make changes at the track. For the street car though, a good dyno tune is efficient enough, and changes are generally not required.

x2

[1civic]

Hey bobby, let me ask you....... why would i show my graph above?

You posted it for someone to compare.. Unless your leaning to a new point of conversation with me.. Explain!

[1civic]

Shhhhhhhhhhhh! Your not supposed to tell...

Morris, I got a Tag for that hooptie!! LOL

[112480]

Dynojets have load bearing option

That is nothing new james............well to those who know

[Vteckidd]

Shhhhhhhhhhhh! Your not supposed to tell...

and ill tell you i have not seen 1 Dynojet in Georgia with the optional Eddy Current Load Absorption Unit add on. If one exists thats cool id like to see it used

[112480]

You posted it for someone to compare.. Unless your leaning to a new point of conversation with me.. Explain!

eh, just wondering if you were wondering why i would show my graph knowing that a "few select" group of people are looking on in the shadows

[Vteckidd]

Mainstream, Batlground, Topspeed, all have inertia dynos without load bearing option to my knowledge last i checked

[1civic]

eh, just wondering if you were wondering why i would show my graph

Naw, I want you to come out the bushes so I can put the smack down on you with the B series..

[Vteckidd]

Last time i was on a dyno ws 09, so if someone picked one up thats cool , has anyone tuned with it versus a dyno dynamics?

[112480]

Naw, I want you to come out the bushes so I can put the smack down on you with the B series..

Like you did with 05dc5s? BOOM! LOL! just fucking wit ya......................... B series

[1civic]

Like you did with 05dc5s? BOOM! LOL! just fucking wit ya......................... B series

Where was until I let out, yes I lost but wait until the info comes out on that car!!.. That motor is on the same level as yours or the midnight car. They can down play that bullshit all they want, I'll run him back with my little B on a good day when I'm not being dumb.