turbo civic putting in work

[112480]

Gregg here is why dyno #s can be really misleading. A dyno measures whp by how quickly your car spins up a drum in that particular gear. It does math based upon the speed and acceleration of the drum. So based upon the drum spinning up at X rate, it can compute power, but if the dyno gave back the raw numbers it is reading, we'd all be doing dyno runs in 1st gear and making 2000+lbs of torque. So the dyno does some math to guestimate how much power is actually be produced, based on the speed of the drum. So if you do a pull in 2nd gear, in theory it should give the same power numbers as it does in 4th. But it doesn't. because you're hanging axles, wheels, and tires, off of the tranny and a lower ratio effectively increases the losses from that additional weight. That is why a dyno will typically show you lower numbers in 1st and 2nd gear.

I said all of that just to say... if you were to take both of our cars and strap them on the dyno in 2nd gear. it would still show that you have a power advantage, because the dyno tries to eliminate gearing from the equation. but if you could see the RAW numbers being put to the ground by each of our cars in 2nd gear you'd see that there was no 32whp advantage

Or in our race from 40-62mph u was +20%, then 62-73 u was @ 16%, then 73-87 u was +25%, then 87-106 we were even and 106+ u was +5%

LOL! I'm gonna get u back for that one

[1civic]

Damn I feel like i'm in school... Moseley are you saying since you make power faster it will over come the 32hp in which his dyno shows? I'm just trying to understand the method you speak of.. If he switched only to a 6speed the gearing factor would be eliminated correct? His whole power curve would shift, peak power being more or less?

[Vteckidd]

Damn I feel like i'm in school... Moseley are you saying since you make power faster it will over come the 32hp in which his dyno shows? I'm just trying to understand the method you speak of.. If he switched only to a 6speed the gearing factor would be eliminated correct? His whole power curve would shift, peak power being more or less?

the problem with Dyno jets has always been that they TRY to really factor everything in but they cant. They are too easy to manipulate and arent really AS ACCURATE as you want them to be. They are an inertia Dyno not a load based dyno which ideally is what you want.

The way a dynojet works is it calculates how fast you turn the roller in a certain time frame and calculates your hp that way.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Basically the dyno drum weighs a certain weight (usually 2500-3000 lbs) , it turns at a certain speed for a certain time, uses RPM, and then for lack of a super long explanation, it calculates hp and tq.

The problem with the Dynojets is it negates gearing, and gearing can really effect the TQ and powerband. A car with a 4.4 will dyno differently if you put a 4.9 in it. Tire pressure will effect HP, tire size will effect HP, etc. You wanna make 5 more whp, pump your tires up to 50PSI.

What Mose is talking about is taking the graph as a whole of his car versus gregs car, calculating the gearing differences and measuring HP that way. Basically Mosely in second gear at 5000 rpms makes XXXwhp versus greg at 5000RPMs makes XXXwhp.

Dynojets dont take into effect gear ratios, it tries to negate them or overcompensate for them.

"Area under the curve". Greg may have made 32whp more PEAK, but you can quickly make up for that difference with gearing with a much lower hp producing motor, which you wont see on a dynojet

[Moseley]

the problem with Dyno jets has always been that they TRY to really factor everything in but they cant. They are too easy to manipulate and arent really AS ACCURATE as you want them to be. They are an inertia Dyno not a load based dyno which ideally is what you want.

The way a dynojet works is it calculates how fast you turn the roller in a certain time frame and calculates your hp that way.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Basically the dyno drum weighs a certain weight (usually 2500-3000 lbs) , it turns at a certain speed for a certain time, uses RPM, and then for lack of a super long explanation, it calculates hp and tq.

The problem with the Dynojets is it negates gearing, and gearing can really effect the TQ and powerband. A car with a 4.4 will dyno differently if you put a 4.9 in it. Tire pressure will effect HP, tire size will effect HP, etc. You wanna make 5 more whp, pump your tires up to 50PSI.

What Mose is talking about is taking the graph as a whole of his car versus gregs car, calculating the gearing differences and measuring HP that way. Basically Mosely in second gear at 5000 rpms makes XXXwhp versus greg at 5000RPMs makes XXXwhp.

Dynojets dont take into effect gear ratios, it tries to negate them or overcompensate for them.

"Area under the curve". Greg may have made 32whp more PEAK, but you can quickly make up for that difference with gearing with a much lower hp producing motor, which you wont see on a dynojet

[112480]

the problem with Dyno jets has always been that they TRY to really factor everything in but they cant. They are too easy to manipulate and arent really AS ACCURATE as you want them to be. They are an inertia Dyno not a load based dyno which ideally is what you want.

The way a dynojet works is it calculates how fast you turn the roller in a certain time frame and calculates your hp that way.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Basically the dyno drum weighs a certain weight (usually 2500-3000 lbs) , it turns at a certain speed for a certain time, uses RPM, and then for lack of a super long explanation, it calculates hp and tq.

The problem with the Dynojets is it negates gearing, and gearing can really effect the TQ and powerband. A car with a 4.4 will dyno differently if you put a 4.9 in it. Tire pressure will effect HP, tire size will effect HP, etc. You wanna make 5 more whp, pump your tires up to 50PSI.

What Mose is talking about is taking the graph as a whole of his car versus gregs car, calculating the gearing differences and measuring HP that way. Basically Mosely in second gear at 5000 rpms makes XXXwhp versus greg at 5000RPMs makes XXXwhp.

Dynojets dont take into effect gear ratios, it tries to negate them or overcompensate for them.

"Area under the curve". Greg may have made 32whp more PEAK, but you can quickly make up for that difference with gearing with a much lower hp producing motor, which you wont see on a dynojet

Whats funny mike is that we put 50psi in the tires when it was on the dyno just to see if it would make more and it DIDNT! charles was kinda shocked but it didnt make any more power at 50psi than it did at 30psi. And mike, what would happen if we could find out the EXACT load on the street and was able to apply that to the dyno???? This is why some people would argue that street tuning a car is better than dyno tuning, b/c the load is already there on the when you street tune unlike the dyno.

Then it should be LOAD+MASS x Accleration. right?

[Vteckidd]

Whats funny mike is that we put 50psi in the tires when it was on the dyno just to see if it would make more and it DIDNT! charles was kinda shocked but it didnt make any more power at 50psi than it did at 30psi. And mike, what would happen if we could find out the EXACT load on the street and was able to apply that to the dyno???? This is why some people would argue that street tuning a car is better than dyno tuning, b/c the load is already there on the when you street tune unlike the dyno.

Then it should be LOAD+MASS x Accleration. right?

it doesnt ALWAYS change, but i have seen it change before. A lot of that comes down to just trying to find an extra 5whp and its almost impossible to get the exact number again and again back to back on a dyno. Like mosely said theres too many other factors. So at 30psi your engine oil was 5 degrees warmer than at 50psi, or your IATs were 5 degrees off, etc. Too many factors.

Dont quote me but
Work = Force x Distance

Power = Work / Time

hp = rpm x torque / 5252

However thats not exactly how a dynojet figures stuff out as it can calculate HP WITHOUT a tq reading (ever done a run where the tach signal doesnt work, it still displays a HP number)

Youre also not MOVING a dyno drum, your spinning it, so it has some sort of built in mass inertia calculation(moment of inertia something like that) that it uses to calculate hp instead of the normal way.

[David88vert]

it doesnt ALWAYS change, but i have seen it change before. A lot of that comes down to just trying to find an extra 5whp and its almost impossible to get the exact number again and again back to back on a dyno. Like mosely said theres too many other factors. So at 30psi your engine oil was 5 degrees warmer than at 50psi, or your IATs were 5 degrees off, etc. Too many factors.

Youre also not MOVING a dyno drum, your spinning it, so it has some sort of built in mass inertia calculation(moment of inertia something like that) that it uses to calculate hp instead of the normal way.

I have not seen an issue of tire pressure affecting a dyno output, but I do know that Dynapaks readings are direct - and remove the tire from the equation. Matt (the HITman) recommended Dynopaks to me, as he believes that the tire can affect readings. His opinion definitely trumps mine.

[Moseley]

not really... just saying that due to his gear ratios, on the street at 40mph you can take his torque curve, cut it down to 80% of what it really is and overlay it with mine to see which car is putting down more power.

[112480]

not really... just saying that due to his gear ratios, on the street at 40mph you can take his torque curve, cut it down to 80% of what it really is and overlay it with mine to see which car is putting down more power.

And TRUST me, at 40mph(5,000rpms) on a 5 speed; Moseley was definetly putting down more power! LOL! I wanst even at 200whp and 180wtq yet at 5000rpms on a 40 roll with the 5 speed.LOL! I guarentee he was at at least 215-225whp on a 40roll!

Oh btw, this statement is IN NO WAY AN EXCUSE FOR THE RACE, MOSELEY BEAT ME ALL THREE TIMES B/C HE HAS THE FASTER CAR!!

[Vteckidd]

Easiest way to explain this is think of a turbo car. When someone says "i make 500whp" the instant response is WOW THATS A LOT OF POWER.

Then someone says i make 300whp, people say "oh thats average"

Then when the 300whp car beats the 500whp car people go "WHY?"

If the 300whp car makes 300whp from 2500-7000rpms, and the 500whp car makes 200whp from 2500-6500, then from 6500-7000 makes 500whp, the 300whp car is MUCH FASTER. Its much faster all over the place, except for a VERY small part of the graph. the 300whp car makes 100whp more for 4000rpms, which is 90% of the graph and pull. Then you can factor in gearing, like where someone is at in their individual gear at what time and at what RPM, then it gets even more of an advantage.

Thats the easiest wat in my mind to explain it

(BTW i learned all this in EFI 101, so i recommend taking the class if you can when it comes here. Its pretty awesome)

[David88vert]

(BTW i learned all this in EFI 101, so i recommend taking the class if you can when it comes here. Its pretty awesome)

It is a good course; however, they don't have any classes planned for here on their calendar. The alternative is here:
http://efituningtech.com/

[Vteckidd]

It is a good course; however, they don't have any classes planned for here on their calendar. The alternative is here:
http://efituningtech.com/

yeah i took mine 4 years ago. It will usually change once we get near may or june they usually add a date in in the SE. But i recommend any of those classes, its a good thing to just LEARN. It DOESNT make you a tuner, but what it does is really explain the science behind our hobby. Like when you look at a Crome map, what do those numbers mean? What is injector duty cycle , what is volumetric efficiency, BSFC, all kinds of other stuff that normally id go "WHAT?".

I learned a lot from it

[Moseley]

And TRUST me, at 40mph(5,000rpms) on a 5 speed; Moseley was definetly putting down more power! LOL! I wanst even at 200whp and 180wtq yet at 5000rpms on a 40 roll with the 5 speed.LOL! I guarentee he was at at least 215-225whp on a 40roll!

Oh btw, this statement is IN NO WAY AN EXCUSE FOR THE RACE, MOSELEY BEAT ME ALL THREE TIMES B/C HE HAS THE FASTER CAR!!

Gregg I wouldn't say I had the faster car... from 40mph yes I did and probably from less than 40mph too. But beyond 40mph it would be a toss up, depending upon the starting speed... with higher speeds favoring your car more due to the raw power.

50 roll both in 2nd. probably a closer race. 60 roll with me in 3rd, you would win by a good car or two. 70 roll with us both in 3rd, I would probably win by a car, anything higher you would win for sure.

[112480]

50 roll both in 2nd. probably a closer race. 60 roll with me in 3rd, you would win by a good car or two. 70 roll with us both in 3rd, I would probably win by a car, anything higher you would win for sure.

This is true, but its much better to meet on even ground. i.e both of us at 40mph and roll out

[Vteckidd]

what we basically find out is 90% of all the shops have dynojets because they are FAR Cheaper than the dyno like Forged has. Dynojets are $30,000-40,000 for 2-4wd. The Forged Load Bearing dyno is $80,000-100,000 but you can do so much more with the Load bearing. Tuning on a dynojet is an educated guess in reality, where with a load based dyno you can calculate brake specific fuel consumption, injector duty cycle, etc PER RPM which you cant do with a dynojet

[David88vert]

what we basically find out is 90% of all the shops have dynojets because they are FAR Cheaper than the dyno like Forged has. Dynojets are $30,000-40,000 for 2-4wd. The Forged Load Bearing dyno is $80,000-100,000 but you can do so much more with the Load bearing. Tuning on a dynojet is an educated guess in reality, where with a load based dyno you can calculate brake specific fuel consumption, injector duty cycle, etc PER RPM which you cant do with a dynojet

Forged has a Dyno Dynamics model and it is my favorite, as it is the easiest dyno that I have used. It is much more expensive, but worth it in my opinion.
Tuning with either a DynoJet or a Dyno Dynamics is the same - you cannot hold a car in high rpm on the Dyno Dynamics anymore than on a DynoJet. When it comes to tuning at the high end of the scale, you will always be taking reading and extrapolating the data to make your map.
BTW - if you took the class 4 years ago, you probably went to Forged for the class and it was probably taught by Chris Macellaro - who know owns EFI Tuning Technologies.

[Vteckidd]

Forged has a Dyno Dynamics model and it is my favorite, as it is the easiest dyno that I have used. It is much more expensive, but worth it in my opinion.
Tuning with either a DynoJet or a Dyno Dynamics is the same - you cannot hold a car in high rpm on the Dyno Dynamics anymore than on a DynoJet. When it comes to tuning at the high end of the scale, you will always be taking reading and extrapolating the data to make your map.

correct but the way i interpreted it (and i am NOT a tuner) is that on a dyno dynamics or load bearing it is MUCH easier to tune and predict the rest of the map, than it is on a Dynojet. Obviously you cant hold a car at redline and tune it (i mean you can but BOOM). But the dyno jet its much harder to keep things consistent vs the dyno dynamics.

But obviously people like Scotty, Morris , Dan Willie etc can figure out how to tune safely on a dynojet so im sure theres pros and cons

BTW - if you took the class 4 years ago, you probably went to Forged for the class and it was probably taught by Chris Macellaro - who know owns EFI Tuning Technologies.

That was my instructor, and he was a great guy. Very knowledgable

[1civic]

not really... just saying that due to his gear ratios, on the street at 40mph you can take his torque curve, cut it down to 80% of what it really is and overlay it with mine to see which car is putting down more power.

ok, yes I know that much..lol, you brainy'acks get in depth and it gets hard to decipher..

[112480]

ok, yes I know that much..lol, you brainy'acks get in depth and it gets hard to decipher..

What, u thought we were just a bunch of "roll racers"? LOL!

[David88vert]

A dyno is a tuning tool, and any dyno can be manipulated. You don't race dyno numbers, so don't worry about them. Just use them to help you find maximum cylinder pressure to make horsepower and torque.

[Vteckidd]

A dyno is a tuning tool, and any dyno can be manipulated. You don't race dyno numbers, so don't worry about them. Just use them to help you find maximum cylinder pressure to make horsepower and torque.

which is what Don from DFE taught me. YOu really dont care about whp, you are searching for maximum cylinder pressure. At that point your motor is max VE, and you cant physically make any more power, and you have found what you are really searching for which ISNT peak WHP, its PEAK TQ :P

[Moseley]

Whats funny mike is that we put 50psi in the tires when it was on the dyno just to see if it would make more and it DIDNT! charles was kinda shocked but it didnt make any more power at 50psi than it did at 30psi.

I don't think 30psi to 50psi would make a difference. but if you had a big tire like a slick @ 10psi it would be interesting to see the difference between 10psi and 30psi

which is what Don from DFE taught me. YOu really dont care about whp, you are searching for maximum cylinder pressure. At that point your motor is max VE, and you cant physically make any more power, and you have found what you are really searching for which ISNT peak WHP, its PEAK TQ :P

Maybe in a B series where peak TQ can be @ 8000+ rpms LOL. With a K, unless it is an all out drag motor, peak torque is not really usable. the curve is way more important.

edit: variable cam timing of course is why that is all different. on a B it would make perfect sense to me to tune the shit out of a motor (not just ECU tuning, parts tuning) in search for peak torque. then once you find that you move on from that point. But with a variable cam it is a lot more difficult to find a single sweet spot. you need to find parts that work well over a broad range.

[Vteckidd]

Maybe in a B series where peak TQ can be @ 8000+ rpms LOL. With a K, unless it is an all out drag motor, peak torque is not really usable. the curve is way more important

Well im also talking about on an engine dyno vs chassis dyno. Usually in Bs peak TQ is around VTEC or slightly after then it almost always falls (1.8 to 2.0 liter motors at least). Very rarely does a B motor make peak whp at peak TQ especially one revving to 9000+. But its like a slingshot, you keep increasing TQ you almost always increase peak hp, usually.

At if you reach the point of peak TQ, you have pretty much maxed out your cylinder pressure, which means the motor will not make any more power unless you change something. Ironically john from hytech and Don always said that the best motor (at the time) was a 2.0l (k20 or B20vtec) because it was very easy to get them to run over 100% VE. The 2.2 and 2.4s AT THE TIME didnt have the cams, headers, etc to get there. Obviously times have changed.

[Moseley]

At if you reach the point of peak TQ, you have pretty much maxed out your cylinder pressure, which means the motor will not make any more power unless you change something. Ironically john from hytech and Don always said that the best motor (at the time) was a 2.0l (k20 or B20vtec) because it was very easy to get them to run over 100% VE. The 2.2 and 2.4s AT THE TIME didnt have the cams, headers, etc to get there. Obviously times have changed.

Yes times have definitely changed. I think a certain heavy all motor car should show up at mainstream for a dyno day. no air filter, race gas, 4" wide tires, etc... and make everyone cry.

[Vteckidd]

edit: variable cam timing of course is why that is all different. on a B it would make perfect sense to me to tune the shit out of a motor (not just ECU tuning, parts tuning) in search for peak torque. then once you find that you move on from that point. But with a variable cam it is a lot more difficult to find a single sweet spot. you need to find parts that work well over a broad range.

interesting youre right i forgot about that. Yeah i would assume thats much different to tune because a B Series is constant, and a K is variable. K seems to give you more control.

[112480]

in a B series where peak TQ can be @ 8000+ rpms LOL. With a K, unless it is an all out drag motor, peak torque is not really usable. the curve is way more important.

edit: variable cam timing of course is why that is all different. on a B it would make perfect sense to me to tune the shit out of a motor (not just ECU tuning, parts tuning) in search for peak torque. then once you find that you move on from that point. But with a variable cam it is a lot more difficult to find a single sweet spot. you need to find parts that work well over a broad range.

Here Moseley, u and mike can used my old....um CURRENT dyno graph for comparison. mike post up a B series graph with similar numbers

[Vteckidd]

Here Moseley, u and mike can used my old....um CURRENT dyno graph for comparison. mike post up a B series graph with similar numbers

based on your graph i would stop revving at 7800-8000 and get a better final drive and get different gears to cut down your RPM drop. Theres no reason to rev past 8000 as your tq drops off hard. all youre doing revving that high is compensating for the time it takes you to shift. But you can see you make peak TQ around 5000rpms, and then it rapidly falls off.

IMO youd be faster shifting at 8000 (falling back to 7500) then shifting at 8500 and falling back to 8000.

Thats assuming a 500 rpm drop (which its prob more than that)

[112480]

At that point your motor is max VE, and you cant physically make any more power, and you have found what you are really searching for which ISNT peak WHP, its PEAK TQ :P

And yet still on the flip side in a roll race the peak TQ will not help you as much as the peak WHP but in a TRACK 1/4 mile race, TQ is EVERYTHING! BUT at the same time not the onlything.

[Vteckidd]

And yet still on the flip side in a roll race the peak TQ will not help you as much as the peak WHP but in a TRACK 1/4 mile race, TQ is EVERYTHING! BUT at the same time not the onlything.

they both kinda go hand in hand, and theres other variables. HP usually effects TQ, and vice versa.

I mean if TQ didnt matter then 600CC motorcycles would rape everything. They make like 80Ft/lbs, but its actually not that hard to beat a 600cc bike, because why they accelerate fast, they dont have the force (tq) a car does.

But now im getting way outside the scope of my knowledge haha

[Vteckidd]

Greg, this is an example i found to make the most sense

Horsepower is what actually moves your car down the street or around the track, and Torque is what tows a car trailer. Someone with high torque at low rpm would be a weightlifter on a bicycle. Someone with relatively high horsepower would be Lance Armstrong. The weightlifter may be able to tow a heavy load slowly, but Lance can maintain a decent torque at a high rpm. Guess who wins a race?

Just some examples i found. You can always look at Diesel trucks too, they make 600ft lbs/tq at 2000rpms and redline at 3000.

[112480]

Greg, this is an example i found to make the most sense

Horsepower is what actually moves your car down the street or around the track, and Torque is what tows a car trailer. Someone with high torque at low rpm would be a weightlifter on a bicycle. Someone with relatively high horsepower would be Lance Armstrong. The weightlifter may be able to tow a heavy load slowly, but Lance can maintain a decent torque at a high rpm. Guess who wins a race?

Just some examples i found. You can always look at Diesel trucks too, they make 600ft lbs/tq at 2000rpms and redline at 3000.

Good one

[1civic]

Oiling problem in the k24 has been found, but does his engine builder know the solution??

EDIT:
little more involved then just adding a pump, I just seen your post above mine so I had to add my 2 cents..

[112480]

Oiling problem in the k24 has been found, but does his engine builder know the solution??

EDIT:
little more involved then just adding a pump, I just seen your post above mine so I had to add my 2 cents..

LOL! I didnt say just add a pump and ur done, just letting mike know u can go past 8k without failure using a a2 or ap1 pump,BUT i didnt say that was it Liek i said b4, culprit or prit(s) have been found...................... whatever they were as far as power goes

BTW: Engine builder is Extremely knowledgeable and is from NJ! LOL! here. So i trust him the MOST didnt say he was the best, just stating my opinion

[1civic]

LOL! I didnt say just add a pump and ur done, just letting mike know u can go past 8k without failure using a a2 or ap1 pump,BUT i didnt say that was it Liek i said b4, culprit or prit(s) have been found...................... whatever they were as far as power goes

BTW: Engine builder is Extremely knowledgeable and is from NJ! LOL! here. So i trust him the MOST didnt say he was the best, just stating my opinion

I know he is, even I call him for info!!...LOL, had to crack a joke incase he reads it..

[1civic]

Info posted is nice to know, Still seems track tuning I.E street tuning would be the the best.. Given it's really hard to street tune, location and safety factors come into play.. Any thoughts on this? My understanding was dyno is only an aid for a tuner, a good tuner would come to the track and review the logs.. Then make changes as needed!! Comments are welcome!!!

[David88vert]

Info posted is nice to know, Still seems track tuning I.E street tuning would be the the best.. Given it's really hard to street tune, location and safety factors come into play.. Any thoughts on this? My understanding was dyno is only an aid for a tuner, a good tuner would come to the track and review the logs.. Then make changes as needed!! Comments are welcome!!!

Most racers do log at the track and make changes at the track. For the street car though, a good dyno tune is efficient enough, and changes are generally not required. Remember, the stock ECU works fine with a wide selection of engines - there is always a window where the engine likes to operate at.

[Vteckidd]

Most racers do log at the track and make changes at the track. For the street car though, a good dyno tune is efficient enough, and changes are generally not required. Remember, the stock ECU works fine with a wide selection of engines - there is always a window where the engine likes to operate at.

exactly.

I kinda have a similar argument for people that INSIST on buying 32 way adjustable coilovers. Im like "how often are you REALLY going to adjust the dampening?" most of the time these guys buy the $1500 coilovers, slam it on the ground and NEVER touch it again.

Just like a dyno tune is usually exactly what 90% of the crowd out there is going to need or want.

[91s13]

exactly.

I kinda have a similar argument for people that INSIST on buying 32 way adjustable coilovers. Im like "how often are you REALLY going to adjust the dampening?" most of the time these guys buy the $1500 coilovers, slam it on the ground and NEVER touch it again.

Just like a dyno tune is usually exactly what 90% of the crowd out there is going to need or want.

i use mines

[Vteckidd]

i use mines

yeah but 90% of the people dont. And 90% of the people couldnt tell me the difference between setting 10 and setting 30. I sold coilovers for years, and for a daily driver dampening is just an added cost most people dont need to pay for

[112480]

Most racers do log at the track and make changes at the track. For the street car though, a good dyno tune is efficient enough, and changes are generally not required.

x2