without the mighty K under the hood? how much does the engine weigh?Originally Posted by thundercatz1
without the mighty K under the hood? how much does the engine weigh?
joey the only problem i got letting somebody else drive it is this. If i blow it up i got to fix it well i dont have to but it will be me fixing it. If i let somebody else drive and they blow it up i still got to fix it lol. I told dad if you take it to the track with out me there and let somebody else drive it and they miss shift or something and blow it im gonna be pissed lol. Its alot easier to fix something that was my fault lol. i dont claim to be the best driver and there are a few things i would do different if this was a track car but he realy drives this car every day so i dont want to tear it up . when i get my car together you can drive it if you get a better time then me then when we go to alabama or some were you can drive it i have no pride in that . Im old id rather sit and watch honestly lol. Import showdown just about killed me and sure it was mainly cause i had the flue but had i been well i still wouldnt have had a good time. Its hard to work on it , drive it , look after your son, and then a damn axle breaks man what a day . the messed up thing is i barley left the line in qualifying after i got the axle in cause i was scared of breaking it to and ran the fastest pass of the day in the all motor class . All i was trying to do was get down the track lol. i realy do wish i could have ran one clean pass that day but shit happenes atleast nemo won.
252plus hp and 34.5 miles to the gallon all motor. 12.2 at 111
I was just messing with you lol, we will get together when you get your car out there at the track.
11.7@116- All motor H2B Integra
Good deal.
252plus hp and 34.5 miles to the gallon all motor. 12.2 at 111
2510, 250whp small t3/t4 .50/.48, 13.7 @109 and bad driving, 2.5 60ft. Never ran the 330 setup.
500whp of spinnin fury!!!
12.9 @ 104mph,1.7 60ft, around 2500lbs.23" slicks to big. Stock h2b w/ headers, no LSD. At Commerce
11.3 @ 117
Midnight Auto
MORRIS TUNING
this has been one the best thread in a while good stuff mike
BOOOOST!
LAG!
N/A all the way.
you think the outcome would have been diff. lol jk. i was really hoping we could have be in the finals together.
mike you can post the dyno of mine compared to your dads if you still have it
I had a drag gen III 57 trim t3/t04e running 7psi on a stock gsr in a 94' vx hatch that made 260whp and weighed around 2300lbs with me in it. I ran 12.5@114 on 22inch slicks with 2.0 60's. Then I bought a peakboost kit 60 trim t3/t04e put it on the same gsr swap and tossed it in a 93' 4 door dx that weighed just over 2600lbs with me in it. that car went 12.2@117ish with similar 2.0 60's on 22 inch slicks. I later put that whole set-up in a 92 cx hatch which weighed a good 300 lbs lighter than the 4 door and I never ran it...I kick myself in the ass almost every day for never running that car and never getting the set-up tuned. I have no clue how much power it was making but there is no doubt in my mind that in that hatch it was an 11 second car. Even with my shitty driving and 2.0 60's! the motor was 100% stock internally and had ~120k miles....20k of which were boosted and I literally beat the shit out of that car every day and it took every bit of it and wanted more.
Turbo cars can spin up and make boost prior to launch. Some EMS systems, like AEM, offer the capability to launch on boost. This involves retarding the timing. The big boys use automatics, and can load the turbos to launch.
Most of the fast locals are not limiting themselves to all motor.
Lynch - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gttUYDkeF1M
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
my lap top took a shit and thats were i had it stored nemo but im going to main stream tomorrow to get retuined ill see if i can get him to make me another one. I also dont think things would have went any different i beleive at inport show down i would have red lighted or broke a axle lol it just wasnt my day it was yours man and i cant take that away from you hell you had your own problems you deffently deserved it.
252plus hp and 34.5 miles to the gallon all motor. 12.2 at 111
owk d16 man your right dude im giving driving lessons every sunday at 200 there free to you lol. Im just playing man but yea your car could have made some very nice passes.
252plus hp and 34.5 miles to the gallon all motor. 12.2 at 111
Im not speaking of hondas but i know alot of all motrs that run as fast as they want to all motor 6.50 in the quarter so all motor is only limited by money in my book . Im talking about average cars anyway not pro ones thats realy a whole other ball game but like i stated before look what skunk2 is running all motor with how much hp and look what it takes to run that turboed there is deffently a difference. Although your right there are alot of things that you can do to take out the factors hurting turbo cars i still beleive it takes more hp to run the same times as all motor. Turbo is cheap hp hell nitrous is even cheaper hp and actualy realy reliable when done right just nobody does it right .
252plus hp and 34.5 miles to the gallon all motor. 12.2 at 111
jaqpan4 racing you were about 200 pounds heavier but you are the closest comparison boosted to my car yet . honestly thats not alot of difference i could say im sure my car is faster but yours could have been also . I realy been waiting for post like that cause everybody i know running 250hp boosted would be happy to run a high 12 thats alot closer we maybe getting some were now.
252plus hp and 34.5 miles to the gallon all motor. 12.2 at 111
Again, there isn't a specific formula to see how much disparity there is between a N/A and turbo car's possible times. The fact is two cars, that with a given amount of power, in the same weight chassis, with the same amount of traction, would theoretically run the same time.
A well setup turbo car will run damn good times for it's power too, but as you said turbo's are the "cheap" way out (in some cases, but again certainly not a rule) Since they are easier to make power out of, people tend to just go for big numbers and forget the rest of the "go-fast formula" so it can't hook, and is rarely setup to be driven to it's potential. Other just choose not to break everything on the car trying to force it to hook with way more power than it needs. Making 252whp (and I am NOT knocking your numbers at ALL) hook is a lot easier than mine. You are hooking 252 hp, hell I'm trying to make at least 330 TQ hook up in the same or a similar car. Makes the strategy much more critical. Every single variable's effect is increased DRAMATICALLY.
Who knows?
Actually, let me make it easier to understand. Go to any drag racing ET calculator. You will input your weight, and your horsepower. You will not input whether you are turbo, SC, or NA. Why? - Because it doesn't matter. What matters is that you can get traction. The only thing that touches the ground, and moves you, are your tires.
With that said, if you take 2 identical cars, both making 450rwhp, one with turbo, and the other with all motor, the car that makes more power under the curve should edge the other out. Usually, that would be the all motor car.
Turbo lag should not be a factor, if your car is setup for the track.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Yea, honestly with a better driver the 4 door could have gone 11's...I certainly had the mph @ 117 on slicks.....but with those short times it wasnt gonna happen. After I swapped everything to the hatch Im pretty sure my shitty driving could have netted some high 11's even with shitty short times.
Here is a sample of my driving when I had the 4 door..if I remember correctly I ran a 12.4 @ 114 on this pass. The clocks messed up on that run somehow and the 111.xx mph shown is not mine..it was up before I crossed the line. that same night was when I ran the 12.20@117 and it was not uncommon for this car to trap 115-119. As you will see I bog out of the hole, bounce rev limiter for a while then have a not so good pass:
Amen... this is what I think too. It takes way more fine tuning to be able to utilize the power of a turbo car to its fullest, especially with FWD. So most turbo FWD cars are not as fast as equally powered NA FWD cars.
It seems like most turbo guys prefer the cheap way (increasing psi or turbo size instead of increasing efficiency) and usually end up with on/off switches under the hood. That might be fine for an all out drag car but not good as a street & track car.
Personally I would love to have a destroked K24 with a twin scroll GT30. It would run on pump gas, spool low and fast, and rely upon high rpm instead of psi to make mid 400s at 12ish psi. It would be a beast on the street due to the ability to run 6-8psi in lower gears. That's my dream boosted street hatch and I think it would trash just about any Honda around here on the street or in the 1/8th. Sure it might get walked from a roll occassionally but it would always be a blast to drive.
I'll be honest, from what I've learned Moseley, the K-series can spool a much larger than traditional turbo rather well due to the head's awesome flow numbers. I know that my STOCK K20 was spooling a 35R with a .82ar hotside by 5000 RPM. That gives a 3500 RPM powerband, which isn't bad at all imho.
Your setup would be phenomenal however, if you could just make it hook. That's always the magic trick.
Who knows?
Anybody that owns a honda that has realy raced knows traction is the hold back . I think we can all agree on that and dont think for a minute i dont have traction problems. It took me a year at the track just to get it to hook were im at now and im realy topped out . By that i mean i run 20 inch slicks because if you look on a transmission calculator you overlay my transmission and a b16 tranny they come out the same gear ratio s if i run 22 inch slicks because most people run 24s when running h2b. In order for me to compete with a ha2b i have to run 22 inch slicks because h series tranys are so high geared . Like ive stated before my dad drives this car everyday so we dont want to run a b series. Im running 22 by 9 now and barely spinning at 6000 rpm off the line .if i make much more power im going to have to go to 24s which is gonna kill my gear ratio bla bla bla . The only reason im stating all this is because we were talking about fine tunning and seting a car up to use all its potential .
I mean your right most people want to bolt something together and go fast turbo is alot easier to do that . its still even easier to turn up the boost instead of actualy putting time and energy in your gearing and well just setting up your car for the track. that sone of the reason i started this thread was to educate people ( i was hoping somebody smarter then me would help lol) on what it takes to make a nice car . all you read is how much power people make and what they run. Yhe only way you find out what people realy actualy go through to make a car fast is if you know them personaly nobody ever post that stuff up. I dropped my car from a 12.8 to a 12.3 in about 4 times at the track with out making one more horse power. My point is dont get depressed if your car doesnt do what you wanted it to the first few times you go to the track. It takes time and effort to make a car go fast not just hp . Everybody has there secrets im more of a person that wants everybody to go fast and if you asked i would tell you everything i know to help you get the most out of your car thats just how i am. I read all about cars all the time making way more hp then there times show. I also read about cars running alot faster then there hp shows there supposed to. It just goes back to me saying try to get the most out of what you got .
The fact is were way behind the west caost and odds are everything were trying to do has already been done . Im more impressed about a all motor b16 running low 13s then a 650 hp hatch runnning low 11s. i mean fast is fast but your not impressive till you make your car faster then its supposed to be no matter what it is. Ill put it like this with out hopefully pissing anybody off. We all think spoolin car is fast as hell but he knows its a 9 second car and he is not going to be impressed untill it runs that . i feel like making the hp all motor that i am it should run a high 11 and im not going to be impressed unrill it does . I heard joey say tonight i have to admit such and such car is fast for what it is and its a 14 second car but for what it is and the power its making it runs better then any car he has seen like that before so he is impressed .
I know alot of you guys put alot of money in your turbo cars so when i say cheap horse power i mean for the price of a turbo kit and how much hp it adds you cant spend that on a allmotor car and get that much hp. i can honestly say i have never seen a 185 hp turbo car running high 12s . I can say a stock h22 with a h2b will run high 12s at 185 hp so thats pretty strong. I just see so many people save up years to do a turbo build just to run low 13s or high 12s when they could have done that alot cheaper and more dependable with a all motor set up. I f your only goal is to run tens then by all means go turbo odds are your not gonna do it all motor . I bought everything to go turbo for my next build but sold it all and decided to go all motor again . I simply dont have the money to run with jj spec or spoolin so why not run all motor so that i can win at import show down or some were like that. I know there are a ton of people on this site that would love to have a high 12 second car and if they new how cheap it was with a simple h22 set up they would do it instead of going turbo.
I sometimes wish i went turbo who dont want a 10 second car but the simple fact is if i pull up beside a 350hp turbo car and win ive done somehing with my little all motor setup. he wins who cares he was supposed to get my point . everybody has to just sit down and figure out there goals to figure out what they want . Im just trying to educate people so they can figure ouy what they wanna do .What i want is to have a chance at winning in my class and to impress e people and running low 12s or high 11s does that . A ten second car is a ten second car its always going to impresse people so i dont wanna take anythinmg away from fast turbo cars they have all my respect just make sure you gat as much out of your car as you ncan and you will have peoples respect simple as that . I saw jj last year running so close to tens in his single turboed integra that he couldnt stand it (11 flat if i remebered corectly ) and he was estatic i honestly beleive he was happier with it then running mid 10s with his h22 because the h22 should have been faster the d series wasnt supposed to run that fast . The first night i took the hatch to the track it ran a 12.8 everubody was happy as hell even jj was like all motor damn but i was disapointed because with the hp i fet like it shoiuld have run low 12s . When it run low 12s i was a little happy but its still nothing special to me because it should run high 11s.
Last edited by h22 jones; 09-22-2010 at 02:03 AM.
252plus hp and 34.5 miles to the gallon all motor. 12.2 at 111
To everybody that beleives all the variables can be overcome with a turbo car to run the same as a all motor car explain me this. Skunk2s all motor running 9s at 3xx hp and it takes them well over 600hp to run that with a turbo car. I understand what everybody is saying and beleive me i dont feel like i know everything thats why i opened this thread was to get answers . Everybody ask what if i use this cam or this piston they always ask about certain parts why not ask about whole setups . If when i got in the honda game if i could have read do this this and this allmotor and you will run close to this or this this and this turboed you would run around this time it would have made things alot easier. I read something a guy posted on honda tech the other day that realy hit home. A guy showed his time at the track and how much hp it was making (like 290 hp and run 10.9 all motor) but when asked what he was running he wouldnt tell started being real secrative. one of the guys pointed out that he had been on that site for years getting information and had actualy even called alot of people on there to find out certain things to but when asked about his car he wouldnt share any. Its honda tech made to help others so how is it fair to use everybody to build your car but act shitiy when asked about your own setup. Im sure there are somethings you dont wanna say but atleast help out as much as you can when somebody aske cause odds are you had to ask somebody before to.
I realy want to keep this thread alive i believe it will help others out alot thats on this site and any any information anybody has will help . Sometimes its the little stuff that realy wake a car up little sruff people wou;ld have never though of but that if somebody would have read before it might have stuck in there head and helped them out. I get on honda tech and read and read and read thats the only way to learn stuff and i could get alot bigger espons e posting this on honda tech especialy since there are alot more all motor cars . I would rather talk with people i know and maybe i can help then people in california.
252plus hp and 34.5 miles to the gallon all motor. 12.2 at 111
Let me make this clear. At the track, you do not race HP numbers, you race ET numbers. HP numbers are "raced" on a dyno only. It doesn't matter how much power you have, what matter is what ET you run.
The argument of which is better - NA or turbo - is dumb at best. They are just two different methods to achieving an ET.
However, if you take a serious look at motorsports that run gasoline fuel, you will see that turbo cars dominate the unlimited classes.
When F1 was unrestricted in the 90's, they top cars were all turboed.
Rally cars, limited in engine size, are all turbo in the premier class.
Outlaw 10.5 cars are dominated by turbo cars now.
If NA was the advantage, turbos wouldn't exist in any of them.
So, why did they go turbo? It's simple. Turbos provide a lot of power per dollar, and traction is what is hard to find, not power.
If you had a power limted class, with unlimited cubic inches, THEN an NA car would dominate. The only reason for that is because NA cars develop a more linear powerband than turbo cars - generally, thus supplying more power as an average through the power band. Again, that is a generalization, but usually true on cars with the equivalent amount of hp.
"Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Jones ur my hero, lol good Shit
11.3 @ 117
Midnight Auto
MORRIS TUNING
chris miller 8.50 @ 173mph turbo b series
jeremy lookofsky 9.10 @ 148 all motor kseries
is this what you relating to mike?
R.I.P Booga
M.A.P
F.D.L.R
Damn right I was happy for you to be running some good times. Last yyear(2009) I was extremely pleased with the d series and I will tell you why. I know what it take to make a fwd front wheel drive to run a low nine second pass at almost 160 mph. What is truly fun to me is to take something, really anything and tweak it just a little and make small improvements. The Teg ran a low 13 first weekend out and ended up running 11.1 @ 130.77 by the end of the year. I even drove it to the track one weekend, changed the tires out and ran some 11's then drove it home. I know what you are trying to get at with this thread. I could have pushed it farther over the winter but I had a bunch of parts laying around that werent going anywhere so I decided to put them back in service. I was really happy with the results as the first time out it went 10.4 @ 139 on a pump gas tune. I have since sold the parts as I needed funds to run my business this year and that was definately the right decision(just ask my accountant,lol). There will be new stuff coming up in the future and I am sure that it will be exciting to me as it will start off small and snowball into something big. As far as all motor vs turbo the debate will go on forever. I know some all motor guys(V8 world) that run low 6's, that is right, in the quarter, at over 200mph. It is all about how the chassis works, how the powerband works, how the driver works, etc. An all motor Honda that is properly built AND driven will beat a forced induction Honda with the same hp. The engine's broad powerband plays a huge role in the equation. Cant wait to see what you have coming out next year Mr Jones!
JJSPEC RACING - Central Ga's source for performance parts,fabrication, tuning, general repair and a whole lot more! 478 621 5000
I agree with both of you i just wanted to get everybody elses opion and also give everybody something to read to help them decide what they may or may not want to build in the future. It doesnt matter if its a turboed d series trying to hit tens or a all motor hatch trying to hit 11s as lonf as it is impressive for what it is you will be happy. Most people on here are not building ten second hondas there just trying to build something to out run there buddy . If you did your home work and found a little all motor build to run with your turbo buddies you might do it. Everytime im at the track somebody ask me how much boost you running lol and when you tell them all motor there like no way. I think people are just uneducated on what all motor can do so im not trying to jump on a all motor band wagon more just trying to educate on both so then you can decide what to do. if you go to import show down and you enter in the race with the turbo guys there are always twice as many people in all motor street as any other bracket . What is your odds of winning i mean realy think about it there is always going to be a ton of fast turbo cars built right that your racing against so you better have deap pockets and alot of knowlegde. I dont have deep pockets (no smart comments i spend my money on other things lol) but i do have knowlegde but its nothing that anybody else couldnt read up on and figure out . So you enter the all motor class there are half the entries and you actualy have a chance at winning even if your not a shop . i realy dont care what anybody builds as long as its done right but i do wish people would enter these competitions instead of running test and tune . If the import guys dont start backing the import scene and races there isnt going to be any thats just being real with you guys . Its all about having fun and you have to learn some were so the next race they have near you dont run test and tune run in the race its normaly only ten more dollars and it would help fill up the barckets and make these events worth coming to . Like i said if its all about winning to you run all motor everybody has a chance winning all motor if you dont beleive me pull up the times it took to win in the past . Any stripped stock h2b would have a good chance winning a all motor bracket and be a beast on the streets .
252plus hp and 34.5 miles to the gallon all motor. 12.2 at 111
I like the "dont just run t&t, enter a class and run" attitude. There are lots of times the quicker car wont win. They may screw up at the tree, break, miss a gear or have a number of issues haunt them that would let a slower car drive on past. I believe consistency > fast. I wish more people would enter so there would be a better payout and more exposure.
JJSPEC RACING - Central Ga's source for performance parts,fabrication, tuning, general repair and a whole lot more! 478 621 5000
damn no faith in my driving ability I guess. I have actually cut some pretty good lights before when I used to go out regularly,just takes practice. and WOT shifting helps too.
/\ truf
I respect everybodys driving abilitys but when the shit hits the fan i want to be the one enjoying it cause im the one going to get greasy fixing it lol. Ill put it this way we run a none interferance motor meaning our valve reliefs are so big even with the valve open all the way in vtec and the piston at top dead center they want hit the pistont About two years ago we had a brand new timing belt (honda) snap at 104 right at the end of the track . Well that shouldnt be a problem right the valves cant hit the pistons well they can get tagled up with each other then get bent to hell and back then lol. Instead of going into the valve relief wholes they will then hit the piston because they are all bent out of wack .It was a nightmare we got the head fixed put it back on heard a thump when we turned the motor over and the crank was cracked in the back main journal(bearing wasnt even hurt lol). all ths cause of a faulty timing belt now who wants to make a pass in my car and take on the liabilitys lol i didnt thing so.
252plus hp and 34.5 miles to the gallon all motor. 12.2 at 111
I wont let anyone run my car either....If some one ran my car and broke it they better be ready to pay for the fixin!
it was a joke guys. why would i wanna drive that slow ass hatch anyway??? lol Jones, take a new picture man that shit looks like a salvage yard photo. jk bro u know i joke a little.
It was more to joey then to you lol. I was more trying to make the point that I dont beleive i am a better driver then antbody else and i saw a oppurtunity to tell that story which realy sucked when it happened but it gives people something to read lol. if you havnt noticed importatlanta has been dead lately with out anything going so i been trying to give everybody something to read thats worth a shit or we could all go back to bashing houston lol were is he anyway. Trust me i probably joke more then you do lol. Honestly no offence to anybody on this site but if i was going to get a driver it would be jj (jimmy jones) or james berta not that joey cant drive i just have to stick with the old crew lol . joey is a young buck ha ha. Also there is a difference between fast and quick you stated my slow as hatch so i want you to get a turbo car and we will see who is quicker . I have a h series trany realy high fifth gear and it will do every bit of it lol .It might not be quick but its deffently fast.
252plus hp and 34.5 miles to the gallon all motor. 12.2 at 111
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