May the officers who did that die slow, painful, miserable deaths. I don't even want to share the same oxygen as white-trash people like this. **** Gwinnett County.
May the officers who did that die slow, painful, miserable deaths. I don't even want to share the same oxygen as white-trash people like this. **** Gwinnett County.
All of the information came from the autopsy report. It is public record. His family claimed that he did not take his medication, thus his behavior. Regardless, that many cops had him in an enclosed area, and were obviously in control of him. There is no reason for a potentially lethal use of force.Originally Posted by Turbo04
If a person has been struggling for a prolonged period, and has an elevated heart rate, then that is all the more reason not to use a device that could potentially kill them. Common sense for a "trained law enforcement officer".
You're a moron and a liar if you are claimin that you get your info from the DA's office. You did not get any info from the DA's office.
So, how a person is acting will definately tell you if they are on drugs? Mental illness couldn't cause it? Grow up and get some intelligence.
The quote is actually from one of his family members. You can also see the same statements in the autopsy report. Try reading for a change.
..... i live with the asst. district attourney
99 LS teg/
and you need to shut the f u c k up, about me being a liar... because once again you assume you know something....
just like the family could have said that the police pulled him out of bed and he was pissed they woke him up... that might have been an equally valid story. once again look at who is saying what and why they would say it.
how old are you... 16?
calling people liars when you have no basis for accusation other than your indignant little self
99 LS teg/
I doubt that also.
Look at the police report and the autopsy report before you open your mouth next time. While his wife said that he had taken medication for epilepsy originally, the report stated that he had no drugs or alcohol in his system. You started spouting off about the wrong case to begin with. You have no idea what you are talking about and need to stop with your misinformation. Look it the incident on any police forum - it's even posted there. Have your live-in/relative/whatever bring you home a copy of the reports. It's publically available.
I am a lot older, and definately appear to be more intelligent that you are. And that's not conceited, just simple fact.
Last edited by David88vert; 11-03-2007 at 10:12 PM.
Seems to me because he had been struggling like that for that period of time is exactly why they used the tazer in that manner. Going on your logic, if the suspect or whatever struggles long enough, then he should'nt have to fear a tazing because his heart rate is elevated? Regardless if they had him in an enclosed area or not, him struggling like that is not only a danger to the police, but also himself (although not really realevant any more is it?). Like I said earlier, its really easy for us to sit here after the fact and pass judgement, but none of us were there and the video will only show us one part of the story, mainly whatever the person who realeased the video wants us to see. It's quite obvious this isn't some mass orchestrated murder, it was an accident and until someone proof surfaces that the tazer is what killed him I will still believe that it was a case of the bad judgement on the police's part and they happened to taze the wrong person at the wrong time. If in fact he had NOT taken his medicine for what his ailment, then the stress of what was going on could very well have killed him, not the tazer. Everyone is so quick to put the blame on police everytime something happens, but the fact remains that they did not go to his house and stop him from taking his meds did they? Wouldn't that have been the catalyst that set off this unfortunate situation?
Let's see - the police released the video.
3 dead in Gwinnett alone in the last 3 years.
Multiple people dead in the US under very similar circumstances.
And you can't see a pattern?
You shouldn't use a device that is potentially lethal if the person is not a danger to you. Read the law. If someone has a baseball bat and is threatening to bash my car windows in while standing in my yard, I cannot legally shoot him. These cops were not afraild for their lives, and had no reason to need to use this amount of force.
Again, 5 times in under a minute? Do you realize that a Taser puts out an electrical charge? Do you realize that your heart is triggered by electrical charges? Common sense, people.
Watch the video again and show me one reason why they even needed to tase him to begin with. That many officers involved, and already in a room in the jail, and they needed to tase him? Again, common sense.
that poor guy... way to go gwinnett county.... well thats them at their finest again...... they dont give a **** about anyone.... i hate pigs they should all get fired and put in jail for the inmates to beat them senseless....
I'm not defending the police's actions as right, I agree 5 times in under a minute is excessive. All I am saying is while we can see the out come now, at the time and heat of the moment whoever had the tazer made a bad decision to use it that many times. I'm saying I doubt they were intetionly trying to kill him. You cannot however pull the common sense thing out, look at it from their perspective. Here they have an indivual who has already injured another officer, struggling like that. Regardless of how many officers were there if somone is struggling like that they can injure themselves just as easliy as any of the other officers. I'm my book if someone is reacting that way, and they will not calm down, that is every reason to taze them. Isn't that what the tazer is for? To subdue an individual while not doing any long term damage? Hell I think the tazer was an infinately better idea then bullets.....that could've been an option as well.Even if the tazer happens to kill people occasionaly, it's still far less then guns do. I just refuse to join in with the "bash the police" comments when they are not needed. Show me where they were found guilty in a court of law of murder and I'll join in with bashing them. Thats just it though, they aren't. Some bad choices accidently led to a mans death (even that is a stretch cause the autopsy was inconclusive). Dosen't make them heartless murders. Why can't some of you on here view street racing with the same type of annimosity as this? (I'm not referring to anyone in particular, just a general tone to some things posted on the board.)
But who was taking the footage of it all? Is there someone walking around with a camera... or what...?
If I kill someone accidentally, I go to jail for manslaughter (not murder). Because these guys were cops, and specifically because they were cops, they were not charged to begin with. It's the blue wall.
Think of it this way. If someone was acting crazy and appeared to be a danger to people in the mall, and you and I (as security guards) held the person, had them covered, and then tasered and killed them, do you think that we would be facing manslaughter charges, or do you think that they would say it was the dead man's fault (like in this case)? Be real. We aren't cops, so we would get locked up.
Your right for the most part, but the difference here is the man was in police custody. If they had been off duty and outta uniform then they would face the same reprecussions as us. But.....they were not. They were lawfully trying to restrain the guy, in a jail, and someone made a bad decision with the tazer that could've possibly killed him. Like I said there is no conclusive proof that the tazer killed him. As for the security guard situation you posted, had the man been acting like that when we would've had him covered and tazed him I highly doubt we'd be facing any serious criminal charges. Now if he wasn't struggling and acting like that and we tazed him after restraining him, your damn right we'd be in trouble. There was no other abuse that I could see like them beating him or anything in the video. Yes he was screaming don't kill me, but screaming that doesnt mean that they were trying to kill him. Hell if anything that goes to show you that the man was so worked up that you know his heart rate had to be crazy high. That right there, coupled with , if you believe the family, he had NOT taken his meds could've put him down just as easily as the ever popular "cops killed him with the tazer" the video portrays. We don't know the whole story enough to say the cops killed him with the tazer. What was this mans life like? Did he have health problems before this? If so what were they? Lots of things played into his death I think, and it just so happens the stress of being arressted and forcebly restrained like that bumped off his ticker. Thats what I think. Yes the 5 tazers did not help, and were unneccesary, but I don't think thats what killed him.
So you propose what?.... that police lay down and get walked over, and have no upper hand to enforce the law. and there is once again no solid proof that the taser did indeed kill him.
99 LS teg/
at least your wool will keep you warm in the winter...
when ever a suspect is giving the arresting officer a problem, they call the jail and tell them ahead of time. the jail then gets there delta team to go out and take the person out of the car and its all video tapped.
Just a few years ago, they didn't have tasers, and didn't have this problem. You struggled, and you got beat up - but you lived. A few goof hits and he would calm down. It's worked for thousands of years, suddenly we think that electrocution is better?
Again, that many officers, and they couldn't restrain him? Looked like they had him pretty much pinned down before tasering him. He wasn't going anywhere, and he wasn't a realistic threat to any of them. None of them looked worried that he was going to realy hurt them. Look at their faces and reactions. They could have simply thrown him in solitary for the next few hours and let him wear hisself out and calm down. That's one of the options that they used to use regularly. He would still be alive.
Make no mistake, in that case we would be charged with manslaughter. Know the law.
According to the autopsy report, he had no drugs or alcohol in his system at the time of death. At 31, and in healthy shape, he had a heart attack that cut off blood to his brain. Do you think that it's possible that 5x50K volts of electrical current could interrupt the electrical pulse that trigger the heart beat?
And now Gwinnett is using tasers on 14 yr old girls. Is this the type of person you want defending your family members? Someone who can't handle a little girl without potentially lethal force? Even better, feels they need the capability of using lethal force to save themselves from 6 yr olds? I have no respect for people that are that stupid.
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/met...aser_1106.html
All i can say is this give's me plenty of reason's to stay out of trouble and jail.I do remember the 1st and the las time i went to jail for fighting i was pretty sure that was the last time i would ever be there,from the time i stepped in the cell i was like WTF!! and watching this old guy (40+) age get hit with that gun just made my balls shrink like a bit C h.
I hate to see some 1 die like that when we pay them to do there job instead they kill our family and friends
It's easy to say that we'd be charged with something like that. The truth is we really do not know either way unless it happens.
Can you imagine the public outcry if they would've done things the "old" way by beating. Jesus christ, every black leader would be crazy up in arms over that. I agree with you that the old way worked best, but unfortunately America has become a country of pusses who make sport of law suits. If something bothers you now adays, you can sue and win at the drop of a hat with no recourse. It doesn't even have to make sense now. No one is responsible anymore for their own actions, this video is case in point. Everyone is quick to point out the use of the taser by the police, but what about the man's actions? The road to his death started long before the taser incident. Did the police go out and pick him off the street to kill? No. It started with the actions of the man, and was escalated by his own actions. If he was so healthy why in the world would he keep struggling? Obviously something with him was not right. Any normal sane person would not have continued his resistance.
As for your 5x50k response, it's all nice and good but wattage alone isn't what kills or interupts the body's electrical system. aka nervous system. How many watts do you think you get when you get a static shock? Can be 25k plus. The latest greatest taser you can buy puts out 18watts (power) 133mA (current) and 1.76j (pulse energy). From a 9volt battery. The more import spec is current. That is why it's so dangerous with home wiring, coils in a car's ignition system, etc. They can put out very very high amounts of current in very little time. Tasers have been around forever, if your telling me that something that was tested numerous times by private and public officials killed this man, without some type of proof, then I'd think your crazy.
Yes there are some bad cops, ones who think because they are cops they are above the law, but most are not that way. Think of it this way, how would you all feel knowing the everytime you go to work, there is a good chance some crazy SOB, with a gun will shoot and kill you? I can imagine that would be incredibly stressful. So when you have some crazy guy like that come in, struggling and fighting (after injuring one officer already) you'd be understandably trigger happy. Doens't make it right, but the world isn't right is it? The tazer did not kill him. Until some proof beyond what ppl think is presented, thats my story. In your own statement the corner found he died from a heart attack, not death by tasing. I think you wanna blame someone, blame the guy. The police did not go looking for him. Whatever was wrong with him (and there had to be something wrong, he wasn't acting sane) took him down that path, and while others made bad choices, they did not go looking to make those choices, it was thrust upon them by another. I'll check out the link you posted about the little girl, and we can stat another thread on that if you wantIt really has no bearing on this one..
Saw the video awhile back, despicable.
Just checked out the thread, honestly I agree that the age is irrelevant, the behavior is what is important. A 12 year old with a knife is just as dangerous as a 22 year old, 32 or 62. If the girl took a swing at him, would it have been ok for him to hit her? I doubt it. Shoot her with his gun? No way too much force there. yet what other options does he have? Words only go so far, and we cannot tie the hands of the police because some of us think "oh thats too much". And most of the time guns are way way too agressive and lethal a solution.
Spare the rod, Taze the child.....
lol srry couldn't resist....
damn thats sad
- Phu
So, you believe that a 6 year old is just as dangerous as an adult and full force should be used against them? You can't restrain a 6-15 year old by yourself?Just checked out the thread, honestly I agree that the age is irrelevant, the behavior is what is important. A 12 year old with a knife is just as dangerous as a 22 year old, 32 or 62. If the girl took a swing at him, would it have been ok for him to hit her? I doubt it. Shoot her with his gun? No way too much force there. yet what other options does he have? Words only go so far, and we cannot tie the hands of the police because some of us think "oh thats too much". And most of the time guns are way way too agressive and lethal a solution.
Spare the rod, Taze the child.....
lol srry couldn't resist....
If she took a swing at him, then he had every right to give her a black eye. No gun needed. Remember, he is supposed to be a trained law enforcement officer.
Do you want to treat juviniles as adults? If you are going to give them adult punishments, then give them adult priviledges and responsibilites. If you are going to treat them as kids, then don't treat them as adults.
Make no mistake, if a cop tasered my kid, I would treat it as an attack on my kid's life.
Last edited by David88vert; 11-08-2007 at 07:57 PM.
3 very similar deaths in Gwinnett in the last 3 years - unexplainable heart attacks when a taser was applied - how many people need to die before common sense reaches you?
If I shoot someone in the chest with a gun, and their heart stops working suddenly, then that hole in their chest had nothing to do with their heart attack? I would be innocent - since they just happened to die of their own accord at the some time? Listen to yourself again and see if you make any sense.
No he did not have every right to give her a black eye. I seriously think your way of thinking is very very flawed. Go back and read what I said again. I did not say that it was perfectly ok for him to tazer her. What I said was that the behavior should dictate the punishment. Arguing with a cop should not warrant a tazing, but taking a swing at one would be perfectly acceptable reason to use one. If my child had the nerve to assault a police officer without good reason (being told not to cuss in front of little children is NOT a good reason to assault) and they got tazed for it, I would be pissed at the kid, not the officer. Now a physical beating (read: Black eye) is NOT any where near acceptable. I can't even fathom why you would say that a full grown man is within his rights to beat female child for taking a swing at him. As you said he is a trained law enforcement officer, and as such he knows that a tazer to subdue an indiviudal is far less tramatic to that person then beating them.
Are you serious? Your telling me a 15 year old who MURDERS someone should be treated as a child? What about a 15 year old who rapes another person, same thing? I think not. There is a line where a young person commits a crime bad enough that it is clear they should be tried as adult. Granted that a young enough child may not have a clear understanding of right and wrong (i.e. pre ten year old) but if your in your teens you should have a very clear understanding of what is or isn't right or accptable. If your old enough to know the difference in right and wrong, and make the choice to commit a serious enough crime, then your old enough to face the punishment for it.Do you want to treat juviniles as adults? If you are going to give them adult punishments, then give them adult priviledges and responsibilites.
It's called being responisble for your own actions. Clearly that 14 year old girl knew swinging at a cop is not acceptable, so she got tazed. It's not as if the officer went looking for someone to taze. He was put in that situation by the girl. NOT the other way around.
OMG wow, your comparing an unexplained heart attack to a bullet hole in the chest. Gee aren't we compairing apples to apples with this one. Your saying that these unexplained heart attacks are all the tazer's fault, with no supporting evidence other then " it's common sense" despite the ungodly amount of research done on the tazer that clearly shows the ammount of electrical shock the body is exposed to from it is far less then the ammount required to disrupt the bodies electrical system. You know what, your absolutely right, it must be the tazer. I can't believe I was that stupid to look at the mountains and mountains of cold hard research done on the tazer and think for a second that it could be correct. I appologize for keeping my eyes closed.
You obviously live in a fantasy world. In the real world, what do you think would happen to these departments if it the coroner said that the taser caused it?OMG wow, your comparing an unexplained heart attack to a bullet hole in the chest. Gee aren't we compairing apples to apples with this one. Your saying that these unexplained heart attacks are all the tazer's fault, with no supporting evidence other then " it's common sense" despite the ungodly amount of research done on the tazer that clearly shows the ammount of electrical shock the body is exposed to from it is far less then the ammount required to disrupt the bodies electrical system. You know what, your absolutely right, it must be the tazer. I can't believe I was that stupid to look at the mountains and mountains of cold hard research done on the tazer and think for a second that it could be correct. I appologize for keeping my eyes closed.
Why don't you review the SEC filings on the company?
http://sec.edgar-online.com/2006/11/.../Section14.asp
If the taser and pd were not responsible, why did Gwinnett pay out $100K to the family and try to keep it quiet?
http://www.totalinjury.com/article_taser_settlement.asp
Think the taser isn't dangerous? Look what it can do to a 600lb bull.
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/break...ry.asp?ID=9126
****ed up
DA SQUAD # 13
I live in a fantasy world? Were you not the one who said the cop should have beat the kid? Imagine the outrage at that one.
Are you really gonna pull the sec report out and argue that because they have settled alot of lawsuits they are guilty and the taser is highly dangerous? American's are sue happy man, I've already addressed that. We can sue and win for anything now adays. Hence alot of times it makes more sense to just pay up, without a trial so that the image of the company is maintained. We have a nasty habit of passing judgement on companies (people as well) as soon as we hear they are in court. Even without the facts. So if a company is involved in any sort of lawsuit it hurts their value, even if they are not guilty so alot of times they pay to make it go away. Same thing for the police department, there was an investigation, no charges were pressed against the officers that I know of, you think the that would've been good enough for the family? Aboslutely not when someone dies in situations like this in america, the family must have money. They were prob going to sue, and the PD decided that it would be better for their image to just pay and make it go away. Once everyone heard (much like this thread) that some guy died in police custody instantly the police are guilty regardless of the facts. Seriously, you want to continue to argue this man, bring me something other then inuendo and news reports that say some calf died after being tazed 42 times. Bring me some actual facts. I gave you some, the studies have shown the taser does NOT put out the lvl of shock needed to interupt the bodies electrical system. I gave you information about how it's not just the voltage that is important when determining the danger lvl of electrcity. You want to argue that I live in a fantasy world, yet you throw stones at the PD and tazer and completely leave out the real people responsible, the man and that girl. THe man never should've been resisting in the first place, it never should've gotten to that point. The girl absolutely should not have taken a swing at the officer (Want more people to blame? Blame the parents for not, oh I don't know, being PARENTS) We're so eager to blame other people for our misforutunes and bad things it's pathetic. As long as I can blame someone/something else everything is ok. Makes me sick.
But Yes I live in the fatasy world. I'm tired of the arguing, it's obvious that neither one of us going to give ground on this, so lets call it a truce. I left you positive feedback for the discussion, I think we should let the thread sink to the bottom of the forum pond.
I have NO problem with you, nor with you having a different opinion. I simply think you are ignoring the obvious.
Evidently, Gwinnett thought that they should pay the family $100K. And they have 2 more on their hands now.
I can see your side of it, but I can't ignore the fact that there is no real proof that the taser killed him, even the corner report said that it was a heart attack but it was inconclusive what caused it, that does not be default make it the taser. I feel that everyone is ignoring the fact that there is way more to this then the video led to believe. But either way the discussion got us a good solid week of postings in
wow that is ****ed up. first of all they had his legs shackled and wrist in handcuffs before they left his residence. clearly they couldve easily placed him in an holding cell alone. i used to work at a mental hospital where ppl would be on stuff just as worse as whatever they "claimed" that he was on. at the end of the day, there is PROTOCALL for everything. including subduing someone who is dopped up and non-compliant. if I have SHAQ in handcuffs and bounds around his feet, I promise u that he cant do nothing but talk **** and/or spit...and he is 7'1 350lbs. That was excessive force...PERIOD. what so ****ed up is when they were first bringing him in the room and he was screaming, "I cant breath" the female officer at the door was smiling.
this F****%^g cops are real stuped
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