CALLOUT: DYNO CHALLENGE EVAN , MOSELY and KIZDAWAY

[112480]

hell i cant keep my shit running long enough so i can prove anything

LOL! I'll proly have the same problem nemo.

[112480]

Ok so I was mistaken in the way I took that you said you were going to go after the "fast" cars?

Yep right again sir

[05dc5s]

Yep right again sir

I think we both know what you were implying by that but ok its cool. Im glad we both agree that you need a running car deciding whom is going to be called "fast".

[h22 jones]

wish i was fast . It seems to stay running everyday though lol.

[chunky]

Come on guys, let's do this before I start traveling all over in June.

[Vteckidd]

Waiting can't believe there's no takers

[b@d @pple]

its easy to talk shit until the ability to prove or disprove ones shit talking becomes an option

[OnURleft]

Waiting can't believe there's no takers

Patience is a virtue. Maybe if you're so stuck on this you should find other things to pre-occupy yourself with. It's clear that both have mentioned they are down to do this...
One just bought a new house and works so much i'm suprised he even posts here
The other one just got engauged right after he finished finals
The 3rd doesn't post here much, hasn't been apart of this and has his numbers

It's crazy that your so worked up posting literaly daily because someone merely suggested your procedures dyno'ing the cars was not as accurate as it could've been. I fully support his claim based on the evidence you posted and think it is perfectly justified.
It's a great thing that you offered them this, i'm not denying this, just give it a rest and let us know after it has happened. This should be in O.T until it's done.

[Vteckidd]

If he has time enough to talk shit on the Internet he has rime to prove me wrong. Period.

I'm just as busy as anyone else but when someone attempts to discredit me when they weren't even present and received second hand info, then I'm down to set the record straight.

My guess is this wl never happen because all 3 will make excuses they are too busy or the drive is too far etc.

You can say they accepted all they want but until it actually happens it's a moot point

[OnURleft]

[QUOTE]

If he has time enough to talk shit on the Internet he has rime to prove me wrong. Period.

If the world were that simple...Sorry dude, globalization is making shit talking possible without much effort.

I'm just as busy as anyone else but when someone attempts to discredit me when they weren't even present and received second hand info, then I'm down to set the record straight.

My guess is this wl never happen because all 3 will make excuses they are too busy or the drive is too far etc.

You can say they accepted all they want but until it actually happens it's a moot point

Again

Actually if you go back and read the archives, Ryan suggested your procedures were inaccurate (which is true IMO), which in turn does dis-credit you. Sucks. That's not shit talking that's a response to information placed on a public forum. Sorry, live and learn you're unprofessional on a daily basis, it wasn't surprising to me at all you responded how you did.
Then...
No shit talking was present until you unconsciously assumed he was trying to down-play you when he was offering a suggestion that you procedures were not executed as accurately as they could've been, and you then attacked him for it. This creatied a shit storm drama fest. Again, no surprise there either.
I've since had 3 friends of mine buy K headers, and based on how you treat people who are even here to offer advice is why is directed them to someone else. Cute how you resort to playing the victim when you own unconscious behavior started the problem.

[Vteckidd]

You've already demonstrated your biased against me. You always gloat how you make people buy sething else other than my product which really is just a childish attempt at making me angry.

I sell plent of headers buddy so that's a moot point.

And you don't know the whole story , mosely AND Evan claimed I lied and rigged dynos because Evan was mad his car didn't break 200whp

I donthave time to explain it all to you go look it up

this doesn't concern you though so thanks for an opinion that doesn't really mean anythig

[OnURleft]

You've already demonstrated your biased against me. You always gloat how you make people buy sething else other than my product which really is just a childish attempt at making me angry.

I sell plent of headers buddy so that's a moot point.

And you don't know the whole story , mosely AND Evan claimed I lied and rigged dynos because Evan was mad his car didn't break 200whp

I donthave time to explain it all to you go look it up

this doesn't concern you though so thanks for an opinion that doesn't really mean anythig

This is only the 2nd time i've mentioned that, and I do that to WARN people what kind of person they are buying from. Again, public forum it's not all about you. You're
mad every time I read a thread with you in it, why fuel the flame that doesn't need any gas? You don't need any assists to piss you off more

It concerned me when your shit talking was affecting my friends.

I know what was said, I also know what was said sarcastically. I don't really care though because it turned into a shit storm online with plenty of false accusations and such.
However, I do support this happening because it's a mature solution, but to something that only one person cares about and if your going to want to get it done then your going to have to wait for others to find disposable time.

[chunky]

If the world were that simple...Sorry dude, globalization is making shit talking possible without much effort.



Again

Actually if you go back and read the archives, Ryan suggested your procedures were inaccurate (which is true IMO), which in turn does dis-credit you. Sucks. That's not shit talking that's a response to information placed on a public forum. Sorry, live and learn you're unprofessional on a daily basis, it wasn't surprising to me at all you responded how you did.
Then...
No shit talking was present until you unconsciously assumed he was trying to down-play you when he was offering a suggestion that you procedures were not executed as accurately as they could've been, and you then attacked him for it. This creatied a shit storm drama fest. Again, no surprise there either.
I've since had 3 friends of mine buy K headers, and based on how you treat people who are even here to offer advice is why is directed them to someone else. Cute how you resort to playing the victim when you own unconscious behavior started the problem.

That is exactly how this shit got started. Things became a dramafest because people that weren't present when the events in question happened formed their own opinions based on incomplete information. People that weren't present passed off their OPINIONS as being the truth, which is what you just did in your little parenthetical. You weren't there, your opinion is just that, not the truth. So don't use the two words in the same sentence.

[chunky]

This is only the 2nd time i've mentioned that, and I do that to WARN people what kind of person they are buying from. Again, public forum it's not all about you. You're
mad every time I read a thread with you in it, why fuel the flame that doesn't need any gas? You don't need any assists to piss you off more

It concerned me when your shit talking was affecting my friends.

I know what was said, I also know what was said sarcastically. I don't really care though because it turned into a shit storm online with plenty of false accusations and such.
However, I do support this happening because it's a mature solution, but to something that only one person cares about and if your going to want to get it done then your going to have to wait for others to find disposable time.

It's funny b/c your friends are the ones that do most of the shit talking against mike. Mike just defends himself every time they make a passive-aggressive remark about how he skewed the dyno test to make his header look better.

All this puts me in a sticky situation b/c I have no issues with ejohnson, kizdaway, or mosley. I think they're all cool dudes and I'm always down to hang out with them. I've also known Mike for a very long time, and I know that he would not risk his reputation by purposefully skewing a dyno test in the way he's being accused of doing. I have a personal interest in seeing all parties get together to work things out b/c it squashes the drama between people that are all friends to me.

[OnURleft]

That is exactly how this shit got started. Things became a dramafest because people that weren't present when the events in question happened formed their own opinions based on incomplete information. People that weren't present passed off their OPINIONS as being the truth, which is what you just did in your little parenthetical. You weren't there, your opinion is just that, not the truth. So don't use the two words in the same sentence.

Actually shit got started when thread maker started using threats to someone who made a perfectly reasonable suggestion. Maybe you should start reading more and taking sides less. It's true in my own opinion, because based on the evidence presented by vteckkid (his lack of a clear procedure posted on the thread) and the suggestion made by Moseley (this thread needs more information), I could weighe what I believe to be the correct, taking no sides. The procedures were not done as accurately as possible..simple as that. Anything more in depth is really beyond me. I stop after that

[chunky]

Actually shit got started when thread maker started using threats to someone who made a perfectly reasonable suggestion. Maybe you should start reading more and taking sides less. It's true in my own opinion, because based on the evidence presented by vteckkid (his lack of a clear procedure posted on the thread) and the suggestion made by Moseley (this thread needs more information), I could weighe what I believe to be the correct, taking no sides. The procedures were not done as accurately as possible..simple as that. Anything more in depth is really beyond me. I stop after that

I never fully read that thread, but I know that Mike would not run a car on the dyno unless it was up to temperature. He's run more cars on the dyno than most people on this forum, he knows, without thinking, to warm up a car before doing a pull. Aside from which, there were multiple pulls done on the SSR header until the power stabilized on the SSR header. Then the header was swapped, and more pulls were done until power stabilized again. It's really not a complicated thing. All that was needed was to show a general trend. Mike did not tamper with the ECU, there was no laptop present.

The only reason why the power appears to be changing on the dyno pulls is because the 1st run was a shakedown. The 2nd run wasn't revved out all the way, because mike didn't know what the redline was. Evan told him he could rev it higher, so he did. Then there were a few more pulls made until power stabilized. However, some of those pulls were lost when mike was trying to delete them from the overlay, but deleted them from the hard drive. There were more pulls made than mosley knows about. I believe Mike has tried to tell him this fact. The final comparison was legit. It showed the stabilized power of the SSR header vs. the stabilized power of the kiddracing. It's not complicated.

Anyhow, all of this stems from people that weren't there forming strong opinions & passing them off as the truth. You're allowed to have your opinion, but it's kind of a dick thing to pass it off as truth when you weren't there.

[OnURleft]

I never fully read that thread, but I know that Mike would not run a car on the dyno unless it was up to temperature. He's run more cars on the dyno than most people on this forum, he knows, without thinking, to warm up a car before doing a pull. Aside from which, there were multiple pulls done on the SSR header until the power stabilized on the SSR header. Then the header was swapped, and more pulls were done until power stabilized again. It's really not a complicated thing. All that was needed was to show a general trend. Mike did not tamper with the ECU, there was no laptop present.

The only reason why the power appears to be changing on the dyno pulls is because the 1st run was a shakedown. The 2nd run wasn't revved out all the way, because mike didn't know what the redline was. Evan told him he could rev it higher, so he did. Then there were a few more pulls made until power stabilized. However, some of those pulls were lost when mike was trying to delete them from the overlay, but deleted them from the hard drive. There were more pulls made than mosley knows about. I believe Mike has tried to tell him this fact. The final comparison was legit. It showed the stabilized power of the SSR header vs. the stabilized power of the kiddracing. It's not complicated.

Anyhow, all of this stems from people that weren't there forming strong opinions & passing them off as the truth. You're allowed to have your opinion, but it's kind of a dick thing to pass it off as truth when you weren't there.

Like I said much of this information was lacking in the thread. A clear and professional procedure was even unclear. Shops like Top Speed, Bimmerworld and others post their R&D with the utmost clarity so their is no question.
Step 1. xxxx
Step 2. xxxx
These are the precautions we took for the following steps.
These are the variables for the following steps
This is what our data shows, in relation to those variables
Step 3. xxx
etc. etc. etc. etc.. Obviously this a quick example lacking

Instead, I read something a little on the lines of...
-This is what it made
-look what I made
That's that. Pretty much a hasty generalization backed by what seemed to be something like "because I said so." "because my credibility doesn't need to clarify" ---- Obviously I am using a quick example again, lacking because I don't need to provide any more detail to make my point

Ryan then came in and suggested his procedures lacked and information was unclear. Mike took it personally and stabbed back, forcing Ryan to take defense. After that the "rigging" accusations were made (IIRC) etc.etc. I'm not involved in any of that because I push away from drama of that nature. I merely stated I agree with Ryan's original claim, it's that simple.

[chunky]

Like I said much of this information was lacking in the thread. A clear and professional procedure was even unclear. Shops like Top Speed, Bimmerworld and others post their R&D with the utmost clarity so their is no question.
Step 1. xxxx
Step 2. xxxx
These are the precautions we took for the following steps.
These are the variables for the following steps
This is what our data shows, in relation to those variables
Step 3. xxx
etc. etc. etc. etc.. Obviously this a quick example lacking

Instead, I read something a little on the lines of...
-This is what it made
-look what I made
That's that. Pretty much a hasty generalization backed by what seemed to be something like "because I said so." "because my credibility doesn't need to clarify" ---- Obviously I am using a quick example again, lacking because I don't need to provide any more detail to make my point

Ryan then came in and suggested his procedures lacked and information was unclear. Mike took it personally and stabbed back, forcing Ryan to take defense. After that the "rigging" accusations were made (IIRC) etc.etc. I'm not involved in any of that because I push away from drama of that nature. I merely stated I agree with Ryan's original claim, it's that simple.

From having worked with mike on a few high profile dyno tests with manufacturer involvement (not kidd racing), I can say with confidence that no matter what precautions you take, people will always make their own assumptions & try to pick apart your credibility. I think that's why mike uses the 2 step approach he does: 1) show what the brand name header made, 2) show what the kidd racing header made. Most of the people that are interested in a budget or knock off header don't care about anything else. They just want some assurance that the product will make power. Which it does. The test was never presented as the end-all-be-all of comparisons. Just a demo of how things worked out.

All the criticisms of Mike's dyno procedure stem from the fact that Evan's motor did not make anything close to the 21x whp it was expected to make when dyno tested at mainstream. The expectation of 21x whp stems from a false dyno plot that was given to Evan when his car was built. That setup certain expectations on the dyno that weren't met, and people got upset. Since then, I think Evan has been told what happened with that initial dyno plot he was given.

However, how good of an idea does Evan, or anyone else for that matter, have of what his motor should make on the dyno? I wonder how many times Evan has strapped his car to the dyno since mainstream? If there was any kind of counter-evidence showing that Evan's car made more power, I could understand the criticisms of mike's dyno procedure. However, there is no such evidence floating around to substantiate any of the claims regarding poor dyno procedure. There's no followup dyno of 21x whp that would show just how bad the dyno procedure was.

So here's the deal. The dyno procedure may not have been perfect, but there is absolutely nothing to substantiate the claims that poor dyno procedure substantially affected the outcome. Until REAL evidence arises to show that faulty dyno procedures produced a skewed outcome, the people parroting the same tired old lines based on incomplete information are themselves implementing following faulty procedure, accepting something as truth based on unscientific comparisons.

The comments about where the peak torque happens, where the VTEC point appears to happen, whether the engine is warmed up, it's all hearsay until there is another dyno plot to give those statements credibility. So you can't accuse Mike of not being scientific with equally unscientific assertions.

I hope that Evan & Luis are willing to make this happen. We're willing to make things happen on their terms. Shop is closed to visitors they don't explicitly invite. The dynos can be deleted off of Mainstream's computer afterward to keep results private. They get an hour of dyno time to tune their cars. I'm pretty sure that neither one has an ideal tune right now, and that could all be taken care of.

The internet has a way of making things a lot more dramatic than they need to be. This is just a chance to separate from internet/forum drama and get back to having fun doing what we are all trying to do, make power (not excuses).

[Moseley]

The only reason why the power appears to be changing on the dyno pulls is because the 1st run was a shakedown. The 2nd run wasn't revved out all the way, because mike didn't know what the redline was. Evan told him he could rev it higher, so he did. Then there were a few more pulls made until power stabilized. However, some of those pulls were lost when mike was trying to delete them from the overlay, but deleted them from the hard drive. There were more pulls made than mosley knows about. I believe Mike has tried to tell him this fact. The final comparison was legit. It showed the stabilized power of the SSR header vs. the stabilized power of the kiddracing. It's not complicated.

Oh yay this is back and kicking again... So what started all of this was that the dyno tests were poorly executed. So let's stop all the BS and talk about why. Here is the graph:


1st run: Was a shakedown, ok
2nd run: Wasn't reved out all the way, but who cares. It made it's power, the torque curve shows everything. it consistently made 4-5 more torque across the board.
3rd run: Look, another 4-5 torque all across the board. This usually happens when the car is still warming up.

That was all the info I had at the time, 3 pulls were done, each one showed an increase of 4-5 lbs of torque, so why was there not a 4th pull? On top of that... the runs on mike's header were done open header. You can claim it makes no difference but that is just speculation. There are many reasons why unbolting the exhaust can affect the power levels of a car. Running open header vs. full exhaust just adds in more variables to the equation. So from my point of view, this was a bad comparison because...

1) Never seeing the SSR pulls stabilize into any sort of consistency
2) Running one header without an exhaust bolted up

That is all I was trying to say from day 1. I never said the tests were rigged so I don't know where all of that came from.

Lately there's a lot of reassuring that there was a 4th pull made but it was deleted for the purposes of building the overlay. I find that funny because there was never any mention of that 4th pull until I layed out exactly where the problem was in the SSR pulls. So here are all of the pulls:


You know what is funny? If Mike had deleted the 4th pull for the purpose of building the overlay, wouldn't RunFile_004 be missing from the sequence?

[ejohnson88]

I can testify that there were in FACT ONLY 3 PULLS done on the SSR header while it was still bolted up to the car. The last pull was the pull that made 194.

But anyways, that's all in the past and that's all said and done. I unfortuntately have began working the evening shift at work for the summer and have been swamped with getting into the summer groove at Conference Services. And as Mentioned before I only finished finals 2 weeks ago and now I am beginning to see where I will have time in my schedule.

If you pick a point some time this week we can get together and get this all finalized and sorted out for the last time so that everyone can be done with this.

[ejohnson88]

Also funny things to note is the fact that the Torque spikes were clearly not tuned out of my header like they were supposed to be and should have looked more like the graph of the test header run... Which doesn't make much sense because the SSR Header was TUNED on that map, not the Test header.... and also a problem was recently discovered that has led to me only having 75% throttle this entire time. So... with some quick fixes and tweaking hoopefully everything cab be settled by the end of this... and we can just all agree on everything lol



Anyways Again I AM pretty much free for the most part this week so what days work best for everyone?

[Vteckidd]

I'm not going to debate it anymore. You can hide on the Internet and point fingers pr you can show up and prove me wrong

take it or leave it.

[Vteckidd]

No offense Evan you couldn't even rememeber what you made hp wise that day. Show up pr shut up

[Vteckidd]

As long as it's not Friday I'm free

[Vteckidd]

Amazing how I sent that pm to mosely 3-4 weeks ago and never got a response

[Moseley]

I could probably make it there tomorrow in the afternoon....

edit: Luis can probably make it then too. Who else is coming and is tomorrow afternoon even available?

[Vteckidd]

You guys are all adults you pick a time and tel me when and I'll set it up. Tomorrow afternoon is fine only times I canT make it are wed afternoon and Friday afternoon/night

but tonight, tues all day or night, wed night Thursday day and night are all open

[chunky]

Oh yay this is back and kicking again... So what started all of this was that the dyno tests were poorly executed. So let's stop all the BS and talk about why. Here is the graph:


1st run: Was a shakedown, ok
2nd run: Wasn't reved out all the way, but who cares. It made it's power, the torque curve shows everything. it consistently made 4-5 more torque across the board.
3rd run: Look, another 4-5 torque all across the board. This usually happens when the car is still warming up.

That was all the info I had at the time, 3 pulls were done, each one showed an increase of 4-5 lbs of torque, so why was there not a 4th pull? On top of that... the runs on mike's header were done open header. You can claim it makes no difference but that is just speculation. There are many reasons why unbolting the exhaust can affect the power levels of a car. Running open header vs. full exhaust just adds in more variables to the equation. So from my point of view, this was a bad comparison because...

1) Never seeing the SSR pulls stabilize into any sort of consistency
2) Running one header without an exhaust bolted up

That is all I was trying to say from day 1. I never said the tests were rigged so I don't know where all of that came from.

Lately there's a lot of reassuring that there was a 4th pull made but it was deleted for the purposes of building the overlay. I find that funny because there was never any mention of that 4th pull until I layed out exactly where the problem was in the SSR pulls. So here are all of the pulls:


You know what is funny? If Mike had deleted the 4th pull for the purpose of building the overlay, wouldn't RunFile_004 be missing from the sequence?

HP also picks up as IATs stabilize. IAT has a big influence in ignition. There are multiple scenarios that could result in power output increasing until things stabilize.

Regarding missing plots, if they're deleted before the next run is made, then the numbering resumes from the highest number present in the directory.

In my experience, I've seen zero gains on k-series motors going from 3" exhaust to open header for an all motor or supercharged car making up to 300whp. I tested this multiple times on the dyno, and I'm confident enough in it that I pretty much never bother tuning motors open header if they have a 3" exhaust. Otherwise when I'm tuning I'll do a few pulls open header to see what the max potential is w/o exhaust restriction.

I can testify that there were in FACT ONLY 3 PULLS done on the SSR header while it was still bolted up to the car. The last pull was the pull that made 194.

But anyways, that's all in the past and that's all said and done. I unfortuntately have began working the evening shift at work for the summer and have been swamped with getting into the summer groove at Conference Services. And as Mentioned before I only finished finals 2 weeks ago and now I am beginning to see where I will have time in my schedule.

If you pick a point some time this week we can get together and get this all finalized and sorted out for the last time so that everyone can be done with this.

Also funny things to note is the fact that the Torque spikes were clearly not tuned out of my header like they were supposed to be and should have looked more like the graph of the test header run... Which doesn't make much sense because the SSR Header was TUNED on that map, not the Test header.... and also a problem was recently discovered that has led to me only having 75% throttle this entire time. So... with some quick fixes and tweaking hoopefully everything cab be settled by the end of this... and we can just all agree on everything lol



Anyways Again I AM pretty much free for the most part this week so what days work best for everyone?

From the last time we spoke, I think you had mentioned that the tune for your SSR header left a lot to be desired. The throttle plate is an issue that should be fixed, but I wouldn't expect big gains from it. It's actually a common problem on k-swaps b/c there's no really good solution for the throttle cable bracket. Whenever it's fixed & the TPS is scaled properly in k-pro, the gains are minimal. The % reading of the TPS sensor is not linear, so 70% is really almost all the way open. Still, it's probably an easy fix and should be done.

I could probably make it there tomorrow in the afternoon....

edit: Luis can probably make it then too. Who else is coming and is tomorrow afternoon even available?

You guys are all adults you pick a time and tel me when and I'll set it up. Tomorrow afternoon is fine only times I canT make it are wed afternoon and Friday afternoon/night

but tonight, tues all day or night, wed night Thursday day and night are all open

I'm available tomorrow afternoon. Tell me what time and I'm there. Tomorrow will actually be a good day for me b/c I'm getting new wheels/tires mounted up & I'll probably be meeting up with matt earlier in the day.

[Vteckidd]

I also love how now it's "my tps wasn't right, my tune was off , the tq was spiking" all months later. If your car was so out of whack why volunteer it?

I stand by my claims, his car made as much as it was going to make that day on both headers. Period. His ssr pulls NEVER made more power than mine it wasn't even close. I did nothing to make that happen.

IF you disagree prove me wrong it's as simple as that.

[chunky]

Relax mike. We'll get it figured out tomorrow one way or the other. I'm glad it's finally going to happen. I've been curious about the truth of the matter for a long time.

[Vteckidd]

dyno is booked for 4pm tomorrow, be there or be square

[Jenson]

Dang, wish I could bring my pos

[ejohnson88]

Alright I will figure out a way to get up there around 4. Cya then!

[Vteckidd]

Evan did you get engaged? If so congrats!

[b@d @pple]

all this over a few horsepower?

[ejohnson88]

ANd Yes I did, and thanks!

[NEMO]

so whats the update?

[Vteckidd]

It's settled. It was a fun time out and new results will be posted later

[05dc5s]

It's settled. It was a fun time out and new results will be posted later

I really appreciate you picking up the tab Mike that was hella cool of you.

[chunky]

It was good to see everyone. The truth was established with some surprising results. Dyno plot to come.