CALLOUT: DYNO CHALLENGE EVAN , MOSELY and KIZDAWAY

[chunky]

Actually shit got started when thread maker started using threats to someone who made a perfectly reasonable suggestion. Maybe you should start reading more and taking sides less. It's true in my own opinion, because based on the evidence presented by vteckkid (his lack of a clear procedure posted on the thread) and the suggestion made by Moseley (this thread needs more information), I could weighe what I believe to be the correct, taking no sides. The procedures were not done as accurately as possible..simple as that. Anything more in depth is really beyond me. I stop after that

I never fully read that thread, but I know that Mike would not run a car on the dyno unless it was up to temperature. He's run more cars on the dyno than most people on this forum, he knows, without thinking, to warm up a car before doing a pull. Aside from which, there were multiple pulls done on the SSR header until the power stabilized on the SSR header. Then the header was swapped, and more pulls were done until power stabilized again. It's really not a complicated thing. All that was needed was to show a general trend. Mike did not tamper with the ECU, there was no laptop present.

The only reason why the power appears to be changing on the dyno pulls is because the 1st run was a shakedown. The 2nd run wasn't revved out all the way, because mike didn't know what the redline was. Evan told him he could rev it higher, so he did. Then there were a few more pulls made until power stabilized. However, some of those pulls were lost when mike was trying to delete them from the overlay, but deleted them from the hard drive. There were more pulls made than mosley knows about. I believe Mike has tried to tell him this fact. The final comparison was legit. It showed the stabilized power of the SSR header vs. the stabilized power of the kiddracing. It's not complicated.

Anyhow, all of this stems from people that weren't there forming strong opinions & passing them off as the truth. You're allowed to have your opinion, but it's kind of a dick thing to pass it off as truth when you weren't there.

[OnURleft]

I never fully read that thread, but I know that Mike would not run a car on the dyno unless it was up to temperature. He's run more cars on the dyno than most people on this forum, he knows, without thinking, to warm up a car before doing a pull. Aside from which, there were multiple pulls done on the SSR header until the power stabilized on the SSR header. Then the header was swapped, and more pulls were done until power stabilized again. It's really not a complicated thing. All that was needed was to show a general trend. Mike did not tamper with the ECU, there was no laptop present.

The only reason why the power appears to be changing on the dyno pulls is because the 1st run was a shakedown. The 2nd run wasn't revved out all the way, because mike didn't know what the redline was. Evan told him he could rev it higher, so he did. Then there were a few more pulls made until power stabilized. However, some of those pulls were lost when mike was trying to delete them from the overlay, but deleted them from the hard drive. There were more pulls made than mosley knows about. I believe Mike has tried to tell him this fact. The final comparison was legit. It showed the stabilized power of the SSR header vs. the stabilized power of the kiddracing. It's not complicated.

Anyhow, all of this stems from people that weren't there forming strong opinions & passing them off as the truth. You're allowed to have your opinion, but it's kind of a dick thing to pass it off as truth when you weren't there.

Like I said much of this information was lacking in the thread. A clear and professional procedure was even unclear. Shops like Top Speed, Bimmerworld and others post their R&D with the utmost clarity so their is no question.
Step 1. xxxx
Step 2. xxxx
These are the precautions we took for the following steps.
These are the variables for the following steps
This is what our data shows, in relation to those variables
Step 3. xxx
etc. etc. etc. etc.. Obviously this a quick example lacking

Instead, I read something a little on the lines of...
-This is what it made
-look what I made
That's that. Pretty much a hasty generalization backed by what seemed to be something like "because I said so." "because my credibility doesn't need to clarify" ---- Obviously I am using a quick example again, lacking because I don't need to provide any more detail to make my point

Ryan then came in and suggested his procedures lacked and information was unclear. Mike took it personally and stabbed back, forcing Ryan to take defense. After that the "rigging" accusations were made (IIRC) etc.etc. I'm not involved in any of that because I push away from drama of that nature. I merely stated I agree with Ryan's original claim, it's that simple.

[chunky]

Like I said much of this information was lacking in the thread. A clear and professional procedure was even unclear. Shops like Top Speed, Bimmerworld and others post their R&D with the utmost clarity so their is no question.
Step 1. xxxx
Step 2. xxxx
These are the precautions we took for the following steps.
These are the variables for the following steps
This is what our data shows, in relation to those variables
Step 3. xxx
etc. etc. etc. etc.. Obviously this a quick example lacking

Instead, I read something a little on the lines of...
-This is what it made
-look what I made
That's that. Pretty much a hasty generalization backed by what seemed to be something like "because I said so." "because my credibility doesn't need to clarify" ---- Obviously I am using a quick example again, lacking because I don't need to provide any more detail to make my point

Ryan then came in and suggested his procedures lacked and information was unclear. Mike took it personally and stabbed back, forcing Ryan to take defense. After that the "rigging" accusations were made (IIRC) etc.etc. I'm not involved in any of that because I push away from drama of that nature. I merely stated I agree with Ryan's original claim, it's that simple.

From having worked with mike on a few high profile dyno tests with manufacturer involvement (not kidd racing), I can say with confidence that no matter what precautions you take, people will always make their own assumptions & try to pick apart your credibility. I think that's why mike uses the 2 step approach he does: 1) show what the brand name header made, 2) show what the kidd racing header made. Most of the people that are interested in a budget or knock off header don't care about anything else. They just want some assurance that the product will make power. Which it does. The test was never presented as the end-all-be-all of comparisons. Just a demo of how things worked out.

All the criticisms of Mike's dyno procedure stem from the fact that Evan's motor did not make anything close to the 21x whp it was expected to make when dyno tested at mainstream. The expectation of 21x whp stems from a false dyno plot that was given to Evan when his car was built. That setup certain expectations on the dyno that weren't met, and people got upset. Since then, I think Evan has been told what happened with that initial dyno plot he was given.

However, how good of an idea does Evan, or anyone else for that matter, have of what his motor should make on the dyno? I wonder how many times Evan has strapped his car to the dyno since mainstream? If there was any kind of counter-evidence showing that Evan's car made more power, I could understand the criticisms of mike's dyno procedure. However, there is no such evidence floating around to substantiate any of the claims regarding poor dyno procedure. There's no followup dyno of 21x whp that would show just how bad the dyno procedure was.

So here's the deal. The dyno procedure may not have been perfect, but there is absolutely nothing to substantiate the claims that poor dyno procedure substantially affected the outcome. Until REAL evidence arises to show that faulty dyno procedures produced a skewed outcome, the people parroting the same tired old lines based on incomplete information are themselves implementing following faulty procedure, accepting something as truth based on unscientific comparisons.

The comments about where the peak torque happens, where the VTEC point appears to happen, whether the engine is warmed up, it's all hearsay until there is another dyno plot to give those statements credibility. So you can't accuse Mike of not being scientific with equally unscientific assertions.

I hope that Evan & Luis are willing to make this happen. We're willing to make things happen on their terms. Shop is closed to visitors they don't explicitly invite. The dynos can be deleted off of Mainstream's computer afterward to keep results private. They get an hour of dyno time to tune their cars. I'm pretty sure that neither one has an ideal tune right now, and that could all be taken care of.

The internet has a way of making things a lot more dramatic than they need to be. This is just a chance to separate from internet/forum drama and get back to having fun doing what we are all trying to do, make power (not excuses).

[Moseley]

The only reason why the power appears to be changing on the dyno pulls is because the 1st run was a shakedown. The 2nd run wasn't revved out all the way, because mike didn't know what the redline was. Evan told him he could rev it higher, so he did. Then there were a few more pulls made until power stabilized. However, some of those pulls were lost when mike was trying to delete them from the overlay, but deleted them from the hard drive. There were more pulls made than mosley knows about. I believe Mike has tried to tell him this fact. The final comparison was legit. It showed the stabilized power of the SSR header vs. the stabilized power of the kiddracing. It's not complicated.

Oh yay this is back and kicking again... So what started all of this was that the dyno tests were poorly executed. So let's stop all the BS and talk about why. Here is the graph:


1st run: Was a shakedown, ok
2nd run: Wasn't reved out all the way, but who cares. It made it's power, the torque curve shows everything. it consistently made 4-5 more torque across the board.
3rd run: Look, another 4-5 torque all across the board. This usually happens when the car is still warming up.

That was all the info I had at the time, 3 pulls were done, each one showed an increase of 4-5 lbs of torque, so why was there not a 4th pull? On top of that... the runs on mike's header were done open header. You can claim it makes no difference but that is just speculation. There are many reasons why unbolting the exhaust can affect the power levels of a car. Running open header vs. full exhaust just adds in more variables to the equation. So from my point of view, this was a bad comparison because...

1) Never seeing the SSR pulls stabilize into any sort of consistency
2) Running one header without an exhaust bolted up

That is all I was trying to say from day 1. I never said the tests were rigged so I don't know where all of that came from.

Lately there's a lot of reassuring that there was a 4th pull made but it was deleted for the purposes of building the overlay. I find that funny because there was never any mention of that 4th pull until I layed out exactly where the problem was in the SSR pulls. So here are all of the pulls:


You know what is funny? If Mike had deleted the 4th pull for the purpose of building the overlay, wouldn't RunFile_004 be missing from the sequence?

[ejohnson88]

I can testify that there were in FACT ONLY 3 PULLS done on the SSR header while it was still bolted up to the car. The last pull was the pull that made 194.

But anyways, that's all in the past and that's all said and done. I unfortuntately have began working the evening shift at work for the summer and have been swamped with getting into the summer groove at Conference Services. And as Mentioned before I only finished finals 2 weeks ago and now I am beginning to see where I will have time in my schedule.

If you pick a point some time this week we can get together and get this all finalized and sorted out for the last time so that everyone can be done with this.