All Motor CRX

**Vteckidd** · 10-19-2005, 10:51 PM

Pacman vs UTAH

Pacman Promo Video

Dyno pull
Enjoy

this is getting me siked up :ph34r:

**DrivenMind** · 10-20-2005, 04:56 AM

holy shit...

excelent music choice on the promo video too...

aren't you doing a B20/vtec set up in your CRX?

**Vteckidd** · 10-20-2005, 10:16 AM

yeah i have a b20vtec. my car is similar to his

**Vteckidd** · 10-20-2005, 11:02 AM

BUMP so 99SI will see this

**Jaimecbr900** · 10-20-2005, 11:15 AM

That car is fast, but I'm sorry.....homeboy likes to jump at the start of lots of races.

What kind of times is he turning at the track? What kind of power is he making? I saw both a run at the track and dyno, but no numbers at all. I know why they're doing it, but does anyone have any idea of what those are?

**Vteckidd** · 10-20-2005, 11:20 AM

he made 227whp. he does like to jump the launch. thats why they were fighting at the end od the UTAH race. It was for $2600, and UTAH has a 230whp b20/vtec

The track times are anyones guess. there are recorded runs of him running 11.7s. some people said he got to 11.3s in the 1/4, but i have not seen a slip of that. so the only credible evidence we have is 11.7s

**Jaimecbr900** · 10-20-2005, 11:25 AM

Car's have to be gutted then. 227whp vs 230whp and he gave 5 cars????

I know he was running slicks too.

**99SI** · 10-20-2005, 11:25 AM

where was that?

**99SI** · 10-20-2005, 11:26 AM

Even though he jumped the rex was nasty off the line. lol. Now mike once you learn to drive like that yours will be that fast too!!!! lol. jp

**Tank** · 10-20-2005, 11:26 AM

not knocking all motor but im at a lost on why to do it i thought about it but i could figure out why to do it so i went turbo can someone tell me the advantages and disadvantages to it say your 230whp crx vs a 600 hp civic coupe not knocking on anything but im lost when it comes to it just looking for some education on it

**99SI** · 10-20-2005, 11:29 AM

no lag for one

**Vteckidd** · 10-20-2005, 11:32 AM

thats the age old question.

My OLD GSR CRX that made 190whp, beat 200-300whp cars.

Its about throttle response and powerband. I GUARANTEE ANY 500-600whp CIVIC on the streets vs a 230whp all motor honda, if both ahve street tires, NA CAR ALL DAY LONG. now they go run on the highway, TURBO CAR ALL DAY LONG.

to me , all motor is more of a challenge. anyone can build a 500whp civic, IMO, not anyone can do a 220-250whp all motor engine. if a boosted car doesnt make the power, you tune a knob. if a all motor car doesnt make the power, its not so simple.

This motor is prob my last venture into all motor territory, at least with a B series. we will all find out how fast a 230whp engine NA in a 1800lb chassis is compared to guys like Nyteryder, Marshall, HIPSI, CT9GSR or whatever, etc.

**99SI** · 10-20-2005, 11:32 AM

It's a heck of a lot more of a challenge than going boosted too. Making high HP out of all motor is not that easy with a honda. If you are just going for max power then boost is definately the quickest/cheapest way. I just enjoy the allmotor myself. I looked at both and decided I wanted to see if I could hit 200whp with an allmotor b16. I've still got a little ways to go and a few grand more to spend but I think we'll get there.

**Tank** · 10-20-2005, 11:42 AM

hmm ok i see what your saying however im at a lost with the street race vs highway wouldnt the all motor get off faster and the turbo catch up with it in the end or something like that maybe we can run one once i get back from kuwait and when my car comes from the shop its a b16 no nos turboed and fully built i just want to see this personally but i see the challenge in it and props to the both of you on it

**Vteckidd** · 10-20-2005, 11:47 AM

well, HIGH WHP turbo cars are tradtionally highway kings. they can run 170-180mph. they have longer gears, and they have big turbos.

From a dig, the all motor car will catch traction faster. thus pulling. the turbo car on street tires will spin most of the time and have trouble going anywhere.

now on the highway were there is really no problem with traction, the turbo car might lose for a second, but usually itll catch it

**Tank** · 10-20-2005, 11:56 AM

hmmm so how does peter run 10's in his civic on street tires"if he does i have never seen it im just assuming" i mean when i was at the import showdown he was on slicks. and how does gearing change bro cause all i got is b16 tranny shouldnt be same gearin i know i sound slow ass hell man im just learning about motors internally

**99SI** · 10-20-2005, 12:03 PM

Peter's running slicks to make the 10's. The b16 tranny has a 4.4 final drive so you should spool pretty quickly on a highway run. Most turbo guys are running LS tranny's though as far as for the street(from what I've heard, may be wrong.)

**99SI** · 10-20-2005, 12:04 PM

Of course from the your sig are those 17" wheels you're running? If so then that's going to affect your final drive a little bit but not a ton.

**Tank** · 10-20-2005, 12:05 PM

there acually 18 but i got new lighter wheels that be on

**Vteckidd** · 10-20-2005, 12:09 PM

no its cool these are always good discussions.

Peter prob (im not sure) runs 24-26in slicks. he has not run 10s on street tires that i know of.
MOST turbo cars run GSR or LS trannys. they have longer gearing than B16/ITR trannys. on the highway this translates into they can get and stay in their powerband longer vs a all motor car that has to shift quicker.

now where it gets really tricky is redlines. if im shifting at 9500rpms, and a 500whp civic is shifting at 8500rpms. and he has longer gears, its anyones ballgame. ill be in gear longer, but ill reach my peak power faster.

it really gets into much more about gearing and powerband than what the actual motor makes.

its a very long complicated, interesting thing

**Tank** · 10-20-2005, 12:18 PM

hmm ok i can see what your saying i was planning on doing some head work to get rpms higher probrably when i get back from kuwait and if the turbo starts it spool at 3200 rpms what you think about that cause i believe that is where my turbo starts spoolin i cant wait to get her back so i can see some numbers and whats goin on its at ISP racing right now with peter so im hoping for the best but whats involved with building a all motor car

**99SI** · 10-20-2005, 12:26 PM

What turbo are you running? Some turbos will run out of breath above 8500 -9000. Some will continue to boost. Also correct cams will make a huge difference as far as how high and where you make your power.

**GTScoob** · 10-20-2005, 12:31 PM

Good read. I'm very uneducated with Hondas and really all-motor cars in general. Are Pacman and Utah from around here?

Good numbers though.

**Jaimecbr900** · 10-20-2005, 12:33 PM

The real key to all these cars is P-W-R.

You have a 2000lb car, with 200 HP, it gets off the line quicker than a 3500lb 400 HP car. The key is to race them long enough to where P-W-R doesn't matter, i.e. Highway. This is where the high MPH, high HP, guys make up for weight....via raw power.

It's all about what you want really. An all motor car typically is more dependable than a boosted car, although that too varies depending on how far you're pushing the envelope in a specific application. Boosted cars make more overall HP, but then you get traction issues. Again, traction usually only plays a part in 1/4 mi racing. On a roll, different things come into play.

I'm just impressed that you can turn 11's out of 200+ HP. That's impressive. Although people are usually not doing that in a car with A/C, radio, back seat, trunk, etc. either. So, again, it's about what you want.

If you want a quick car w/no frills, a light all motor gutted car is the ticket. If you want a quick car w/all the whistles, boost is the only way to get there because of the weight. Of course it's more complicated than that, but that's the jest of it.

**Vteckidd** · 10-20-2005, 12:53 PM

yeah, peters car ran 10s with a full interior, carpet, dash, seats etc. pacmans car is GUTTED with a dash.

**Jaimecbr900** · 10-20-2005, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by vteckidd

yeah, peters car ran 10s with a full interior, carpet, dash, seats etc. pacmans car is GUTTED with a dash.

True, but isn't Peter's car boosted?

**Vteckidd** · 10-20-2005, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900

True, but isn't Peter's car boosted?

yeah thats my point.

Turbo cars can USUALLY keep AC, PS, and a full interior and be fast

All motor Hondas, thats not realy the case lol

**Tank** · 10-20-2005, 01:32 PM

ahhh i see so it really is a matter of taste in a sense in what you want so let me ask in a lets say "light to light" what your saying is goin to a certain MPH would work out better for me than goin lets saya quarter mile distance oh and the motor showed up just now man

**93H22ACX** · 10-20-2005, 02:05 PM

Peter has ran 10's with Street ET's but not street tires...

side note... all you need is 187whp to run 12.8's NA

the power band is alot nicer but doesnt pull like turbo

a 400whp turbo car against a 230whp na car will be a good race from a dig.... if the turboed driver knows how to drive it should win.... just my opinion...

**SilviaK93** · 10-20-2005, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by vteckidd

we will all find out how fast a 230whp engine NA in a 1800lb chassis is compared to guys like Nyteryder, Marshall, HIPSI, CT9GSR or whatever, etc.

1800lb car + 165lb driver= 1965 race weight roughly divided by 230whp= 8.5 power to weight

3250 race weight (Z06) divided by 385whp= 8.4 power to weight

DAMN!!!! ---- That would be one close race. CRX would take the win from a dig as the Z would have more traction issues- at least I would. From a rolling start would be VERY close. This is motor to motor of course

!

Very impressive setup!

**Vteckidd** · 10-20-2005, 05:08 PM

itll be interesting motor to motor

it would be fun, and ill be in touch once i get it running smoothly lol

**Tank** · 10-20-2005, 05:14 PM

ok once i get mine out the shop and i get back from kuwait we'll get up bro

**Spin2nd** · 10-20-2005, 06:06 PM

Okay, here is my $.02...

Now before I get into this, I apologize for it being an overly simplified, and also to those of you who's intelligence I'm insulting b/c you already know this -- moving on...

I haven't seen anyone mention what is perhaps the biggest factor in determining how fast a car is gonna be (assuming we aren't comparing dump trucks to gutted CRX's). Peak power dosen't mean shit; for all intensive purposes we're gonna call it the Supra disease. Now I'm using the supra v mustang example b/c its something alot of ppl here can relate to. Although many ppl (especially on an import forum) will never admit it, Supra's are dyno Queens. Why you might ask? B/C going fast is all about area under the curve assuming the weights of two cars are at least in the same ballpark. Look at a dyno graph of the most beautiful 132,487rwhp Supra you've ever seen. It looks like a skateboard ramp. Yeah there's a huge peak but for most of the rpm range the car is making well under 400 hp. Area under the curve is the reason the 500hp v8 n/a domestic grags the 700hp supra by the nuts all day long. The mustang is making a greater power number (not to mention a very flat torque curve) for a large majority of the two car's rpm bands. Now there are ways to counter balance this difference with gearing and weight subtraction but if you put a small displacement turbo motor and a strong n/a motor in the same car this difference will be rather apparent. Compare the dyno graphs between the two cars and you'll see what I'm talking about...the total geometric area underneath the curve. Who's got a bigger box so to speak. Now this is assuming we're talking about a car with a turbo setup for big power (i.e. spools slowly but pushes a hell of alot of air). When you start putting quick spooling small turbos on you mess things up a bit because although you don't make the peak number you are making more power sooner which pays off and often more than makes up for the difference in peak power. If this dosn't make sense or defies logic run your concerns by me and I'll see if I can get it straightened out, I've been in a hurry typing this.

Bart

**HiPSI** · 10-20-2005, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Spin2nd

When you start putting quick spooling small turbos on you mess things up a bit because although you don't make the peak number you are making more power sooner which pays off and often more than makes up for the difference in peak power.

true, but up top (again depending on setup) the smaller turbos tend to choke things quite a bit so they have a super fast torque peak but higher in the revs the power falls drastically. with just the right turbo setup you can achieve a good power under the curve, but in general a well built NA car will win out on that front.

**Spin2nd** · 10-20-2005, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by HiPSI

true, but up top (again depending on setup) the smaller turbos tend to choke things quite a bit so they have a super fast torque peak but higher in the revs the power falls drastically. with just the right turbo setup you can achieve a good power under the curve, but in general a well built NA car will win out on that front.

Correct, there are ways to optimize the whole setup...hell, throw two small turbos on there and you've got a ballgame. Look at Barry D's old blue car...two small turbos that spooled quickly but still pushed enough air when combined to have a decent sized and relatively flat powerband. One thing I don't see enough of in the import game (granted I'm not that familiar so I don't know if there are reason's for this) are turbo setups hooked up to automatic transmissions. The ability to spool a turbo before the launch accompanied by the torque multiplication of a higher stall converter could make for some very nasty 4cyl turbo civics.

**BTLFED** · 10-20-2005, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Spin2nd

One thing I don't see enough of in the import game (granted I'm not that familiar so I don't know if there are reason's for this) are turbo setups hooked up to automatic transmissions. The ability to spool a turbo before the launch accompanied by the torque multiplication of a higher stall converter could make for some very nasty 4cyl turbo civics.

That's because, for Hondas at least, their automatic trannys suck ass. Typically a Honda auto tranny can only handle about 10% more H/P than the car makes factory before it grenades. Level 10 makes parts for some of the Honda auto trannys, but I have yet to see any of it really proven.

Sidenote: Holy shit! Mark it on your calenders, ladies and gentlemen! A CIVIL DISCUSSION about cars between the import and domestic camp!

I applaud you all. It is this type of content that I enjoy reading on IA.

**Vteckidd** · 10-20-2005, 07:02 PM

I said its about POWERBAND meaning , a car that makes power like a skateboard ramp, will have atough time on the street vs a much flatter more linear curve.

its all about your powerband, P-W-R, and gearing IMO. thats what makes a car FAST

**Spin2nd** · 10-20-2005, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by vteckidd

I said its about POWERBAND meaning , a car that makes power like a skateboard ramp, will have atough time on the street vs a much flatter more linear curve.

its all about your powerband, P-W-R, and gearing IMO. thats what makes a car FAST

Okay, I see what you are getting at...so not only will I continue the civil discussion, I will even acknowledge the validity of that statement

. Interstate roll racing evens things out a good bit as it allows a turbo car to 1) be spooled up and in his limited high rpm powerband, and 2) provide an infinite distance for which to carry on the race, or play catch-up, whichever the case may be. I don't know how many times I've heard; "yeah, you won, but I was comming back so hard..." On the highway you can go on until you catch up. Unfortunately for many narrow powerbanded cars, they don't fare so well when there is a finite distance being raced. Whomever reaches the finish line first, always wins.

Just to add another argument: IMHO, the roll race removes what is the biggest factor in all of motorsports...the idiot behind the wheel.

edit: as an addition to the beginning of this argument I would like to add that even during a roll race, a car with a narrow powerband may still be impeded by the lag or spool rate. An n/a, nitrous, or roots blown car is going to have much better throttle response and may be able to walk out enough in the beginning as to limit the turbo car's ability to catch up (unless you are just racing till that proverbial infinity I was speaking of

)

**Vteckidd** · 10-20-2005, 07:19 PM

i agree 10000%

**Jaimecbr900** · 10-20-2005, 11:05 PM

Great points. I'm surprised some numnuts hasn't come in and gotten his panties in a bunch yet. Somebody knock on some wood.

I totally agree that usable power is far better than a peaky power curve that only looks good when you use one number to describe your car.

N/A cars aren't as easy to build as some may think. It's about displacement, compression, revs, and fuel. Some cars have oodles and oodles of parts sitting in every shelf from Walmart to Jegs. That makes it easier to build. Also the length of time the base motor has been around helps because you have a large data base to start from. Small block domestics are a good example of that.

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