Question about Muslims (Keep Civil Or Will Be Deleted)

[toonz]

[Vteckidd]

im sure ill get flamed an called a racist or some stupid shit cause no one will read what im writing.

Like i said, i have TONS of muslim, islamic, middle eastern friends an we debate this subject all the time. Like adults. But i realize it might be hard to get a adult discussion out of this.....

[Vteckidd]

oh an ill also say that Extremist Christians(Eric Rudolph etc), are just as bad as Muslim Extremists.

[Brett]

im sure ill get flamed an called a racist or some stupid shit cause no one will read what im writing.

Like i said, i have TONS of muslim, islamic, middle eastern friends an we debate this subject all the time. Like adults. But i realize it might be hard to get a adult discussion out of this.....

I tried explaining what we are asking, But some in here want to make it about "Them" and avoid the real questions.

[RandomGuy]

I tried explaining what we are asking, But some in here want to make it about "Them" and avoid the real questions.

And what questions were those?

[4dmin]

No i think the Muslim Extremists bombing our embassys, and the WTC once, and the flying 3 planes into our building killing 3000 people put us in this situation.

Fact of the matter is that we are at WAR, we have always been at war . The only problem with this WAR is that we dont know who the enemy is, or, where they live. We know they are Muslim, we know they are EXtremists, we know they reside in the middle east and in the USA, but we dont know who is who and who is on our side. IMHO.

We had a chance to end all this 8 years ago with Clinton. He had the intel and the means to bomb bin laden, and he chose not to. He chose to watch football instead cause he had NO BALLS. Clinton was great at what he did, make people think everything was ok. He was a great politician, he was a horrible leader.

Now the left will say we went to war because Bush lied about WMDs. Yeah, so what. We had semi decent intelligience that said that Iraq had SOMETHING or they were TRYING to get something SOON. So maybe he POLITICIZED it a little to get approval. I think whats even more funny about that is the fact that even so fresh after 9/11 , some of the country still needed a reason to go after another potential threat.

Had we NOT gone to war, and removed Saddam, what if he wuld have gotten a nuke, or funded ANOTHER terroist attack against the US? then people would have said "oh bush didnt do ENOUGH to stop this". so you guys cant have your cake an eat it too.

Now the democraps say we need to pull out of IRaq. Oh yeah, thats smart. Leave a massive power vacuum to be filled by someone WORSE than saddam and all our soldiers that have died have died in vein. Why dont you guys come up with a plan, oh wait, they dont have one. Their platform is "bush is the devil, we need to change the policy in IRAQ, but we have no idea what that should be".




again, its the democrats that have no balls that are whining.

Now people will say that bush caused the 9/11 attacks with no credible proof, conspiracy theories, etc. Believe whatever you want. But freedom isnt free. I just think our generation is so lazy we dont want to fight for it. We just all want to work 10 hours a week an make 100,000 a year. We want so much from this country, but dont want to give anything back. 16 year olds can have $80,000 cars , but ask to fight for your country an its "fuck that".

I lvoe you paulina

to Jaime, your on to something. Ill say something thats gonna piss alot of people off, but i have had ALOT of muslim friends. Its a weird religion. Lots of people are very mellow. but, they dont want to stand up against the bad guys. They are very complacent. Most come to the US an milk it for all its worth, bad mouth us, but still lvie here . I dont get it. The religion as a whole has no balls IMO. They dont care for the most part. Many of my muslim friends, WHO ARE REALLY GOOD FRIENDS OF MINE, still think that Israel needs to perish. ANd since we support israel, we are targets. thats the heart of the whole matter, they cant let shit go. they are arguing over fucking rubble and will kill for the next 4000 years over it cause they are too stupid to wake up an say "this is a war that will never end".


/Corveys sermon

its funny everyone wants to always point the finger at Clinton... this is the issue w/ that... where were we when Afganistan was being invaded by russia? who invaded Iraq once already and didn't finish the job... the problems w/ the middle east started over 20 years ago...

you want the answer to the problem look in the mirror. we have put your selves there... idiots like bush telling people what they can/can't do w/ their country is why we are in this situation... muslims have been here as long as christians and shit we are in is only 20+ years old so you can't say muslims are the problem... hello why are are really in the middle east? what next iran, korea, pakistan, etc? next it won't just be muslims

we as a country need to fix our own problems at home before we start spreading our selves so thin... look at New Orleans... we can't even protect our selves from our selves

[Brett]

The ones that Jamie asked that for some reason you feel is an attack on a religion........

I mean honestly, when I said this statement earlier... do you not agree in the least?

Which in turn would take away the very thing terrorists truley believe they are fighting for.

Mean think about it. These extremest thrive on killing and putting society in fear.. But they do it in the name of "Islam" so they feel when they misread what the religion preaches. So if a religion turned its back on them and denounced what they do, Honestly, what would these terror cells have to fight for then? Its just a matter of people standing up for what is right and saying "No More"

And I would ask this question no matter what religion or race had a voice to make a change. Muslim, Jewish, Christian, whoever... Every religion has extreme nut jobs, Look at Eric Rudolph..... Look at Priests who molest kids... Its not just one religion, Its all religions who have bad apples, But until people say "No More Will This Be Tolerated" nothing will ever change.

[MachNU]

I might be a little to late in throwing in my two cents, but from reading Vtecs long responce pretty much said it all. But hey...

its funny everyone wants to always point the finger at Clinton... this is the issue w/ that... where were we when Afganistan was being invaded by russia? who invaded Iraq once already and didn't finish the job... the problems w/ the middle east started over 20 years ago...

you want the answer to the problem look in the mirror. we have put your selves there... idiots like bush telling people what they can/can't do w/ their country is why we are in this situation... muslims have been here as long as christians and shit we are in is only 20+ years old so you can't say muslims are the problem... hello why are are really in the middle east? what next iran, korea, pakistan, etc? next it won't just be muslims

we as a country need to fix our own problems at home before we start spreading our selves so thin... look at New Orleans... we can't even protect our selves from our selves

yes in all reality this all started with Clinton, that left wing liberal cocksucker started all this. Now you have all the democrats sitting here saying that "oh the war is bad, we need to pull out, it is accomplishing nothing...". I mean think about it, in i blieve 92, Osama, attacked the World Trade Center, by parking a U-haul full of explosives near the towers entrances to blow the place up, and pretty much failed. it was still attacked, but not that badly... So what happens Clinton pulls his dick out of Monica and signs a quick peace aggrement with Sadam.

But then when Bush is in office and Osama attacks again, with some proof that Sadam helped, and they suspected another peace aggrement, but no, Bush attacks back. That is the american way. Freedom is not free. This may be a bad look for the United States saying its nothing more than trying to take over more lands, or to conqure a land with oil. Is all bullshit. I love how all the democrats said that we went over for oil, but yet gas prices keep going up, guess Bush is just storing it for his own personal supply.

But yet after 5 years of this war, terrorism seems to be a scary thought...to manly terrorist. Becuase over the last 5 years attacks have started going down at a good rate. Even accross the world, attacks are alot less frequent. This war is a good thing, its showing that this nation will not stand up for attacks against its land, be it on our own soil, or the soil under the feet of our own troops.

I mean the muslim religion is even promoted that if you kill an "infidel" you will be rewarded in the afterlife. I mean any religion that promotes killing people who dont aggre with you is a VERY bad thing. Granted not all believers of this religion, do that, but any one that promotes that is wrong.

Then saying that we need to qorry about problems on our own lands is stupid. What problems do we have...Katrina, and New Orleans....thats ignorant. I am sorry but WHO THE FUCK BUILDS A CITY BELOW SEA LVL.....WITH A BIG ASS MUD DAM, stopping shit loads of water. They should have just made a Lake orleans out of the place. I mean give it a few more years another big ass dam hurricane is going to come through and wipe the place out again. There are very few problems this nation has, that cant be dealth with politics, police, firefighters, and paramedics. Let them handle theys problems while our soldiers handle other problems!!!!

This might have been more of a rant, and at some points off topic, but hey!!!!!!

[Dragonfly5338]

I mean the muslim religion is even promoted that if you kill an "infidel" you will be rewarded in the afterlife. I mean any religion that promotes killing people who dont aggre with you is a VERY bad thing. Granted not all believers of this religion, do that, but any one that promotes that is wrong.

If you don't have any real idea about the muslim religion, just what you've seen spouted on the news, I'd suggest not entering this debate.

[C22H19N3O4]

The religion as a whole has no balls IMO. They dont care for the most part.

That comment ranks you right up there with Echo419 and Tasuki Civic. Your post consisted of nothing more than a lame diatribe about Clinton, Saddam, and how Muslims have no balls. Just of curiosity, why do you associate yourself with people that allegedly have no gumption to bring about reform within their faith? Your comment ALONE is enough to fuel this anti-Muslim "discussion." I sincerely doubt it was Jamie's original intent to make disparaging remarks about Muslims.


I find it funny that our unyielding "war" on terrorism didn't prevent former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami from speaking at Harvard a couple of weeks ago. Someone had to approve his Visa and authorize security protection.

For a pat on the back, name the person that wrote the following statement in 1998 after the 1991 Gulf War:

"Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different — and perhaps barren — outcome."

[Hulud]

wheres the outcry here?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060921/...ian_executions

just some food for thought, this happened 6 years ago

[RandomGuy]

Fabianus Tibo, 60, Marinus Riwu, 48, and Dominggus da Silva, 42, were found guilty of leading a Christian militia that launched a series of attacks in May 2000 — including a machete and gun assault on an Islamic school where dozens of men were seeking shelter.

Why don't you people stand up against violence that is perpetrated by people claiming to be of your religion?!?! NURRRR durrrrrr

[{X}Echo419]

Fabianus Tibo, 60, Marinus Riwu, 48, and Dominggus da Silva, 42, were found guilty of leading a Christian militia that launched a series of attacks in May 2000 — including a machete and gun assault on an Islamic school where dozens of men were seeking shelter.

Why don't you people stand up against violence that is perpetrated by people claiming to be of your religion?!?! NURRRR durrrrrr

Ok that's it War over. some crazy "self-proclaimed" Christians did something mean so that excuses these radical muslims. it's time to come back home and build a big ass fence and hope no one gets in. after all if We leave Them alone they'll leave Us alone. and if we're lucky they'll stop shooting school children in the backs when they try to escape a hostage situation that We're probally responsible for anyways. and maybe, just maybe next time a group of muslim women are in a building and it catches on fire, when they run outside and don't have their Birkas(sp) on they won't be shot either.
I like this plan. sounds like a real winner.

[4dmin]

yes in all reality this all started with Clinton, that left wing liberal cocksucker started all this. Now you have all the democrats sitting here saying that "oh the war is bad, we need to pull out, it is accomplishing nothing...". I mean think about it, in i blieve 92, Osama, attacked the World Trade Center, by parking a U-haul full of explosives near the towers entrances to blow the place up, and pretty much failed. it was still attacked, but not that badly... So what happens Clinton pulls his dick out of Monica and signs a quick peace aggrement with Sadam.

But then when Bush is in office and Osama attacks again, with some proof that Sadam helped, and they suspected another peace aggrement, but no, Bush attacks back. That is the american way. Freedom is not free. This may be a bad look for the United States saying its nothing more than trying to take over more lands, or to conqure a land with oil. Is all bullshit. I love how all the democrats said that we went over for oil, but yet gas prices keep going up, guess Bush is just storing it for his own personal supply.

But yet after 5 years of this war, terrorism seems to be a scary thought...to manly terrorist. Becuase over the last 5 years attacks have started going down at a good rate. Even accross the world, attacks are alot less frequent. This war is a good thing, its showing that this nation will not stand up for attacks against its land, be it on our own soil, or the soil under the feet of our own troops.

I mean the muslim religion is even promoted that if you kill an "infidel" you will be rewarded in the afterlife. I mean any religion that promotes killing people who dont aggre with you is a VERY bad thing. Granted not all believers of this religion, do that, but any one that promotes that is wrong.

Then saying that we need to qorry about problems on our own lands is stupid. What problems do we have...Katrina, and New Orleans....thats ignorant. I am sorry but WHO THE FUCK BUILDS A CITY BELOW SEA LVL.....WITH A BIG ASS MUD DAM, stopping shit loads of water. They should have just made a Lake orleans out of the place. I mean give it a few more years another big ass dam hurricane is going to come through and wipe the place out again. There are very few problems this nation has, that cant be dealth with politics, police, firefighters, and paramedics. Let them handle theys problems while our soldiers handle other problems!!!!

This might have been more of a rant, and at some points off topic, but hey!!!!!!

sorry man your wrong... the US was supporting Mujahideen prior to the Soviet invasion... which if i'm not mistaken Osama was apart of... so basically we gave them weapons + money to 20+ years later kill us

all of this shit started w/ Jimmy Carter, then Bush Sr. invading Iraq... Clinton got the aftermath... cease fire was signed in 1991 and Clinton came in 1993 so you do the math... as i stated earlier you guys need to read alittle more then listening to Bush advisors point fingers at previous administration... Could Clinton authorized a war in Afganistan sure... but no president in history has waged war with a country in the last 3 months of his term... what would the american people say then... "look what clinton did put us in a war and threw it in bush's lap"... hello your saying that now and he gave bush's administration the details of osama and the options... almost 9 months in bush's first term BAM! 911.

i always find it funny when war is discussed w/ bush supporters they can't give you what we've done to help the world just what previous democrat presidents didn't do

[Hulud]

i love how you say that these christians are onle "self-proclaimed" yet you automatically assume that the violent terrorists are how muslims actually practice

so if these muslims are radical than so are those christians

[Jaimecbr900]

I sincerely doubt it was Jamie's original intent to make disparaging remarks about Muslims.

I think the world is actually coming to an end....I've agreed with both Hulud and pharm_teg and even 2jzkidd in one week......

That is exactly right. I NEVER made this thread in order to open a door for ANYONE to bash Muslim nor Islam. THAT IS NOT MY PURPOSE AT ALL. PLEASE STOP DOING SO OR THIS WILL GET LOCKED!!!!

I want to learn and get deeper than the normal US vs THEM BS.



Once again, only a couple of you have started to answer my questions directly, but quickly reverted to a Christians vs Muslims or Democrats vs Republicans.

What do Christians have to do with the perception that the Muslim community condones terrorism? To me, it would seem the media would be brought up wayyyy before any religion. That's a possible angle, right?

What do Republicans or Democrats have to do with beheadings and murder of innocent people? I know, I know this will spark the great "war" debate. Got it. But isn't that just mere finger pointing? How do 2 wrongs make it right? They are allegedly retaliating for "us" being there, right? Can they not do that in a civilized manner? It is one thing to take up arms against an opponent, but it is something totally different and barbaric to sneak up on an ususpecting and innocent victim and slit his throat on TV to prove your point, isn't it? There should be outrage against things like that. Weren't there lots of Anti-War demostrations all over the world that did NOT include beheadings?

Why is it that according to records there are millions of Muslims all over the world, not only in the Middle East, yet the ones that are relatively "safe" from persecution don't seem to be very vocal about attrocities and barbarism?

Why is it that 99% of the debates where this topic is discussed never answer the question directly? Why does it always go back to, "hey you did it so why can't I?"....or....."hey I don't like it but what can I do?"....or...."hey they started it...."

Every point of view will have a totally different perspective on the exact same situation. Noone is 100% right, but barbaric attrocities are barbaric attrocities no matter WHO commits them. There isn't a religion, God, or diety in this world that condones or even advocates MURDER. So we all KNOW that the Extremist of ANY "religion" are working outside what is truly taught in ANY religion. We ALL get that. We ALL should acknowledge that. THAT is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Only two people in this discussion have remotely touched on that and said "yes there is outrage and denouncement in the Muslim community" (although I'd really like to see concrete evidence of that, not because I'm doubting it but because I've personally not seen it before). Everything else being thrown around doesn't even remotely come back to my original question. It's all smoke and mirrors.

[{X}Echo419]

i love how you say that these christians are onle "self-proclaimed" yet you automatically assume that the violent terrorists are how muslims actually practice

so if these muslims are radical than so are those christians

everyone else does the oppiste. that was my point, and I did say "radical" muslims. maybe Islamo-facists would be better.
maybe if I saw more "muslims" protesting the violent behavior of people in the name of Islam and less celebrating in the streets after events like 9/11 I would be more inclined to make that distinction clean. and no I don't think all muslims are terrorists. a friend of mine is muslim and he gets pretty damned pissed when he sees the terrorists types on tv. so much that if we're watching tv together I avoid the news stations.

[{X}Echo419]

I think the world is actually coming to an end....I've agreed with both Hulud and pharm_teg and even 2jzkidd in one week......

That is exactly right. I NEVER made this thread in order to open a door for ANYONE to bash Muslim nor Islam. THAT IS NOT MY PURPOSE AT ALL. PLEASE STOP DOING SO OR THIS WILL GET LOCKED!!!!

I want to learn and get deeper than the normal US vs THEM BS.



Once again, only a couple of you have started to answer my questions directly, but quickly reverted to a Christians vs Muslims or Democrats vs Republicans.

What do Christians have to do with the perception that the Muslim community condones terrorism? To me, it would seem the media would be brought up wayyyy before any religion. That's a possible angle, right?

What do Republicans or Democrats have to do with beheadings and murder of innocent people? I know, I know this will spark the great "war" debate. Got it. But isn't that just mere finger pointing? How do 2 wrongs make it right? They are allegedly retaliating for "us" being there, right? Can they not do that in a civilized manner? It is one thing to take up arms against an opponent, but it is something totally different and barbaric to sneak up on an ususpecting and innocent victim and slit his throat on TV to prove your point, isn't it? There should be outrage against things like that. Weren't there lots of Anti-War demostrations all over the world that did NOT include beheadings?

Why is it that according to records there are millions of Muslims all over the world, not only in the Middle East, yet the ones that are relatively "safe" from persecution don't seem to be very vocal about attrocities and barbarism?

Why is it that 99% of the debates where this topic is discussed never answer the question directly? Why does it always go back to, "hey you did it so why can't I?"....or....."hey I don't like it but what can I do?"....or...."hey they started it...."

Every point of view will have a totally different perspective on the exact same situation. Noone is 100% right, but barbaric attrocities are barbaric attrocities no matter WHO commits them. There isn't a religion, God, or diety in this world that condones or even advocates MURDER. So we all KNOW that the Extremist of ANY "religion" are working outside what is truly taught in ANY religion. We ALL get that. We ALL should acknowledge that. THAT is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Only two people in this discussion have remotely touched on that and said "yes there is outrage and denouncement in the Muslim community" (although I'd really like to see concrete evidence of that, not because I'm doubting it but because I've personally not seen it before). Everything else being thrown around doesn't even remotely come back to my original question. It's all smoke and mirrors.

the way I see it there can only be 2 reaons people don't protest in the streets when innocent people are killed in the name of Islam and go absoultely bat shit when someone makes a cartoon of mohammed.

1. they support the terrorists and their radical leaders.

2. they're afraid if they oppose the gov'ts and terrorists they'll be killed.

personally I believe in some places it's option 1. but the majority of people are in situation #2.

[Jaimecbr900]

Here you go, this is a very direct example of what I'm talking about. Taken from today's news:

http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editoria...&rg=blsadstrgt

[Vteckidd]

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum! (If you desire peace, prepare for war!)

[cceinc]

I believe that the only way that the people of Islam will make a move to peace will be when the Clerics who have more power than the politicians of there respective nations. They can persuade an entire nation to protest or peace. A big problem is the lack of religious tolerance by all religions. I do agree that the peaceful Muslims stood up against all the violence and also stand up arm-to-arm with the Jewish and Christian communities to show a world where many religions can coexist in one land other than the US could be the catalyst for a better future.

[AtifSajid]

..I deleted my response for personal reasons.

[Jaimecbr900]

..I deleted my response for personal reasons.

Why bud? It was the type of response I was looking for.

[Vteckidd]

I have NOTHING against muslims. Just let me make that clear. as i have said, i have TONS of friends who are muslim, follow islam, etc.

I liek to think im a very unbiased person. Im fair.

I realize that most may not like my comments, but take them for what the face value is, dont read so much into them.

[Hulud]

I have NOTHING against muslims. Just let me make that clear. as i have said, i have TONS of friends who are muslim, follow islam, etc.

I liek to think im a very unbiased person. Im fair.

I realize that most may not like my comments, but take them for what the face value is, dont read so much into them.

RACIST!


















jk

[Jaimecbr900]

Here you go, this is a very direct example of what I'm talking about. Taken from today's news:

http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editoria...&rg=blsadstrgt

I'm going to bump this since noone has responded to it in the other page.

[Hulud]

I'm going to bump this since noone has responded to it in the other page.

what kind of a response were you lookin for?
i mean its about the pope pissing off muslims then wants to talk to them to make it better

[Jaimecbr900]

what kind of a response were you lookin for?
i mean its about the pope pissing off muslims then wants to talk to them to make it better

Well for starters, you said that it was difficult to get different sects of the Islamic faith together to protest. I believed you. I have no reason not to, and it made sense.

Now, suddenly a news report comes out that THOUSANDS of CLERICS and Muslims gathered together and agreed to protest against what the Pope SAID.

How's that work? Organized enough to protest against a cartoon and what someone SAYS, but not organized or outraged enough to protest against KILLING OF INNOCENT people?????? Again, how's that work?

So you can gel together for something that is on print or someone SAYS but not together enough to come together for something that is DONE????? What happened to "sticks and stones"???? How come they can get angry enough at a RELIGION or PEOPLE (Americans) to burn images, take to the streets and protest, even threaten to KILL people if they don't stop TALKING about Islam in a bad way?

Even in this very thread it's been shown that if someone stands up and says anything remotely derrogatory about Islam people get bent out of shape. Do they not teach "turning the other cheek" or "taking the high road" in Islam? It seems to me that is playing right into a stereotype you are trying to disprove, doesn't it? That's like someone accusing me of having anger management issues and my response would be to KICK THEIR ASS to prove them "wrong"????? Dur, dur....

[Hulud]

Well for starters, you said that it was difficult to get different sects of the Islamic faith together to protest. I believed you. I have no reason not to, and it made sense.

i try i try lol

Now, suddenly a news report comes out that THOUSANDS of CLERICS and Muslims gathered together and agreed to protest against what the Pope SAID.

How's that work? Organized enough to protest against a cartoon and what someone SAYS, but not organized or outraged enough to protest against KILLING OF INNOCENT people?????? Again, how's that work?

i dunno im not them, i was just throwing out ideas, not the real answers

So you can gel together for something that is on print or someone SAYS but not together enough to come together for something that is DONE????? What happened to "sticks and stones"???? How come they can get angry enough at a RELIGION or PEOPLE (Americans) to burn images, take to the streets and protest, even threaten to KILL people if they don't stop TALKING about Islam in a bad way?

you can say the same thing about anyone of any faith

Even in this very thread it's been shown that if someone stands up and says anything remotely derrogatory about Islam people get bent out of shape. Do they not teach "turning the other cheek" or "taking the high road" in Islam?

i dunno, maybe, maybe not im not sure

It seems to me that is playing right into a stereotype you are trying to disprove, doesn't it? That's like someone accusing me of having anger management issues and my response would be to KICK THEIR ASS to prove them "wrong"????? Dur, dur....

and what stereotype am i trying to disprove? i am merely throwing out ideas, and if you think i am giving definetive answers you must be loco lol cause i am not in their mindset so i cant give answers, only suggestions

[Brett]

Well for starters, you said that it was difficult to get different sects of the Islamic faith together to protest. I believed you. I have no reason not to, and it made sense.

Now, suddenly a news report comes out that THOUSANDS of CLERICS and Muslims gathered together and agreed to protest against what the Pope SAID.

How's that work? Organized enough to protest against a cartoon and what someone SAYS, but not organized or outraged enough to protest against KILLING OF INNOCENT people?????? Again, how's that work?

So you can gel together for something that is on print or someone SAYS but not together enough to come together for something that is DONE????? What happened to "sticks and stones"???? How come they can get angry enough at a RELIGION or PEOPLE (Americans) to burn images, take to the streets and protest, even threaten to KILL people if they don't stop TALKING about Islam in a bad way?

Even in this very thread it's been shown that if someone stands up and says anything remotely derrogatory about Islam people get bent out of shape. Do they not teach "turning the other cheek" or "taking the high road" in Islam? It seems to me that is playing right into a stereotype you are trying to disprove, doesn't it? That's like someone accusing me of having anger management issues and my response would be to KICK THEIR ASS to prove them "wrong"????? Dur, dur....

very valid point.

[StupidBikerBoy]

I didnt read the whole thread, so Im sorry if I repeat something.


Im glad someone asked this question.

The Muslims that claim they are peaceful and that only 2% are extremists need to stand up for thier beliefs. Its not getting done like it should, IMO

And do you honestly believe there is some big media conspiracy to keep the ones that do stand up out of the news?? Come on. Not only is that rediculous, but Muslims speaking out would deffinately be a big story for the media. Just as big, if not bigger, than terroristic acts or Bush's weekly antics would be.

Then theres the millions of muslims in america. Why aren't they speaking out? They're not oppressed in any way.

What about all the leaders of the world that are muslim?
Or what about all the other Muslims that are famous for any reason. Why aren't they standing up?

I don't mean any offense to anyone, and Im not trying to insinuate anything. These are serious questions for me. I don't understand why a religion that claims its only about peace would allow these violent acts being done in thier name to continue without speaking out against them and discrediting them.

[Hulud]

yup, your right they dont speak out......
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...tory?track=rss
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Nation...431580703.html
http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...TOKEN=69018590
http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html
http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595063392,00.html
the list goes on, but i figured a few links will suffice

may want to do some research before assuming things everyone

[Jaimecbr900]

yup, your right they dont speak out......
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...tory?track=rss
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Nation...431580703.html
http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...TOKEN=69018590
http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html
http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595063392,00.html
the list goes on, but i figured a few links will suffice

may want to do some research before assuming things everyone

That's good. I liked a couple of those reports a lot actually. Probably because they are saying EXACTLY what some of us here are saying right now.

The Orlando report is a very good example of this. Professors, who are Muslims, express how they feel that other parts of the world do NOT back them up in their opposition.

Another great example is the article about the March in Washington DC. It was organized by the Free Muslims against Terrorism Coalition. They feel EXACTLY as most people do that it is up to Muslims to reverse the stereotype of compliance for Terrorism. He organizes a March and even inside the U.S. he gets opposition from his OWN RELIGION. The President of that organization is Kamal Nawash. HE says:

"Kamal Nawash is president of the Free Muslims Against Terrorism Coalition. Mr. Nawash, a Palestinian native raised in the United States, says that most mainstream influential Muslim American groups have not clearly condemned Islamic terrorist violence. "Most of the terrorism in the world is coming from Muslims," he says. "This is a very sensitive and difficult point for Muslims to talk about and admit to it. They'd rather not admit the obvious for the fear that this somehow might make Islam look bad."

He also added:

"We wanted Muslims to lead a march against terror - again based on the fact that only Muslims can deal with this," the president of the Free Muslims Against Terrorism Coalition says. "Of course, we hope that this march can be covered by Arab media and Muslim media and let the extremists know, 'Hey, we don't support you out here. There are people who oppose you.' The idea is to send a counter message. The idea of using this kind of violence for political change is simply not acceptable to us and we want to begin an ideological battle -- and this is part of it."

^^^^Which BTW sounds a lot like what Brett has been saying here since the beginning....take away their religious "ammo".

Ok, that is a very good step in the right direction, right?......Wrong!.....According to his own religious leaders.....this is what THEY said in return about the March and it's organizers:

"But several well-known Muslim-American groups, who claim to speak for the approximately 6 million Muslims in the United States, are withholding support for the rally. And some are openly critical of Mr. Nawash."

"All of the American Muslims I know feel as attacked by al-Qaeda as any other group of Americans," says Hussein Ibish, spokesman for the Progressive Muslim Union. "There were a couple of hundred Muslim Americans, or Muslims at least -- whether Americans or otherwise -- who were in the World Trade Center who got killed by al-Qaeda on nine-eleven. There were Arab Americans and Muslims among the police and among the firefighters who rushed into the building and got killed as well as people who worked in and around those buildings who died. There are at least eight thousand American Muslims who proudly serve in the American military in Iraq, and in the Middle East and everywhere else around the world. And I think...to apologize like that is to accept the idea that there's something that you could or should have done, something you've done that makes you culpable, and that your community is not pulling its weight in this. And I don't think that's fair at all."

Hussein Ibish says he believes Mr. Nawash is allied with what he calls "right wing" groups trying to make Muslim Americans look bad. "This kind of stance has a utility," he contends, "for people on the far right, other supporters of the extreme right in Israel and other right wing forces, including evangelical [Christian] forces, who want to paint the mainstream Muslim community and mainstream organizations -- whether liberal or conservative, whether secular or religious -- as all sort of disloyal, as having a secret, pro-terrorism agenda. So, I think, Kamal (Nawash) has made himself useful," Mr. Ibish adds. "Mr. Nawash poses as the exception that proves the rule, so to speak."


So again, I'm very glad to see that Muslims are seeing the same things everyone else sees. It should never be about Muslim vs Christians or Muslims vs U.S. or Muslims vs the world. It should be about right and wrong. It should be about humanity. And the human thing to do is to call a spade a spade and stand up against someone who is doing something wrong, especially if that wrong they are doing makes YOU look bad by association. In order to disspell any stereotype, you can't play right into the antagonists hand. If you do, you're not doing anything but proving him right and you dumb.

[Jaimecbr900]

you can say the same thing about anyone of any faith

We could, but we are discussing the Muslim faith in this thread.

and what stereotype am i trying to disprove? i am merely throwing out ideas, and if you think i am giving definetive answers you must be loco lol cause i am not in their mindset so i cant give answers, only suggestions

I know you're playing devil's advocate here. I actually appreciate that because it gets people to thinking there are two sides to everything.

The stereotype I keep referring to is the basic one of "Muslims don't speak out against terrorism, but do speak out against words or cartoons."

It's been shown here that is not correct, or is it? That is the question I'm trying to get answered.

[Hulud]

We could, but we are discussing the Muslim faith in this thread.

touche lol

I know you're playing devil's advocate here. I actually appreciate that because it gets people to thinking there are two sides to everything.

im glad someone is starting to notice, cause i like playing devils advocate, yet people get angry over it in here for some reason (religion forum in general)

[StupidBikerBoy]

yup, your right they dont speak out......
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...tory?track=rss
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Nation...431580703.html
http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...TOKEN=69018590
http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html
http://www.freemuslims.org/
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595063392,00.html
the list goes on, but i figured a few links will suffice

may want to do some research before assuming things everyone

I think I may have missed what I was trying to say.

I know there are Muslims speaking out, and i'm glad they are. What I mean is this is not enough, IMO. Basically, there should be some type of unity, starting from the middle east and spreading from there to completely alienate the extremists.