Scripture a day (Islam Edition)

[Sinfix_15]

Starting this thread to begin a debate on the actual scripture contained in the Quran. For starters, i'll give a brief introduction....

" The Quran (English pronunciation: /kɔrˈɑːn/^{[n 1]} kor-ahn , Arabic: القرآن‎ al-qurʼān, IPA: [qurˈʔaːn],^{[n 2]} literally meaning "the recitation," also romanised Qurʼanor Koran) is the central religious text of Islam, which Muslims believe to be a revelation from God (Arabic: الله‎, Allah).^[1] It is widely regarded as the finest piece of literature in the Arabic language.^[2][3][4][5] Muslims consider the Quran to be the only book that has been protected by God from distortion or corruption.^{[6] "}


Going to set a few rules for this thread in hopes of keeping it on track.

(1)This is not a vs christianity thread. I understand that these two religions cross paths and that christianity will most likely be referenced in this discussion. Lets limit those comparisons to likeness in text and not real world events or past and present politics. We have discussed christianity in great lengths on this forum and threads for such discussions remain in tact if you want to participate. Said simply, try not to change the subject or turn this into a comparison of any other religion.

(2) Try to limit posts to a single scripture or group of like scriptures a day. Dont post a list of 50 scriptures at one time. If you have something to say on the subject and want to issue the entirety of your thoughts in a single post, that is fine. I only ask that you limit your referencing to scriptures so that each scripture can receive attention and be investigated thoroughly.

(3) This may come as a surprise to you all, i'm game for a "fight" but I'd like this thread not to become that. Facts are facts and some of them may become unkind, but make an effort to keep the conversation civil and on topic.

(4) Every scripture posted must reference the actual location of it in the quran. Everything we post will be an english translation, obviously, but for the sake of being able to cross reference any scripture posted, make sure to label it's location.


Also attached to this thread is a private poll.

[Sinfix_15]

Surah 8:12

I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

actual text -

Other translation from Sahih international

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."




You will find many references to decapitation or beheading in the Quran. I'm sure anyone who follows the news is familiar with the common practice of decapitation by Islamic extremist. Is this a misunderstanding? or just the literal interpretation of Islam?

[David88vert]

Surah 8:12

I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

actual text -

Other translation from Sahih international

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."




You will find many references to decapitation or beheading in the Quran. I'm sure anyone who follows the news is familiar with the common practice of decapitation by Islamic extremist. Is this a misunderstanding? or just the literal interpretation of Islam?

Doesn't "Surah Al-Anfal" concern the spoils of war? Back when it was written, wasn't it normal to kill your enemies if you captured them, and they were not believers? Am I missing something - I'm not seeing what is controversial when you take it in context of the whole Surah.

[Sinfix_15]

Doesn't "Surah Al-Anfal" concern the spoils of war? Back when it was written, wasn't it normal to kill your enemies if you captured them, and they were not believers? Am I missing something - I'm not seeing what is controversial when you take it in context of the whole Surah.

That is correct. How would you define the perimeters of war through the eyes of a religion? how does a religion declare war? Who is the army in this setting and what justifies any war between them?

Is the war against non-believers? That is how i interpret it and i would assume it is the same way that islamic extremist do as well. The decapitations have not been limited to soldiers of war, just "non-believers". Even in a battle setting, does it not seem odd to endorse beheading and disfigurement? What message does this send?

[David88vert]

That is correct. How would you define the perimeters of war through the eyes of a religion? how does a religion declare war? Who is the army in this setting and what justifies any war between them?

Is the war against non-believers? That is how i interpret it and i would assume it is the same way that islamic extremist do as well. The decapitations have not been limited to soldiers of war, just "non-believers". Even in a battle setting, does it not seem odd to endorse beheading and disfigurement? What message does this send?

If you take it in the context in which it was written, the world was very different and much "smaller". At that point in time, there was little distinction between what constituted a citizen or a soldier. It was considered "normal" for a group conquering another to kill/execute the male citizens back in those times, in that part of the world - and that was not limited to the Muslim/Jewish conflicts. All of Europe, and most of Asia also had these violent tendencies in their cultures as well. The decapitations/executions and severing of limbs was not unusual at that point in history.

When you say that religion is declaring war, it shows that you do not understand the history of the book or the region of which you discuss.
There were two groups - those that followed Mohammed, and believed in his words, and those that did not. Those that did not were "non-believers" obviously, and did not try to live peacefully with Mohammed's followers, so of course, they were the enemy. The actual writings were not made until around 150 years after the death of Mohammed, from what I have read. Up until that time, they were passed down orally from generation to generation.

[Sinfix_15]

If you take it in the context in which it was written, the world was very different and much "smaller". At that point in time, there was little distinction between what constituted a citizen or a soldier. It was considered "normal" for a group conquering another to kill/execute the male citizens back in those times, in that part of the world - and that was not limited to the Muslim/Jewish conflicts. All of Europe, and most of Asia also had these violent tendencies in their cultures as well. The decapitations/executions and severing of limbs was not unusual at that point in history.

When you say that religion is declaring war, it shows that you do not understand the history of the book or the region of which you discuss.
There were two groups - those that followed Mohammed, and believed in his words, and those that did not. Those that did not were "non-believers" obviously, and did not try to live peacefully with Mohammed's followers, so of course, they were the enemy. The actual writings were not made until around 150 years after the death of Mohammed, from what I have read. Up until that time, they were passed down orally from generation to generation.

Saying it was normal for the time doesnt make it right and isnt a suitable defense. Comparing it to the crimes of other religions is not a defense either. I agree that this type of behavior is far too common in the entire religious spectrum, but for the sake of this particular debate, i am asking for answers in defense of Islam specifically.

Does beheading still happen today? Does disfigurement still happen today?

If a US soldier beheaded and disfigured an enemy combatant, what would happen to them?

[.blank cd]

There is absolutely zero point of this thread

[Sinfix_15]

There is absolutely zero point of this thread

Then run along. You seemed rather engaged when christianity was the topic. Try not to make your biases so obvious.

[Elbow]

There is absolutely zero point of this thread

Although I know there will be loads of arguing in the way some things are interpreted, I like this thread idea and think it can be beneficial to everyone.

[.blank cd]

Then run along. You seemed rather engaged when christianity was the topic. Try not to make your biases so obvious.

Bigotry was the topic. And it still is. This thread reeks of it. Surprised it hasn't been locked or deleted.

[Sinfix_15]

Bigotry was the topic. And it still is. This thread reeks of it. Surprised it hasn't been locked or deleted.

are you high or something today? you're acting unusually stupid.

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Although I know there will be loads of arguing in the way some things are interpreted, I like this thread idea and think it can be beneficial to everyone.

But he's not using it to inform. He's using it to smear. He's not exposing anything new to anyone. He just wants to justify being a racist and a bigot.

[-EnVus-]

I don't see a choice for I am christian and open minded....

[.blank cd]

I don't see a choice for I am christian and open minded....

Welcome to how to rationalize bigotry 101.

[-EnVus-]

Welcome to how to rationalize bigotry 101.

I would like to know how sinfix has first hand knowledge or experience with Islam to wanna discuss it outside his internet and google search.

[Sinfix_15]

I would like to know how sinfix has first hand knowledge or experience with Islam to wanna discuss it outside his internet and google search.

Same as anyone else. Same as you and your religious beliefs. Everything is second hand information, unless i missed the part where you were sitting at the last supper with jesus? You base your beliefs on a book that has been translated into a language you understand, you sit in a church and have someone preach to you. What first hand knowledge do you have?

[-EnVus-]

Same as anyone else. Same as you and your religious beliefs. Everything is second hand information, unless i missed the part where you were sitting at the last supper with jesus? You base your beliefs on a book that has been translated into a language you understand, you sit in a church and have someone preach to you. What first hand knowledge do you have?

I live by the good book I read and worship the god I know. You don't read and worship Islam you may read it in parts and those are the ones you think depict them all as butchers or extremist. Typical radical racist move to just judge a book by its cover to think all Islam is bad or wrong. Remove that white hood of hate and come from the hidden be more open to others and live life how it was intended.

[Sinfix_15]

I live by the good book I read and worship the god I know. You don't read and worship Islam you may read it in parts and those are the ones you think depict them all as butchers or extremist. Typical radical racist move to just judge a book by its cover to think all Islam is bad or wrong. Remove that white hood of hate and come from the hidden be more open to others and live life how it was intended.

I dont worship any god, because no god exists. My interest in religions is an interest in how it has managed to control men since the beginning of time as we know it. Religion is a curiosity to me. Everything you know about the god you chose to worship was delivered to you 2nd hand. Whether it be your translation of the bible or what your preacher tells you, it isnt all that different from my google searching or reading.

What i find interesting about this topic is how many people have turned away from a subjective argument and are just directly making personal attacks. And you're doing it to stop hate and show me how live should be lived. Oh the unbridled hypocrisy of the religious.

[Sinfix_15]

Welcome to how to rationalize bigotry 101.

You're being a serious douche lately, you're always an arrogant prick, but this level of douchebaggery is a new development. You're like a kid in a candy store on "make fun of christianity day", but here you are bombarding a thread that is trying to have a subjective debate about islam. You're probably the biggest hypocrite ive ever seen in my entire life.

[.blank cd]

Why are 3 people questioning Sinfix's commitment to partiality? This thread is supposedly free of racism and bigotry and logical fallacies.......right?

[Sinfix_15]

Why are 3 people questioning Sinfix's commitment to partiality? This thread is supposedly free of racism and bigotry and logical fallacies.......right?

Why are you still here? You hang on my every word like you're a sad puppy dog and i have a pocket full of beggin strips. If you dont like what i have to say, then remove yourself from hanging off my nuts. This topic obviously does not suit your fancy. Run along.

[D3UC3S]

There is no Jesus and god.....we all started as micro organisms and have evolved and adapted to life upon this rock floating through the cosmos. Our biological energy will be the only thing to move on. Organized religion was created to keep the masses in check so that the ones deemed "leaders" could rule and do as they please.


Thread is pointless.

[Sinfix_15]

There is no Jesus and god.....we all started as micro organisms and have evolved and adapted to life upon this rock floating through the cosmos. Our biological energy will be the only thing to move on. Organized religion was created to keep the masses in check so that the ones deemed "leaders" could rule and do as they please.


Thread is pointless.

I agree, but we can still investigate this mystery of humanity being controlled by religions.

[Sinfix_15]

Chapter 2 verse 22,23,24

22 [He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him].
23 And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.
24 But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

These verses are translated to english by sahih international. I think it's fair to say that these are not exaggerated or altered in any way, they are honest translations worthy of discussion. I'm going to continue using the sahih international translations moving forward.



One trend you will find in the Quran is that a large portion of the book, estimated probably at least half of it is directed at how to deal with nonbelievers. The Quran really drives home the point that they share disdain for nonbelievers. Lets dig into this next scripture...

[.blank cd]

Why are you still here? You hang on my every word like you're a sad puppy dog and i have a pocket full of beggin strips. If you dont like what i have to say, then remove yourself from hanging off my nuts. This topic obviously does not suit your fancy. Run along.

No one's hanging from your nuts. You're not that special. Get over yourself.

[Sinfix_15]

No one's hanging from your nuts. You're not that special. Get over yourself.

I feel pretty special. You apparently have no control over the level of attention you give me and i clearly have the ability to keep your feathers ruffled. Perhaps you have met your match. My advice to you would be to exit stage left.

[D3UC3S]

You two should just have sex and get it over with.

[.blank cd]

You two should just have sex and get it over with.

No, Echo.

[D3UC3S]

Echo is married, he won't have sex with you.

Hehehe. You know I love you both. You make me feel better about my marriage. We don't fight near as much as you two.

[Sinfix_15]

Echo is married, he won't have sex with you.

Hehehe. You know I love you both. You make me feel better about my marriage. We don't fight near as much as you two.

Blank and i would be good friends IRL. Opposites attract. Even though blank imagines me as a natural light drinking redneck sitting on the tail gate of my pickup truck with all my white friends talking about how much we hate Obama..... actually, nearly all of my friends are just like blank. I only have one friend who is the typical "redneck". Most of my friends are opinionated liberal jackasses just like blank and we still get along like peas and carrots.

Blank loves to argue, he just hates to lose arguments.

[Sinfix_15]

That's all for tonight. Moving forward, if you're going to inject your own opinion into this conversation and pawn it off as fact, like my friend David is, please provide a scripture that supports your thoughts. If you cant defend the scripture with scripture, then maybe i am perfectly right and justified in questioning this religious text.

[David88vert]

That's all for tonight. Moving forward, if you're going to inject your own opinion into this conversation and pawn it off as fact, like my friend David is, please provide a scripture that supports your thoughts. If you cant defend the scripture with scripture, then maybe i am perfectly right and justified in questioning this religious text.

You should always question any book, especially religious books. No one is telling you not to question the Islamic scriptures, just to take them in context.

There is no need to bring in other scriptures "to contradict" the verses that you listed. Your understanding of them is what is the issue, not the scripture itself. You seem unable to wrap your head around that point.

The scripture that you brought up was no different than the story of the Hebrews taking the city of Ai in the Bible. It's really that simple - and not really controversial. It was written about a battle in which a few Muslims defeated a much larger force, and killed all of the non-believer leaders. Read all 75 verses of Surah Al-Anfal - not just one. Read up on the Battle of Badr, which the surah was written about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr - prior to this battle, the Muslims had no established moral principals. You blast them on their morals, and you blast this surah, but that is exactly what it was written to help start to establish.

The surah is really about:
- The fact that the victory was due to the help of Allah rather than their own efforts and bravery was stressed so that Muslims should learn to rely on Allah and obey.
- The moral lesson of the conflict between the truth and falsehood was explained.
- The mushrikin, the hypocrites, the Jews, and the prisoners of war are addressed advising them to learn a lesson.
- Instructions to the spoils of war. Muslims were told not to regard these as their right but as a bounty from Allah. Accept with thanks the share that is granted to them out of it and accede to the share which Allah sets aside for his cause, and for the help of the needy.
- Normal instructions concerning the laws of peace and war, needed at the stage which the Islamic movement had entered. It enjoined that the Muslims should refrain from ignorance whether they are in peace or in war and establish moral superiority in the world.
- The differences of status of Muslims living within the limits of Dar-ul-Islam, from that of the Muslims living beyond its limits.

[.blank cd]

..then this thread can be locked/deleted/abandoned now.

Best opinion in this thread

[-EnVus-]

Blank tell me more about how Sinfix is wrong

[.blank cd]

Blank tell me more about how Sinfix is wrong

Logical fallacy after logical fallacy after straw man after straw man.

[.blank cd]

You might want to consider choosing scriptures that are more discussion worthy, if you original post was intended by you to be genuine.

But that's not the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to justify being a bigot. He drew a false conclusion with hasty generalizations and is attempting to support it. Why do you think he's picked the worst part of the scripture. He's not gonna give you any scripture that's blue skies and roses.

[Sinfix_15]

But that's not the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to justify being a bigot. He drew a false conclusion with hasty generalizations and is attempting to support it. Why do you think he's picked the worst part of the scripture. He's not gonna give you any scripture that's blue skies and roses.

Why are you still here? You have no reservations about mocking christians, but you're acting like a crying vagina in this thread. Are your parents muslim? your girlfriend muslim? what is the cause for you being such a douche?

You dont have to hang on to my every word. You can avoid this conversation if you're too offended.

[Sinfix_15]

4:34



Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

[David88vert]

4:34



Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

So, you copy in a scripture, but nothing more? Make your case...

[Sinfix_15]

So, you copy in a scripture, but nothing more? Make your case...

Yeah, figured i would give someone else a chance to speak first..... trying to sway the personal attacks. I'm actually interested in discussing the scripture itself rather than have someone attack me every post.