I had a thought bout the Bible

**JDM onlyy** · 02-23-2010, 02:38 AM

Ok, so the Bible is supposed to be the book of "God" right?

But, who wrote the book? People, just like you and me.

You can argue and say "prophets" were told what to write in the Bible for others to read. How do we know they weren't just crazy, delusional schizophrenics and heard voices in their heads and thought it was "God" speaking to them?

And to those who say you hear "God" speaking to you, what does he say?
How do you know its "God" and not you being a schizo?
Why wouldn't "God" just write what he wanted to tell us in stone and let it persevere through the ages for all of mankind to see instead of letting just a few people tell us what he wants?

Just a few questions that came to thought.

Discuss.

**ISAtlanta300** · 02-23-2010, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by JDM onlyy

Ok, so the Bible is supposed to be the book of "God" right?

But, who wrote the book? People, just like you and me.

You can argue and say "prophets" were told what to write in the Bible for others to read. How do we know they weren't just crazy, delusional schizophrenics and heard voices in their heads and thought it was "God" speaking to them?

And to those who say you hear "God" speaking to you, what does he say?
How do you know its "God" and not you being a schizo?
Why wouldn't "God" just write what he wanted to tell us in stone and let it persevere through the ages for all of mankind to see instead of letting just a few people tell us what he wants?

Just a few questions that came to thought.

Discuss.

1. I understand where you are coming from, but please understand that the Bible is not A book, but a collection of books, i.e. the gospels were written by the apostles. Other parts were written by the Hebrews, Kings, Moses, etc. etc etc.....So it should have been quite a few 'psycho' people hearing voices for quite some time.... years even....

2. According to the scriptures, God DID write his 10 commandments in stone tablets from mount Sinai. They should still exist somewhere in the ark of the covenant, but we won't know for sure until that artifact is found.

**geoff** · 02-23-2010, 08:13 PM

+1

**JDM onlyy** · 02-23-2010, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by ISAtlanta300

1. I understand where you are coming from, but please understand that the Bible is not A book, but a collection of books, i.e. the gospels were written by the apostles. Other parts were written by the Hebrews, Kings, Moses, etc. etc etc.....So it should have been quite a few 'psycho' people hearing voices for quite some time.... years even....

2. According to the scriptures, God DID write his 10 commandments in stone tablets from mount Sinai. They should still exist somewhere in the ark of the covenant, but we won't know for sure until that artifact is found.

How do we know that a man didn't write that in stone?

Also, the I'm not saying they're psycho. Its just, all these people wrote this stuff...I mean why is it that we must listen to what they wrote? Couldn't I have wrote something completely opposite of what they wrote back then and if people accepted it, then that would've became the book of God, no?

I'm just saying, a MAN wrote these books, or MEN I should say. Yeah, they can say God told them to, but once again I could also say God told me to write something else. Before right became right and wrong became wrong people were doing things as they please and there was no rule, now if I had wrote it before this time that killing was what God wanted, then would we have obeyed that?

**StreetHazard** · 02-24-2010, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by JDM onlyy

How do we know that a man didn't write that in stone?

Also, the I'm not saying they're psycho. Its just, all these people wrote this stuff...I mean why is it that we must listen to what they wrote? Couldn't I have wrote something completely opposite of what they wrote back then and if people accepted it, then that would've became the book of God, no?

I'm just saying, a MAN wrote these books, or MEN I should say. Yeah, they can say God told them to, but once again I could also say God told me to write something else. Before right became right and wrong became wrong people were doing things as they please and there was no rule, now if I had wrote it before this time that killing was what God wanted, then would we have obeyed that?

You are stating what many others have stated for many years before ANY of us.

One of the earliest documented outspoken Atheist was actually a French parish priest by the name of Jean Meslier. On his death in 1729 he was found to have left what he called his "testament" to his parishioners, a book-length essay denouncing all religion as false and praising atheist morality. He said religion was "but a castle in the air", and theology was "but ignorance of natural causes reduced to a system." "Religions, to him, were fabrications fostered by ruling elites; although the earliest Christians had been exemplary in sharing their goods, Christianity had long since degenerated into encouraging the acceptance of suffering and submission to tyranny as practised by the kings of France. Injustice was explained away as being the will of an all-wise Being.

None of the arguments used by Meslier against the existence of God were original, in fact, he derived them from books written by orthodox theologians in the debate between the Jesuits, Cartesians, and Jansenists and their inability to agree on a proof for God's existence was taken by Meslier as a good reason not to presume that there was compelling grounds for belief in God.

In his most famous quote, Meslier refers to a man who:

"...wished that all the great men in the world and all the nobility could be hanged, and strangled with the guts of the priests."

Meslier admits that the statement may seem crude and shocking, but comments that this is what the priests and nobility deserve, not for reasons of revenge or hatred, but for love of justice and truth.

The famous philosopher and writer Voltaire often mentioned Meslier referring to him as "a good priest" in his correspondence, in which he tells his daughter to "read and read again" Meslier's only work, and says that "every honest man should have Meslier's Testament in his pocket."

But the answer to your original inquiry lies within your ability to believe in something you cannot prove...hence the word "faith". But you are not alone in your heresy

**S2KJD** · 02-24-2010, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by StreetHazard

hence the word "faith".

agreed

**StreetHazard** · 02-24-2010, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by StreetHazard

hence the word "faith".

Originally Posted by S2KJD

agreed

But that is not to say "faith" in a religious connotation is a positive virtue.

Your mental state, reasoning and intelligence would be better served studying the works of philosophers like Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche, Ayn Rand, Voltaire and Aristotle than anything contained within the Holy Bible. Which the entire work of the Bible does not read like something eloquently put down to paper, but a work that reads as something so much as (SHOUTED) from a screaming madman tied upside down from the tallest bell tower while bleeding from many wounds of flagellation into delirium, and scrawled the contents of it onto the city walls with his own shit and blood. And what we see reprinted was the result.

**S2KJD** · 02-24-2010, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by StreetHazard

studying the works

you choose to to learn and understand that way as im perfectly comfortable and secure with my way of attending church and being taught through the Bible from our pastor.

glad we have something in common: studying. just in different forms

**ISAtlanta300** · 02-24-2010, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by JDM onlyy

How do we know that a man didn't write that in stone?

Also, the I'm not saying they're psycho. Its just, all these people wrote this stuff...I mean why is it that we must listen to what they wrote? Couldn't I have wrote something completely opposite of what they wrote back then and if people accepted it, then that would've became the book of God, no?

I'm just saying, a MAN wrote these books, or MEN I should say. Yeah, they can say God told them to, but once again I could also say God told me to write something else. Before right became right and wrong became wrong people were doing things as they please and there was no rule, now if I had wrote it before this time that killing was what God wanted, then would we have obeyed that?

Dude, this has been discussed ad nauseum. How do we know a man didn't? how do we know a man did? How do we know that we weren't all flaming homosexuals that became extinct at one point only to resurface again with the dinosaurs? NO ONE KNOWS.

The only thing we know is that 1. These books WERE written 2. Mostly we know and we have an idea BY WHOM.

Whether it was God or their own minds who put out the story and the bible we will NEVER know, because they are not around for us to evaluate and question.

But if you take everything into consideration, either there was a problem with the country's air quality and these people were inhaling gasses, or they were truly inspired by something or someone.

**Red_EJ1** · 02-24-2010, 03:21 PM

its called faith, the thoughts your having are (and im sure you will call me crazy) from the devil he wants you to have those thoughts to make YOU ? your faith,and as for your do we hear god question ... he does not talk to us in word.. when the world betrayed Jesus.. and i say the world because we are one in gods eyes and it does not matter if some were with Jesus and some were not we are one, now as far as god talking to us theres this thing that happens to everyone in there lives its called having your eyes opened from GOD, now some realize this is a message from god and take it in and some do not but for the ones who do you will start to look at things in a whole new light small things you will see as signs from GOD, but theres also a flip side to that... for the Jews god will not let them open theres eyes to Jesus at least not yet the Jews are who killed Jesus for they all said theres is no way a human could be from gods decent and there for taking him as a false profit, so this is why god will not let them believe in Jesus yet but the Jews are still gods people and he will not turn from them, but he does still make them obied by the ten commandments, and for us well we live by the blood the blood of Jesus there for we are forgiven for all sins, now as far you saying well who wrote the bible and were they crazy no they just had there eyes opened and took it in and listened to god, as far people who do not believe in god just remember god always believes in you, alot of people say well i dont believe in god but i still have a good life well thats because he still believes in you, just look around you,, to say you dont believe in god is to say you dont live, for example if you kill someone witch in most country's is the worst crime well why is that... well because its the worst sin, god is in are laws minds and hearts you fill love because thats what god wanted you to fill so the next time your with you girl of family just think to yourself about what love is and why you fill it. and just remember its not he is... its GOD is, i could talk about this all day i love my life and i love GOD and i love the things god has givin me

**StreetHazard** · 02-24-2010, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Red_EJ1

its called faith, the thoughts your having are (and im sure you will call me crazy) from the devil he wants you to have those thoughts to make YOU ? your faith,and as for your do we hear god question ... he does not talk to us in word.. when the world betrayed Jesus.. and i say the world because we are one in gods eyes and it does not matter if some were with Jesus and some were not we are one, now as far as god talking to us theres this thing that happens to everyone in there lives its called having your eyes opened from GOD, now some realize this is a message from god and take it in and some do not but for the ones who do you will start to look at things in a whole new light small things you will see as signs from GOD, but theres also a flip side to that... for the Jews god will not let them open theres eyes to Jesus at least not yet the Jews are who killed Jesus for they all said theres is no way a human could be from gods decent and there for taking him as a false profit, so this is why god will not let them believe in Jesus yet but the Jews are still gods people and he will not turn from them, but he does still make them obied by the ten commandments, and for us well we live by the blood the blood of Jesus there for we are forgiven for all sins, now as far you saying well who wrote the bible and were they crazy no they just had there eyes opened and took it in and listened to god, as far people who do not believe in god just remember god always believes in you, alot of people say well i dont believe in god but i still have a good life well thats because he still believes in you, just look around you,, to say you dont believe in god is to say you dont live, for example if you kill someone witch in most country's is the worst crime well why is that... well because its the worst sin, god is in are laws minds and hearts you fill love because thats what god wanted you to fill so the next time your with you girl of family just think to yourself about what love is and why you fill it. and just remember its not he is... its GOD is, i could talk about this all day i love my life and i love GOD and i love the things god has givin me

I am not sure where to begin with this...This has so many holes in it I could drive a truck through them. Instead I will nod my head and let you continue on your laughable, blissful christian life.

**geoff** · 02-24-2010, 06:55 PM

how do you know the words of aristotle or any philosopher from way back when are actually their own and not copied by someone else? you dont, you simply believe thats what it is. if you actually take the time and read the bible you will see its not a book or like anything ever written before, the way it flows, the thought pattern, the delicacy of it, ect...all way too advanced for anyone thousands of years ago to come up with. these were pretty primitive people and there is no way any of them had the intelligence to come up with something like this. i would also like to throw this out, for those with true unwavering faith, the Word of God is something we are willing to die for, many have and many more will. has anyone ever died for aristotles writings, or karl marx, or voiltare?

redej1- nice to see someone else with a passion for God, but you have a few things twisted ( biblically that is ) for one God does speek to people through His Word ( i have experienced this) for the next, it was the Holy Spirit that moved on the men that wrote the bible and opened these peoples eyes, its the Holy Spirit that first calls men to repentance and draws them to the Lord. next, the jews are not the only ones that are God's people, there is no more distinction between gentile and jew, and there are jews who convert to the belief in the Lord. the jews do have a promise tho and thats why God has not turned from them. and lastly, murder is not the worst sin, in fact the bible says that all sin is equal in God's eyes and that the ONLY unforgivable sin is blaspheming of the Holy Ghost.

**StreetHazard** · 02-24-2010, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by geoff

how do you know the words of aristotle or any philosopher from way back when are actually their own and not copied by someone else? you dont, you simply believe thats what it is. if you actually take the time and read the bible you will see its not a book or like anything ever written before, the way it flows, the thought pattern, the delicacy of it, ect...all way too advanced for anyone thousands of years ago to come up with. these were pretty primitive people and there is no way any of them had the intelligence to come up with something like this. i would also like to throw this out, for those with true unwavering faith, the Word of God is something we are willing to die for, many have and many more will. has anyone ever died for aristotles writings, or karl marx, or voiltare?

I am going to stop you right there, and ask if you are fucking serious? Do you think at all before you type? I would hate to imagine what you are like in person.

I could start by...well BECAUSE THEIR WORKS WERE PUBLISHED IN THEIR NAMES! it would be like saying Einsteins papers were not really his, but interpreted by someone else! Geoff you really are clueless when comes to ANYTHING outside of scripture, and even that you are not very good at.

And assuming people were "to primitive" to achieve things that by all appearances seem to fall outside of their capabilities is ignorance. Stone Henge, Angkor Wat in Cambodia and the Pyramids at Giza come to mind right off of my head, and you are grossly overestimating the ideas put forth in the bible...they are not groundbreaking at all, as these same myths correspond with others found in Egyptian sun worship and the "Son/Sun" of Horus, and in greek mythology and also in legends found from ancient Sumeria.

^ I was thinking about making a thread about this soon, but probably will not be worth the time.

And reasons why you would die for your "faith" is simply beyond my reasoning, personally I think it has more "political" motivations at the heads of the organization that helps structure and shape it's beliefs than any real religious reasons (IE: the Vatican of old, or Hamas in modern times). But I am glad the answer is NO to that question...As far as I know, no one has waged a war in Aristotle's name, but they have used their works to justify their actions in war like in the case of Karl Marx and the rise of communism which Lenin, then Stalin famously adopted his ideas which lead to the communist revolution and ushered in the Soviet Union. Germany rallied against these ideas and "elected" Hitler to stave off the communist threat.

So yes, in a way people have died over their ideas like religion. Those authors objectively analyze human nature, and the nature of the human spirit concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. I am honestly stunned that I had to explain that to you, or anyone...Your ignorance will never cease to amaze me, but ignorance and faith are as pleased with each others company like flies and shit. Explaining anything to you feels like a waste of time and makes me ashamed that somehow people like you escaped a basic education, or you have chosen to ignore it which saddens me.

**5speed** · 02-24-2010, 08:24 PM

Humanity= Politics in every which way and form

I myself have come to a conclusion on my beliefs. I believe in a God. I do NOT believe I should worship it or provide works in Gods name. It is human nature to want to believe in something to give reasoning for anything and everything, which is where Religion come to play. If there was evidence that everyone on Earth accepted that shows proof to a God or Gods then I would say it/they abandoned us.

I do go to a non denominational church but only because I just like listening to other peoples beliefs no matter what they are. The pastor is a great guy but I swear some things that come out of his mouth are misconstrued. For example the other day he said that the reason we go through sufferings no matter how bad is to show that we are men of God whether evil or holy, and we can survive anything. What about those who do not survive? What about those who survive and are broken mentally and spiritually (if you believe in having a spirit)? It just sounds like a load of bull shit that is given to justify cruelties.

People who accept these beliefs seem to ignore a lot of things just so they can have their mind at rest and have one less thing to worry about.

**geoff** · 02-24-2010, 09:45 PM

streethazard- thanx for the history lesson but your not telling me something i dont know. my point was that we can not interogate these people. we take the accepted belief that it was there work. and since when has publishing something in your name actually mean you came up with it? =plagiarism. not good at scripture huh?

if there is one thing i can say for myself is that i have studied in depth the scriptures and study to show myself approved. try again buddy. as far as the bible not being anything special, hmmmm havent seen a similar work that stands up to it yet. those monuments of history were created using lots of back work, trial and error, loss of life, and some injinuity.

5speed- how ya doin bro?suprised to hear you say you believe God abandoned us....

**Starrfire** · 02-24-2010, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by geoff

streethazard- thanx for the history lesson but your not telling me something i dont know. my point was that we can not interogate these people. we take the accepted belief that it was there work. and since when has publishing something in your name actually mean you came up with it? =plagiarism. not good at scripture huh?

if there is one thing i can say for myself is that i have studied in depth the scriptures and study to show myself approved. try again buddy. as far as the bible not being anything special, hmmmm havent seen a similar work that stands up to it yet. those monuments of history were created using lots of back work, trial and error, loss of life, and some injinuity.

5speed- how ya doin bro?suprised to hear you say you believe God abandoned us....

So you don't believe Voltaire, Cervantes,Galileo,Socrates. Do you believe in Ghengis Khan? How about Alexander The Great? You would deny reality and all similar ideas. Their ideals survived mainly because they were the ones who WROTE history whether through their works of writing or because the utterly conquered other groups of people so that their ideas would be passed on. Do you think Carthage existed?

You would deny truth to say it is exactly as true as your bible. Well go ahead and believe its truth just like when the world supposedly flooded over every mountain peak and Noah supposedly built a boat to carry animals of every species on it(even the ones we have just recently discovered).

**JDM onlyy** · 02-25-2010, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by geoff

as far as the bible not being anything special, hmmmm havent seen a similar work that stands up to it yet.

Hmm, the Quran comes to mind...

I'm not Muslim or anything but to me it seems the Quran would be a better book to abide by if you wanted to really listen to the original "Prophet" of that religion. Did you know that the Quran has not once been edited or changed because that it is a sin in their religion?

The Bible has been changed multiple times. Just as many people on this very thread have said, people have added what they wanted to it. King James decided to revise the whole thing and reprint it in how he felt it should be. With that being said, I feel like its just whomever had power at the time, had the power to change the Bible. So the Bible could've gone through a massive change, and no one will truly know if those are the words of God coming from the actual "Prophet".

Don't get me wrong, I believe in a higher being, but for some reason, I have a feeling everyone's higher being whether it be God, Allah, or Buddha is the same. I just think he came to everyone in a different form so the people would accept him. They all teach generally the same principles...has anyone else ever thought bout this as well?

**geoff** · 02-25-2010, 06:42 AM

starfire- i do believe in all those people you listed. i just also believe the bible.

jdmonlyy- um the bible has not been " changed " it has been translated into different languages. the bible we have today is the same one from around 2000 years ago that they taught with. please before you say things do the research. you can look up the dead sea scrolls for physical proof. there is a difference brother between allah, buddha, zues, Jesus, ect... different principles and goals and so on.

**StreetHazard** · 02-25-2010, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by geoff

starfire- i do believe in all those people you listed. i just also believe the bible.

jdmonlyy- um the bible has not been " changed " it has been translated into different languages. the bible we have today is the same one from around 2000 years ago that they taught with. please before you say things do the research. you can look up the dead sea scrolls for physical proof. there is a difference brother between allah, buddha, zues, Jesus, ect... different principles and goals and so on.

While there are a number of versions to the Bible. There are 8 primary versions found in history:

Septuagint - 250 C.E. Written in Greek

Vulgate- 400 C.E. First version of the Bible which is canonized at the Council of Carthage in 400 C.E. Written in Latin

Luther's German Bible- 1534 C.E.

King James Version- 1611 C.E. This is the most widely used versions however it has large number of errors given that none of the writers had a decent understanding of Hebrew.

Revised Standard Version- 1952 C.E. Liberal translation into American English which used the earliest possible text

New International Version- 1960's & 70's C.E. This is a conservative, contemporary English version

Jerusalem Bible- 1966 C.E. This is the first version of the Bible to be commisioned by the Catholic Church since the 400's.

New Revised Standard Version- 1990 C.E. This is the most academic and scholarly version with the most accurately possible translations of the original text.

Amazon lists the top ten in current sales in the USA (as of 8/17/2009) to be the NAB, NRSV, NIV, KJV, Message, NASB, NLT, RSV, Amplified, and the Orthodox Study Bible.

NAB---New American Bible

NRSV---New Revised Standard Version

NIV---New International Version

KJV---King James Version

Message---"The Message"

NASB---New American Standard Bible

NLT---New Living Translation

RSV---Revised Standard Version

Amplified---Amplified Bible (Revision of the American Standard Version)

Orthodox Study Bible---Adds a new translation of the LXX to an existing translation of the NKJV in a single volume.

^^^ now we can go from here and actually see differences in translations and meanings of scripture within most of these works, that all depend on how the scholars decided to convey the scripture in translation, most offer footnotes from theologians as well that help clarify a desired message under the guise of "research" or "fact".

**geoff** · 02-25-2010, 08:05 AM

i would like to see your research or proof of the kjv not being accurate.

**StreetHazard** · 02-25-2010, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by geoff

i would like to see your research or proof of the kjv not being accurate.

Find it yourself, I'm not inclined to hold your hand across the street. And does it really matter? there are other versions far more accurate, or as accurate as it could be to the ancient writing.

in an ironic twist of fate, I almost feel like I am helping you become a more knowledgeable christian. I need to stop this and start planting seeds of descent instead.

**geoff** · 02-25-2010, 12:03 PM

i have done alot of studying. im not one to be led around with my eyes closed. as i was growing in faith i studied the bible and other theories alot. its hard to accuratedly translate an ancient language. we have newer words and such that they didnt. i believe i saw a study once that concluded that the kjv was 90% accurate to the latin, greek, hebrew versions of the dead sea scrolls. the 10% missing was the adding of verbs, adjectives,ect in the english language so the english version would make sense. by the way i dont buy into that subnote connotation provided by " men of God " at the bottom of the page. i believe in a personal relationship with Jesus and take the scripture either literally or how God shows me it

**StreetHazard** · 02-25-2010, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by geoff

i have done alot of studying. im not one to be led around with my eyes closed. as i was growing in faith i studied the bible and other theories alot. its hard to accuratedly translate an ancient language. we have newer words and such that they didnt. i believe i saw a study once that concluded that the kjv was 90% accurate to the latin, greek, hebrew versions of the dead sea scrolls. the 10% missing was the adding of verbs, adjectives,ect in the english language so the english version would make sense. by the way i dont buy into that subnote connotation provided by " men of God " at the bottom of the page. i believe in a personal relationship with Jesus and take the scripture either literally or how God shows me it

I don't give a shit, I was just letting you know there are MANY different versions of the bible, that vary in wide degrees of accuracy. And the dead sea scrolls are not considered a "Bible" they are only pages of it.

I don't care why, or how you are a christian, or how you choose to interpret the bible. By providing this list it shows the wide margin of "faith" and "belief" within Christianities own ranks, and everyone of them think their version is the proper way.

You are no exception.

**geoff** · 02-25-2010, 12:47 PM

its the Holy Ghost given to men that leads us to whats true.

**StreetHazard** · 02-25-2010, 01:24 PM

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**Starrfire** · 02-25-2010, 07:23 PM

Lulz

**StreetHazard** · 02-25-2010, 11:45 PM

This might be something some of you will find interesting. It is a "interview" or debate with the Christian evangelist Bob Larson and high ranking members of the Church of Satan, Anton LeVay's daughter Zeena LeVay and a one-eared man named Nikolas Schreck, which now currently are married.

This is just a glimpse into this philosophy, but you can witness a very visibly stumped christian. I thought Bob Larson handled himself well, and I certainly noticed him NOT attempting to use scripture as a bases for many of his arguments or points, which was very smart of him to do so because his interview would have been a complete embarrassment for him if he did, but I can see how it must have been hard for him to avoid it as it shapes his entire worldview.

Not because I am biased, (well maybe) but I certainly give the win in this little exchange to the one-eared man in the black suit, he brings up valid points that many people choose not to even consider, and he doesn't even seem to be trying to. He's not the most eloquent debater, but neither is Larson so the exchange comes across as very honest and civil but Larson still seems to be back peddling and visibly shaken.

I know their are better filmed religious debates out there, but for me...this one is a classic.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLRIb...eature=related

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g71hp...eature=related

Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXNqs10as9o

Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSGSlP2yPpE

Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxTbQ...eature=related

Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=823RtTCRWW8

Part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Sb9kVll74

Part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVX3DdJ_i-A

Part 9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhwG4uEePUk

Part 10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXGO0BR9I30 <---------------------------------This

**5speed** · 02-28-2010, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by geoff

5speed- how ya doin bro?suprised to hear you say you believe God abandoned us....

In any relgious way I believe there has been abondonment taken place. But I do not believe in any religion. Therfore I do not feel abondoned just neglected sometimes. I believe God is all that is good/evil and beautiful/ugly. I have opened up to Christianity with devotion because things I have felt. I do believe it was spiritual. The more I learned about the Bible the more it led me away from it. When it comes to religipn you can't just pick and choose what you like to believe and discard what you don't. It is all or nothing. There is no way I could ever convince myself to believe some of its teachings. I do think there are great things to be learned from it in whole though.

You know that I have been Baptized and had a very spiritual event happen recently but I am not convinced by any means to take the Bible whole heartedly. I do believe in sin and morals that have been shaped by my nurturing but also through what I have experienced. I just want to live up to those beliefs and if I truly fall short of God then God shall know I am only a man with his own convictions.

**geoff** · 03-01-2010, 11:14 AM

very well explained. if your seeking truth God will lead you in the right direction. im praying for you brother. and just know that God has never forsaken nor abandoned you, the times you feel alone and neglected is a trial we all face, just keep searching

**quickdodge®** · 03-01-2010, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by geoff

if your seeking truth God will lead you in the right direction.

You do know that you can do things for yourself, too, right? Later, QD.

**geoff** · 03-01-2010, 11:22 AM

i understand that but when you seek faith or spirituality, if thats what you believe in, then who best to go to for direction than the one your seeking after?

**5speed** · 03-01-2010, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by quickdodge®

You do know that you can do things for yourself, too, right? Later, QD.

Originally Posted by geoff

i understand that but when you seek faith or spirituality, if thats what you believe in, then who best to go to for direction than the one your seeking after?

Exactly to both. I believe nothing would ever get done if we simply relied on God and never took any action ourselves.

**Got Milk?** · 03-01-2010, 05:23 PM

lol at "Bible" that books changes every year.

**JDM onlyy** · 03-01-2010, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Got Milk?

lol at "Bible" that books changes every year.

I know its been changed many times, yet Geoff won't accept it. I'm not going to believe what any man writes in a book and calls a "Bible." If this book is so mystical, and spiritual then how come it couldn't survive the times? Man has changed it so many times, but I recall my Social Studies teacher in 7th grade telling me that the Quran has not been altered since the day it has been written. I'm not Muslim and I don't belive in Islam, but I'm just saying if you really wanted to belive some words from some old guys, why not listen to their words then?

**Jaimecbr900** · 03-01-2010, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by JDM onlyy

I know its been changed many times, yet Geoff won't accept it. I'm not going to believe what any man writes in a book and calls a "Bible." If this book is so mystical, and spiritual then how come it couldn't survive the times? Man has changed it so many times, but I recall my Social Studies teacher in 7th grade telling me that the Quran has not been altered since the day it has been written. I'm not Muslim and I don't belive in Islam, but I'm just saying if you really wanted to belive some words from some old guys, why not listen to their words then?

Although like my buddy IS300 stated this has been discussed over and over again on here, I always find myself drawn in by the blatant stupidity and ignorance that runs rampant in these discussions.

It's so ironic that most of the "non-believers" who are so quick to always put in their

in these discussions are always the still wet behind the ears 20 somethings....

. I guess they also will believe that what they think today is so uber cool will still make them look cool 20 yrs from now too, huh?

#1. I'm getting pretty tired of people who haven't a clue what they're talking about, just what they're GOV'T school teacher told them back in 2nd grade or what their older cousin whom they idolize told them while they toked on a big fat joint

, yet they call us stupid for believing something that is 1000 times older than both of them put together and then compounded to the power of 10. Right.....WE are the dumb ones....

The Bible hasn't been "changed". If by translating it to other languages is "change" to you, then you are an idiot.

#2. The Quran may not have been changed, but unless you study it, read it, and believe it in ARABIC......you TOO are "changing" it then, huh?

So I guess that means that all those Muslims going to their Mosques all over the U.S.A. are wrong too, huh? They are some how less "Muslims" to you two???? Gotcha.

#3. It's so funny that all of you go through your entire "higher" learning careers believing all those fine books, works, history, and science much like......ummmmm, let's see......oh yes......people who sit at church on any given sunday. Don't believe it?

Well here you go: A teacher stands up and "teaches" you about a subject which is based on what???? Some book he or she studied when he or she went to her school. That book was written by whom? A real flesh and blood what??? Human, person, homosapien. Right? How do YOU KNOW that the book he or she is teaching you from is right? Did you go and test it yourself? The whole thing? Really? Bullshit. You BELIEVE IT because you WANT TO believe it. Both the parts that you tested and the 99.99999% that you never have nor will. Is there PROOF of every single thing from every text book you've ever studied? Ummm, not no, but HELL NO. Matter of fact, text books are re-written on a yearly basis, especially SCIENCE text books. Why? Because ironically enough they keep proving themselves WRONG constantly. So what YOU thought you "knew" last year, is WRONG this year. So to summarize, you guys hang your hats on a belief system that is ever changing because it proves itself WRONG from year to year as the basis of your beliefs????? Gotcha

Now, dress people better, give them better manners and attitudes, and you have????? What most of us see when we go to church. People who sit down and listen to someone that studied a book that both of them believe to be true to become smarter about a certain subject. Yep, there's a huge difference there, huh? You don't see people running down to their local school and calling everyone there stupid for believing whats written in some "book". Why not? You two are doing the same thing to people who believe the "book" they feel is accurate. The Bible is how old? Your Science book is how old? Yet, YOURS is somehow MORE credit worthy? The same book that told you last year Pluto was a Planet and this year it tells you it's not????? That book is the one you believe whole heartedly? And I'm the stupid one?????? Okie dokie.

I'll tell you what. I challenge either one of you to list out EXACT EXAMPLES of how the Bible has "changed". You both seem to be so eager to use that as your punch line, so I'm going to call you out on it. Put up or shut up time ladies. You say the Bible is, according to you, changing so much that we must be dumb to believe it. I just proved to you how brilliant you are for putting all your life eggs in the text book basket, so now prove to me why I should not put all my faith on the Bible.

-Cue the Jeopardy theme song.-

Time's ticking ladies. Let's see what you got. You wanted a debate? Let's see if you really want one.

**Deke** · 03-01-2010, 10:41 PM

I generally try to avoid these kind of threads, but I just kind of wanted to play devil's advocate (pardon any pun you may draw from that) to keep this conversation intelligent.

Originally Posted by Jaimecbr900

Now, dress people better, give them better manners and attitudes, and you have????? What most of us see when we go to church. People who sit down and listen to someone that studied a book that both of them believe to be true to become smarter about a certain subject. Yep, there's a huge difference there, huh? You don't see people running down to their local school and calling everyone there stupid for believing whats written in some "book". Why not? You two are doing the same thing to people who believe the "book" they feel is accurate.

I will agree that both religious and non-religious topics alike require a certain amount of faith. However, to imply that those who study science require the same amount of faith as those that study the bible is misguided. Let's take a basic principle of both the bible (Jesus is the son of God) and a basic principle of physics (force) as an example.

A. Force

A professor tells a student that if he pushes the side of a wheel (applies force), the wheel will accelerate in the direction of the force. The student calls bullshit. The professor tells the student to read the text book. The student reads it and still calls bullshit. The professor then tells the student, you don't have to believe me, I'll show you. Force is applied, the wheel accelerates.

B. Christ is the son of God

A minister tells a church goer that Jesus Christ is the son of god. The church goer calls bullshit. The minister tells the church goer to read the bible. The church goer still calls bullshit. The minister tells the church goer he must have faith.

I realize this is an incredibly simplistic example. But the matter is, the building blocks of science are things that someone can see and prove for themselves. They don't have to have faith, it occurs right in front of their eyes. With religion even the most simplistic ideas are constructed on faith.

And please don't read into this that I think that makes religion bad/stupid. I greatly respect faith as long as it's not blind.

I'll tell you what. I challenge either one of you to list out EXACT EXAMPLES of how the Bible has "changed". You both seem to be so eager to use that as your punch line, so I'm going to call you out on it. Put up or shut up time ladies. You say the Bible is, according to you, changing so much that we must be dumb to believe it. I just proved to you how brilliant you are for putting all your life eggs in the text book basket, so now prove to me why I should not put all my faith on the Bible.

I don't have the time or desire to quote specifics, but after a quick google search, I found that the word apocrypha refers to passages of the Bible that a given publisher doubts or rejects. The fact that there is such a word certainly leads me to believe that not all Bibles are created equally. And of course the ever popular wikipedia link if you are in fact interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha

Disclaimer: I do not claim to be an expert on this topic by any means. I'm simply someone who likes to have civil, intellectual discussions. If I make people think twice about something or someone makes me think twice, I consider it a success. If anyone resorts to name calling in my direction, I will consider you an unintelligent asshat unworthy of my time or attention

**JDM onlyy** · 03-01-2010, 10:51 PM