Organized Religion

[ahabion]

my only gripe with some religions is that they don't encourage ppl to learn and grow on their own once they reach a certain maturity. some of them stifle the free-thinker rather than giving him the tools to keep growing. but this isn't the case for ALL of them though

What I'm confused about is the notion that just because we believe in a certain religion or belief that it somehow "limits" free thinking... I'm confused. Please somehow enlighten me. That's like saying because you join the military, you're no longer capable of free thinking or if you join IA, that it somehow limits your thinking.

Herd mentality or group think can be associated with almost anything, please drop it. Heck, IA is an example of herd mentality. Everyone thinks of CARS... oh noes! Somehow that stifles free thinking...?

[trini_gsr]

What I'm confused about is the notion that just because we believe in a certain religion or belief that it somehow "limits" free thinking... I'm confused. Please somehow enlighten me. That's like saying because you join the military, you're no longer capable of free thinking or if you join IA, that it somehow limits your thinking.

Herd mentality or group think can be associated with almost anything, please drop it. Heck, IA is an example of herd mentality. Everyone thinks of CARS... oh noes! Somehow that stifles free thinking...?

note that i said SOME religions. not all but SOME. the very nature of how religions are set up tend to create a dependency between the leader of the religion and his followers. basically you go to church every week to receive instruction from the same leadership about spirituality. i've been to churches where the pastor spoke for over an hr without even opening his Bible or mentioning scripture to verify or validate what he was saying. that's ridiculous. this is a situation that can be very easily abused, and we see it happen all the time.

and you're right...herd mentality can be associated with almost any organization with centralized leadership. hell, look at how many ppl on IA or honda-tech are quick to call any teg or civic that doesn't have a clean OEM look or has wheels bigger than 16s RICE. lol. ppl get lazy and if the leadership doesn't encourage the members to think for themselves...they'd rather kick back and let the leader tell them what to do. we have the same problem with government but that's a different discussion lol.

the DIFFERENCE with religion though is that the stakes are much higher. it's not fads or trends...it's ppls lives we're dealing with.

[ahabion]

note that i said SOME religions. not all but SOME. the very nature of how religions are set up tend to create a dependency between the leader of the religion and his followers. basically you go to church every week to receive instruction from the same leadership about spirituality. i've been to churches where the pastor spoke for over an hr without even opening his Bible or mentioning scripture to verify or validate what he was saying. that's ridiculous. this is a situation that can be very easily abused, and we see it happen all the time.

and you're right...herd mentality can be associated with almost any organization with centralized leadership. hell, look at how many ppl on IA or honda-tech are quick to call any teg or civic that doesn't have a clean OEM look or has wheels bigger than 16s RICE. lol. ppl get lazy and if the leadership doesn't encourage the members to think for themselves...they'd rather kick back and let the leader tell them what to do. we have the same problem with government but that's a different discussion lol.

It doesn't have to be centralized leadership at all. Let me illustrate. If you hang out with rich people and do what rich people do, it is likely that you'll become rich. If you hang out with poor people and do what poor people do, it is likely you'll be poor. If you hang out with friends who enjoys basketball and car enthusiasm, it is likely that you'll enjoy basketball and car enthusiasm. There are no clear leaders (but yourself) but you adopt the mentality, thinking, trends and behaviors as your peers. That is the very definition of herd mentality.

As for the pastor, it could have been that he already knew the passage in which he was talking about (most pastors can cite multiple passages right off their heads). It also could have been that the passage was already "known" among the congregation (though you may have missed the "topic" they were covering from several weeks prior)... lots of variables involved BUT I do understand and see your point.

the DIFFERENCE with religion though is that the stakes are much higher. it's not fads or trends...it's ppls lives we're dealing with.

If you think about, it is no different from anything else. Life, at its core, is what we know and do everyday. You do car enthusiasm because it's what fulfills your life, you play sports because that's what fulfills your life, you get married because that's what fulfills your life, you have children, you get a house, you get old and grey.... that's life. Your religion, your belief (in whatever it is) is as much a part of life as anything else you involve yourself in.

So no, the stakes are the same. Life IS on the line, no matter how you decide to live it.

[trini_gsr]

It doesn't have to be centralized leadership at all. Let me illustrate. If you hang out with rich people and do what rich people do, it is likely that you'll become rich. If you hang out with poor people and do what poor people do, it is likely you'll be poor. If you hang out with friends who enjoys basketball and car enthusiasm, it is likely that you'll enjoy basketball and car enthusiasm. There are no clear leaders (but yourself) but you adopt the mentality, thinking, trends and behaviors as your peers. That is the very definition of herd mentality.

this is a really good point. only thing i'd say here is that when the group gets big enough you tend to have the "alpha male" figures develop a form of loose leadership...which eventually centralizes with increased organization. and you're going to have those folks in the group that idolize the ppl in the group that seem to embody what the group is about. that's just the psychology of how groups work...

If you think about, it is no different from anything else. Life, at its core, is what we know and do everyday. You do car enthusiasm because it's what fulfills your life, you play sports because that's what fulfills your life, you get married because that's what fulfills your life, you have children, you get a house, you get old and grey.... that's life. Your religion, your belief (in whatever it is) is as much a part of life as anything else you involve yourself in.

So no, the stakes are the same. Life IS on the line, no matter how you decide to live it.

i have to disagree here. depending on how you look at it, the stakes are quite different. yeah at the end of the day it's ppl lives...but each of those examples you mentioned are different ASPECTS of life and some of them (marriage, family) are more important than others (sports, cars)...

[ahabion]

this is a really good point. only thing i'd say here is that when the group gets big enough you tend to have the "alpha male" figures develop a form of loose leadership...which eventually centralizes with increased organization. and you're going to have those folks in the group that idolize the ppl in the group that seem to embody what the group is about. that's just the psychology of how groups work...

Not disagreeing with your train of thought by any means, but to touch on an earlier point that you made, the church is an embodiment of people and so similar thinking will occur, friends of friends explaining a concept, father/family relationships, Sunday school teachers... etc.... like thinking will occur.

i have to disagree here. depending on how you look at it, the stakes are quite different. yeah at the end of the day it's ppl lives...but each of those examples you mentioned are different ASPECTS of life and some of them (marriage, family) are more important than others (sports, cars)...

Though differing aspects are still the same... aspects. And yes, some "should" be more important than others, but it depends on who you talk to. I've seen people take sports more seriously than their families, some their cars over a brother or sister, some money over a marriage. Depending how you view "religion," it may be another aspect for some... There's a point that I'm coming to but I'll save it for another bit.

[sport_122]

It doesn't have to be centralized leadership at all. Let me illustrate. If you hang out with rich people and do what rich people do, it is likely that you'll become rich. If you hang out with poor people and do what poor people do, it is likely you'll be poor. If you hang out with friends who enjoys basketball and car enthusiasm, it is likely that you'll enjoy basketball and car enthusiasm. There are no clear leaders (but yourself) but you adopt the mentality, thinking, trends and behaviors as your peers. That is the very definition of herd mentality.

skipped for space

If you think about, it is no different from anything else. Life, at its core, is what we know and do everyday...Your religion, your belief (in whatever it is) is as much a part of life as anything else you involve yourself in.

So no, the stakes are the same. Life IS on the line, no matter how you decide to live it.

The first part makes me ask this...

Aren't you hanging out with them because you are like them already? Every society that I can think of has its social classes except the church. The church(thinking of the community not the buildings) is diverse. It serves people from all walks of life and it brings them together on the same platform, the heart. It is supposed to address the needs of the community and the individual. This happens with personal church members, and when churches go into mission fields.

When we look outside the church, we see the opposite. The poor are not socially adapted to the rich. Try being a poor man in some of the neighborhoods in Alpharetta. Just seeing you on the street would provoke a phone call to the PoPo. Try being a noticeably rich man in the ghetto. Heads will turn and you may lose a few things in the process.

but my point is that people don't hang out with people and then become like those people, they are seeking those types of people because thats who they already are. However, in the church we mostly see this gap closed. Sadly, the american culture has influenced us enough that the same gap goes right back in place as soon as the doors of the worship house open.

So if anything I see this type of relationship as more conducive to a happy life.

[ahabion]

but my point is that people don't hang out with people and then become like those people, they are seeking those types of people because thats who they already are. However, in the church we mostly see this gap closed. Sadly, the american culture has influenced us enough that the same gap goes right back in place as soon as the doors of the worship house open.

So if anything I see this type of relationship as more conducive to a happy life.

Could be possible that you are who your peers already are but what if you're still trying to find who you are? People getting mixed in with the "wrong crowd" or girls dating a guy that is really a polar opposite. Sober friends who socialize with drunks. A rich man can hang out in the ghetto so long as he plays the part. A poor man pretending to be rich (happens all the time: Con men). (was thinking about Disney's Aladdin, princess sneaking off to be a commoner)

Yes, it is in the church that we see the gap close but though from different walks of life, they share the common ground: church. So though many may be of a different feather (birds) they still fly south. (though we don't notice it here as much as you would in the North )