Do you believe in God? Simple question

[zimabog]

I point this out because the truth is that equations present conscious origin. No equations or formula to calculate anything originates from nowhere.

This relates directly to the popular "blind watchmaker" debate (except we are not talking about evolution). I do not agree that equations present conscious origin. You seem to be saying that the universe cannot exist without a creator to ultimately create it. This is highly debatable as it is impossible to prove that the universe even had an ultimate 1st creation (not talking about any cyclic destruction/construction that may be present).

Things that "just happen" have no equation to represent them. The design of triangles, the formulaic expressions for circles and spheres, and pyramids, these all have a function that is created and designed. The formulas ONLY work because the objects were designed.

So what came first? The formula or the idea of object?

Circles do not form naturally in our universe. Squares do not form naturally, triangles, do not form naturally. So if you want to discuss the formulaic expressions which are universal to our human understanding in mathematics then you need to understand that these things are product of a conscious designer and not circumstance. Likewise, formulas are a product of the design of these objects. The objects do not occur naturally.

I fail to see how this helps your argument. You say these shapes do not form naturally (many shapes do though). But wouldnt a naturally forming shape be product of the designer you describe?

When speaking of natural phenomenon. It is not to be forgotten that the same rules apply. The only reason we can understand the speed of light or the properties of alkaline metals is because they follow rules. They have constants. The question is why...why is it that these things all act within a certain spectrum if our universe is simply the product of disorder and chaotic probability. All it takes is for a few of these things to be without "rule" for the formula to never work. For instance, the speed of light, slowing itself down or the rules of mass and gravity deciding that they do not want to work this time.

Are you saying that in a universe without a designer formulas would not work? As in one moment gravity hold me down, but another moment, with nothing changed, gravity throws me into the air?

"The question is why...why is it that these things all act within a certain spectrum if our universe is simply the product of disorder and chaotic probability."

If the universe had different operating formulas, its not that there would be no universe, its just that the universe would be different than the universe we know now.

We do not see that. And we have yet to give a logical counter claim to why things function this way if their is nothing defining the rules with which they can and will function. Hawking observed this. Dawkins observes this but also refuses to name this "process".

Its simple, if there were no operating formulas, you would not exist, but there is always existence. I'll use human evolution as an example. People say, "but existence of homo sapiens, our 5 fingers on a hand, our brains, our legs... it is evidence of design." But its totally selective randomness, human evolution could have as easily produced a creature with 10 fingers on hand, tails, 4 legs, green skin, and babies are born from hatched eggs.. and we would STILL call ourselves human! If the universe had different formulas, it would still be the universe, just a different universe.

So what came first in sports universe, the rules or the actions? Can not actions define rules?

My point is the further you go into the scientific hole, its not the more you understand about our universe, its the more you realize that you DO NOT know what is going on and that the pieces of the puzzle are not simplistic. The presence of our universe methods can only at its root serve to point to a universe logic. Logic does not exist without conscious. What would you define this conscious as. Do you think it is just random that the thousands upon thousands of equations that we have developed work?

I am in extreme disagreement in that you say logic cannot exist without conscious. How does consciousness exist before logic? Who designed god? If god is without cause/designer, who's to say the rest of the universe isn't?