The way Jesus died on the cross...

[AtifSajid]

I want to give some insight on Islamic teachings of Jesus on the cross...

This is what was written for Jesus in the Quran.

When the non-believers were going to crucify Jesus on the cross, God(The Almighty being) took Jesus's soul and replaced him with in imposter. So the person that actually went through the crucifixtion(sp?) was not actually Jesus.

Then you ask why? or how?

We'll you think for yourself - God gives us brains to figure out what is right and what is wrong.

If Christians say Jesus was son of God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus himself combined in a way, then why would God let Jesus go through this kind of pain and suffering. There is no way. You think about it. If you had the power - your loved one was going to get crucified, and you had the power to pull them from that..WOULD YOU? OF COURSE YOU WOULD. Same went for God - he loves his prophets, he sent them to spread HIS word, he gave them all special powers. why would he let them go through with that kind of pain. Why will he let his own creation go through a very painful process like that????

Islam teaches that since Jesus is one of Gods Prophets, God pulled Jesus from the Earth and he will be back to finish his life one day. He was not the one actually crucified, but somewhat like a replacement/imposter took his place. The story goes into more detail then that..


feedback....thanks...

[Sho77a]

YES THAT IS DEFINETLY TRUE IN THE QURAN IT DOES STATE THIS FACT

[chuck]

These aren't my personal beliefs but I'll go ahead and throw out the bibles teachings on the matter

The bible's explains that jesus' crucifixion (no t but close enough atif) was him dying for the sins of man...it basicly says that the cross was symbolic of God's justice for sin. It says that when man sins that they sin against God and without Jesus dying for our sins all sinners would have to pay for their sins in hell. The bible also says that Jesus' soul or spirit was taken by God but in the bible it occurs after he crys out to God and takes his last breath.


Atif - Does the Quran mention anything about jesus rising from the dead 3 days later or just that he will be back to finish his life on earth?? Just curious, I've never really read much into it.

[AtifSajid]

These aren't my personal beliefs but I'll go ahead and throw out the bibles teachings on the matter

The bible's explains that jesus' crucifixion (no t but close enough atif) was him dying for the sins of man...it basicly says that the cross was symbolic of God's justice for sin. It says that when man sins that they sin against God and without Jesus dying for our sins all sinners would have to pay for their sins in hell. The bible also says that Jesus' soul or spirit was taken by God but in the bible it occurs after he crys out to God and takes his last breath.


Atif - Does the Quran mention anything about jesus rising from the dead 3 days later or just that he will be back to finish his life on earth?? Just curious, I've never really read much into it.

chuck - It doesnt say that he rose from the dead, but it does say he will be back to complete the life that he was supposed to have finished. but when he does come back it will be when the world full of sin..

[Killer]

Jesus's died for all of man kind so that we could be forgiven of our sins. Jesus went to hell for us! He took the keys of death, sin, and hell and rose from the grave three days later, still bearing the scars that we gave him. and for that i love HIM...

[AtifSajid]

Jesus's died for all of man kind so that we could be forgiven of our sins. Jesus went to hell for us! He took the keys of death, sin, and hell and rose from the grave three days later, still bearing the scars that we gave him. and for that i love HIM...

I dont want to start any kind of arguement over religion because everyones faith is there faith and I respect that...but...

Christians believe that jesus was son of god, had some God in him, and also had the Holy Ghost in him(correct me if I am wrong, its been a while)

So if Jesus had some God in him, that means he had some major powers? Correct? So if someone has some God in him, why on the cross does he yell out to God to help him? When he has the power to get himself off the cross?

And also why would The supposed SON OF GOD go to hell? Wouldnt that be a reversal? Someone as powerful as Jesus as written in the Bible going to hell? doesnt completely flow in my mind...

Also if Jesus took all mans sin, that means I can sin all I want and still go to heaven? Thats what it looks like to me?

[chuck]

I dont want to start any kind of arguement over religion because everyones faith is there faith and I respect that...but...

Christians believe that jesus was son of god, had some God in him, and also had the Holy Ghost in him(correct me if I am wrong, its been a while)

So if Jesus had some God in him, that means he had some major powers? Correct? So if someone has some God in him, why on the cross does he yell out to God to help him? When he has the power to get himself off the cross?

And also why would The supposed SON OF GOD go to hell? Wouldnt that be a reversal? Someone as powerful as Jesus as written in the Bible going to hell? doesnt completely flow in my mind...

Also if Jesus took all mans sin, that means I can sin all I want and still go to heaven? Thats what it looks like to me?

He didn't actually ask God to help him on the cross, he said "my god my god, why have you forsaken me"...the bible also talks about letting god be the avenger and not seeking revenge on others...

did something i say give you the impression that jesus went to hell, if so i wasn't trying to say that...but you could have gotten it from somewhere else...dunno

and the bible teaches that jesus died to forgive our sins, but that we also strive to be sin free and jesus-like...but if you sin and repent of your sins then your sins can be forgiven...

also different religions views of the bible and different versions of the bible also speak of salvation through faith and just believing in jesus

[2.0 under pressure]

Jesus's died for all of man kind so that we could be forgiven of our sins. Jesus went to hell for us! He took the keys of death, sin, and hell and rose from the grave three days later, still bearing the scars that we gave him. and for that i love HIM...

me


tooo luv him for that

[AtifSajid]

I did get the impression that you said Jesus went to hell..thats why I was like what the hell are you talking about...lol

[ISAtlanta300]

I did get the impression that you said Jesus went to hell..thats why I was like what the hell are you talking about...lol

It is based on the "Creed"

"I believe in God Almighty, etc etc....

...........And then he descended into hell, and was risen on the third day"

So the "hell" He went to was when He was in the "death sleep" i.e. 3 days of being dead, instead of ascending to eternal life.

He then ascended into heaven after rising from the dead and is currently sitting at the right hand of God.

[Hulud]

"If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children
would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of
crosses."
..........Lenny Bruce

[ISAtlanta300]

"If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children
would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of
crosses."
..........Lenny Bruce

Hence the reason he WASN'T killed 20 years ago. The world would have also been verrrry different if he was killed 20 years ago.....

[chuck]

the bible also explains the whole thing on god not saving jesus when it talks about jesus' birth to the virgin mary; says jesus was the son of god sent to die for the sins of man.



atif...not looking to join in any religion or anything, i'm kinda just curious about the whole thing...does the Quran go into any detail about who the imposter was that took jesus' place??

[4dmin]

did you know there isn't any records of the events of Jesus being crucified; as played out in the bible. But there is records of before and after in that same time period. Makes you kinda think this is just another fable

There was a big thing on this on Discovery Channel, they had a bunch of Harvard, Emory, etc Professors all agreeing on these events b/c they have records dating back to pre crucifixion and there is no mention of Jesus.

So what do you think about that? In that case Jesus was never crucified, which would make the bible incorrect...

[chuck]

did you know there isn't any records of the events of Jesus being crucified; as played out in the bible. But there is records of before and after in that same time period. Makes you kinda think this is just another fable

There was a big thing on this on Discovery Channel, they had a bunch of Harvard, Emory, etc Professors all agreeing on these events b/c they have records dating back to pre crucifixion and there is no mention of Jesus.

So what do you think about that? In that case Jesus was never crucified, which would make the bible incorrect...

not trying to get into an argument but i can give the christian perspective on this:

there is historical evidence a man named jesus was crucified, its called the bible. if you can't trust historical documents, written by people, without video or photos then who says george washington was ever president???

so if i get together with a bunch of my friends and decide that the us constitution isn't something i care to follow does that mean that it is incorrect too??




just debating on the issue...not taking sides, i could give 2 shits less...i'm alive and thats all that matters...just interesting to see different sides from believers and non-believers alike as well as the cultural diversity in here...kinda cool if you ask me.

[Killer]

not trying to get into an argument but i can give the christian perspective on this:

there is historical evidence a man named jesus was crucified, its called the bible. if you can't trust historical documents, written by people, without video or photos then who says george washington was ever president???

so if i get together with a bunch of my friends and decide that the us constitution isn't something i care to follow does that me that it is incorrect too??




just debating on the issue...not taking sides, i could give 2 shits less...i'm alive and thats all that matters...just interesting to see different sides from believers and non-believers alike as well as the cultural diversity in here...kinda cool if you ask me.

great point!!!

[4dmin]

not trying to get into an argument but i can give the christian perspective on this:

there is historical evidence a man named jesus was crucified, its called the bible. if you can't trust historical documents, written by people, without video or photos then who says george washington was ever president???

so if i get together with a bunch of my friends and decide that the us constitution isn't something i care to follow does that mean that it is incorrect too??




just debating on the issue...not taking sides, i could give 2 shits less...i'm alive and thats all that matters...just interesting to see different sides from believers and non-believers alike as well as the cultural diversity in here...kinda cool if you ask me.

great post, but then again is there a bible as old as the roman records that have been found and dated? i don't think so. jesus was a common name so its not like just one jesus was crucified i'm sure many were, but as dipicted in the bible there are no roman records to back it. like i said they already did the research on this and as i said before there is a possiblilty it isn't in any roman records that have been found. that the romans wanted it erased from histroy basically.

the bible is built on faith not facts, it was written by man. if we took the bible word for word we would still be in medevil times and incest would be common.

[Killer]

no it's not based on faith... yeah it was written by men... the men who God chose to write it.... there are to many things that fit with the bible to this day for it not to be true... try reading it... i promise you'll find stuff that points to everything happening in the world right now...

[4dmin]

no it's not based on faith... yeah it was written by men... the men who God chose to write it.... there are to many things that fit with the bible to this day for it not to be true... try reading it... i promise you'll find stuff that points to everything happening in the world right now...

its not based on faith really? what is it based on??? i have read many parts of the bible... but reading it and trying to based religion on reality is false... its like a sunday morning televangelist healing retards. like i said before what is the copyright of your bible? do you read the king james version of the bible?

[chuck]

try reading it... i promise you'll find stuff that points to everything happening in the world right now...

I've read the entire old testament and most of the new testament...skipped the mumbo jumbo like most of the psalms and such...not something i care to base my life on. i'm chuck, not the bible...i'm going to live as chuck and chuck is going to experience all that life has to offer...even if the bible did point to it.

but its cool man, i respect your beliefs, i just don't share them

[Killer]

no i've watched plenty of documentaries of the life of Jesus and they all state he was crucified...

and Jesus did go to hell.... He didn't stay long... He went there again to get the keys to hell, death, and sin. and yeah He had all the power He needed to do whatever He wanted while on the cross... that's why it was so special Jesus sacrificed Himself so that who ever believes in Him and truly loves Him and asks for forgiveness can go to heaven.

i'm not trying to argue either just letting truth be told.

[4dmin]

no i've watched plenty of documentaries of the life of Jesus and they all state he was crucified...

and Jesus did go to hell.... He didn't stay long... He went there again to get the keys to hell, death, and sin. and yeah He had all the power He needed to do whatever He wanted while on the cross... that's why it was so special Jesus sacrificed Himself so that who ever believes in Him and truly loves Him and asks for forgiveness can go to heaven.

i'm not trying to argue either just letting truth be told.

well there is a big difference in actual facts and just published text or a documentary on faith... by the way have you checked the copyright date of your bible??? like i was saying they have no roman records indicating Jesus was crucified, but there are records pre/after when Jesus was crucified. Now the only thing that can be said about that would be the possibility he was erased from roman records.

[Killer]

have u looked for the records??? how do u know they're not there???? there has been just as many studies on Jesus as there has been on anyother great person in the past. actually there are just as many if not more records of his existance(spl). now i'm not asking anyone to believe but there have been too many studies and none can say He wasn't crucified.... i'm not some kid who was raised in church and forced to believe it... my parents didn't teach me, nor did anyone else. That's why i may seem a little passionate(spl) about the subject because it's all based on real experience.

[ISAtlanta300]

well there is a big difference in actual facts and just published text or a documentary on faith... by the way have you checked the copyright date of your bible??? like i was saying they have no roman records indicating Jesus was crucified, but there are records pre/after when Jesus was crucified. Now the only thing that can be said about that would be the possibility he was erased from roman records.

That is weird, because I was under the impression that he was crucified according to the Roman procedures of said time.... (Crucifixion was a form of punishment already in place by the romans...)

[Killer]

sorry i'm at work hoss... not currently looking at one... and being a christian is based on faith... and i've read out of both kjv and niv. the bible is based on true events. faith comes in because we can't see Jesus or God but those who chose to believe believe by faith.

[4dmin]

the bible is based on true events.

saying that is like saying that the death of superman is based on actual events.... its something written, but not seen or proved. if it was factual then everyone would belive it. you can go round and round on this all day. what events have been proven, everything in there is based on faith... there has never been a body found, or a tomb for Jesus. Was there someone named Jesus? Sure, i'm sure i could find a few on buford hwy, but do i think they are my savior or anything i should base my life on.... You can't sit there and say something is factual if there is not thing that can back it up.

George Washington was brought up earlier... there is proof he was president, ever been to DC. Try a museum.

[chuck]

George Washington was brought up earlier... there is proof he was president, ever been to DC. Try a museum.

The name was mentioned, I'm certianly not saying he didn't exsist...I think we all know that, or I figured we all would. Would the name Plato or have fit the context better...I was just bringing up the point that a lot of people believe in/of a lot of things/people they have never seen, heard, etc...

[Jaimecbr900]

I'll say this much 'cause yall knew I was gonna:

We can disect each and every religious belief and try and make things tangible. Problem is that by definition you have to have "FAITH". No matter what religion you are there will always be things about it that people will not understand. Most of the time they don't understand it because they don't want to. When you don't want to, you will always find things to justify your view point. It's not hard.

It's like trying to explain "air" or "light rays" or even "death" to a 5 yr old. It's hard for them to fathom that "air" exists even though they can't see it. It's hard for them to truly understand what "death" really is. Eventually, they get it and understand it. Not because someone blew smoke up into that "air" or because they actually "died", but because things just simply clicked.

BTW, there have been many many scholars that have in fact shown proof that many things in the bible tangibly happened. Again, if you want to find that info, you will. Same goes the other way. It's ironic that the majority of people, lifestyles, dress, parts of the world, and many other things mentioned in the bible have in fact been proven to have existed and are even common knowledge. How can that be "accurate" and other parts not????

What's truly ironic is that some people believe in the infinite wisdom of single celled organisms that magically morph into humans, pangea, the big bang, and A.D.D. but they can't fathom something bigger than themselves. Single cell protozoa are smarter than all the brightest minds in the world because they supposedly "made" a human and real humans can only copy them. THAT makes total sense.....then you want to question the Bible?

The Quran is also written in paper just like the bible. How come noone is questioning it's validity like the Bible????? No disrespect meant, since I'm not the one questioning it, but it's a valid question.

[Killer]

there has never been a body found, or a tomb for Jesus

that's because He ascended into heaven after He arose from the dead........ and i'm sure there are a lot of unmarked graves/tombs out there.... As much as i would love to be able to convince you to believe, I understand we have different opinions. But your basically trying to tell me it's all fake and that the Bible is just a huge story book... there are a lot of things in this world that can not fully be explained, yet plenty of people believe in... it's been a great discussion but i think i'm done with it.... thanks for all the opinions..

[4dmin]

that's because He ascended into heaven after He arose from the dead........ and i'm sure there are a lot of unmarked graves/tombs out there.... As much as i would love to be able to convince you to believe, I understand we have different opinions. But your basically trying to tell me it's all fake and that the Bible is just a huge story book... there are a lot of things in this world that can not fully be explained, yet plenty of people believe in... it's been a great discussion but i think i'm done with it.... thanks for all the opinions..

Ok, if he arose from the dead, there wouldn't be a body??? Com'on your talking about everything your religion is based around.

By the way this isn't a topic of "convicing people to believe" its a discussion for adults. I'm not asking you to take on my view i merely started this w/ some things i have read/scene. You can't always expect people to think the same way you do, if your GOD gave us minds to think i'm definately going to use it

[4dmin]

It's ironic that the majority of people, lifestyles, dress, parts of the world, and many other things mentioned in the bible have in fact been proven to have existed and are even common knowledge. How can that be "accurate" and other parts not????

the same goes for history books, they can accurately depict life +/-1000s year ago and it as been proven, but Adam/Eve, Noah, Jesus being crucified, etc; sorry but there is no proof. Thats where your faith has to begin... even in the first post the Quran obviously states to some extent even Jesus wasn't crucified.

If they have records dating back to BC on crucifixions but nothing in any roman history talks of Jesus, what do you say to that? You need to remember your trying to base happenings on a person in a time period when polythesis ran the world, we didn't make the jump to monothesis till quite a few years later.

I just find it funny how christians find it so easy to question others beliefs then to prove their own

[Jaimecbr900]

the same goes for history books, they can accurately depict life +/-1000s year ago and it as been proven, but Adam/Eve, Noah, Jesus being crucified, etc; sorry but there is no proof.

There is proof, just not proof YOU believe in. It's called the BIBLE. It's a book just like any other history book. Why do you choose to believe something written on those pages and not the bible??? The Bible actually has been around since it was written as it is first hand accounts of things that happened. A "history book" on the other hand is NOT a FIRST hand account of anything. It is mostly based on either materials, ideas, or thesis that the author came up with. Why not question those books??? Seems to me that they have far more questionable info in them since there is no tangible evidence of what Christopher Columbus was "thinking" or what Napoleon "ate" one morning yet we all KNOW they both existed, right? Then why is it sooooo far fetched that Jesus existed then????

Religion by definition is something you BELIEVE and have FAITH exists. If you have neither, then it's easy to see how you can try and pick apart everything it stands for. Why not pick apart how no human has ever "made" another human with their bare hands? Why not pick apart how we can create computers, but can't create a flower? Why not question how even WE don't have a clue how the brain works? What "proof" is there for the "big bang theory"? Every shred of "proof" that one scientist comes up with, another has a logical reason why it's NOT. Just like this debate. Everything one person firmly believes in, another comes in with another take on.

It is really not that hard to understand FAITH and beliefs. You either have it or you don't. It's like a 5 yr old that doesn't quite grasp their parents real life scientific explaination of what "air" is and does. They'll never "get it" until they realize simply that mom and dad were right. Air does exist and later on in life they totally understood the why's and how's. FAITH is the same way. Some people "get it", while others don't. Some people are more eloquent and are scholars of the Bible and can probably shoot down everyone of your rebuttals. I am not that smart. I do however have FAITH. Until the time that you DO have faith, it will never make sense to you LOGICALLY. LOGIC is nowhere in the definition of FAITH.

they have records dating back to BC on crucifixions but nothing in any roman history talks of Jesus, what do you say to that?

Lots of things could be said. One is that I'm positive quite a few things are missing out of these so called "accurate" Roman records for one. For two, where are these Roman records you speak of? You getting the info out of a history book? Is that the Roman records you are talking about? Because if first hand accounts aren't accurate in your eyes, then what are words on a page written a few years ago about an event 2500 yrs ago considered?????

Again, it all boils down to what YOU believe. Do you have to blow a smoke cloud into the air to believe air exists??? You can't see it otherwise, but you KNOW it's there. Same thing with your FAITH. You may not be able to show someone a fossilized bone from Jesus' leg, but you certainly can talk to them about him. They can choose to believe or not believe. Same as when your parents explained to you intangible things. Some of those things you chose NOT to believe too, only to later find out you were wrong. Unfortunately, the cost of believing in Jesus or not is considerably higher than not believing your parents about "air".

I just find it funny how christians find it so easy to question others beliefs then to prove their own

The lack of belief in GOD is called aethiesm. Aethiests by definition DON'T believe in a higher power, so therefore there are NO beliefs to question because they have no beliefs at all.

But to answer your question directly: Christians don't NEED "proof" of their own beliefs. They simply have FAITH and believe.

[Killer]

Again, it all boils down to what YOU believe. Do you have to blow a smoke cloud into the air to believe air exists??? You can't see it otherwise, but you KNOW it's there. Same thing with your FAITH. You may not be able to show someone a fossilized bone from Jesus' leg, but you certainly can talk to them about him. They can choose to believe or not believe. Same as when your parents explained to you intangible things. Some of those things you chose NOT to believe too, only to later find out you were wrong. Unfortunately, the cost of believing in Jesus or not is considerably higher than not believing your parents about "air".

Exactly!!!!! again i'm not basing my beliefs on stories and what other people have told me... i've been through it.. i've seen things happen in my life that only one person could have done! GOD!!!!! I went through a stage of trying to not believe and couldn't everything kept pointing to Jesus, i didn't go to a service for months... and the next time i did it was like i told the preacher my experiences and he was preaching about them... when i hadn't told a single soul... that's how i know HE is real!

[4dmin]

Exactly!!!!! again i'm not basing my beliefs on stories and what other people have told me... i've been through it.. i've seen things happen in my life that only one person could have done! GOD!!!!! I went through a stage of trying to not believe and couldn't everything kept pointing to Jesus, i didn't go to a service for months... and the next time i did it was like i told the preacher my experiences and he was preaching about them... when i hadn't told a single soul... that's how i know HE is real!

seriously man, the easiest thing in the world is to relate gospel to real life. but you guys are getting off topic we are talking about Jesus on the cross and the validity of these events in the bible.

[Pedal]

There is proof, just not proof YOU believe in. It's called the BIBLE. It's a book just like any other history book. Why do you choose to believe something written on those pages and not the bible??? The Bible actually has been around since it was written as it is first hand accounts of things that happened. A "history book" on the other hand is NOT a FIRST hand account of anything. It is mostly based on either materials, ideas, or thesis that the author came up with. Why not question those books??? Seems to me that they have far more questionable info in them since there is no tangible evidence of what Christopher Columbus was "thinking" or what Napoleon "ate" one morning yet we all KNOW they both existed, right? Then why is it sooooo far fetched that Jesus existed then????

how many times had the bible been translated?????? so it is not truly a first hand account of anything.... when something is translated from one language to another it is extreamly possibale that is is misinterperated(sp) or looses osme of its meening....like they have word for things that we dont have word for so we use the closest word we have to make it simmilar..but in turn in years to come people willl not understand that each word is not what it once may have been

[fight club]

a way to look at the bible is this. the bible is a collections of peoples viewpoints. yes it is based on historical documents that do exist, but what admin is trying to say with the roman records is the dead sea scrolls etc are written by people glorifying the person they believe to be thier savior. so in such as saying no documentation is around to prove jesus, adam/eve etc, i take it as there is no unbiased documentation such as roman recordings of the crucifixions. we know those to be unbiased because its straight fact ie john doe, crucified friday 24th, crime: theft.
as responce to the historical proof of timeline etc of the bible, yes we know jerusalum and nazareth existed. that is not argued. what is argued is the all mighty and his son who was sent to save us.
also, in questioning the bible, you also invertently question the quaran as the quaran does speak of jesus so questioning jesus also questions its validity as well as the bibles.

[4dmin]

a way to look at the bible is this. the bible is a collections of peoples viewpoints. yes it is based on historical documents that do exist, but what admin is trying to say with the roman records is the dead sea scrolls etc are written by people glorifying the person they believe to be thier savior. so in such as saying no documentation is around to prove jesus, adam/eve etc, i take it as there is no unbiased documentation such as roman recordings of the crucifixions. we know those to be unbiased because its straight fact ie john doe, crucified friday 24th, crime: theft.
as responce to the historical proof of timeline etc of the bible, yes we know jerusalum and nazareth existed. that is not argued. what is argued is the all mighty and his son who was sent to save us.
also, in questioning the bible, you also invertently question the quaran as the quaran does speak of jesus so questioning jesus also questions its validity as well as the bibles.

+10

[fight club]

thanks!!

[4dmin]

^ Jamie you answered my question perfect as should any christian would, you guys are too predictable. What you boil your religion down to is if you believe it its real... which is not always true... thats like me saying well the sky is red. why b/c i belive it is.

if the bible wasn't printed until around the 15th century then hold old is it? How is it "FIRST HAND" accounts of what happened. They have collections of written works dating back to BC. What would you chalk that up to be? Not first hand accounts. From what i've found Moses didn't write anything until 1445 bc, according to the bible. So what do you call ancient works by the eygptians, greeks, romans pre Jesus period??? Is all of that fake? Some of these works still exsist today.

by the way

a·the·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

i never said i was, so what does that have to do w/ anything.

[Jaimecbr900]

^ Jamie you answered my question perfect as should any christian would, you guys are too predictable. What you boil your religion down to is if you believe it its real... which is not always true... thats like me saying well the sky is red. why b/c i belive it is.

You may want to re-invent the wheel about what "FAITH" is and isn't, but you can't argue with definitions.

faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.

There was a reason why I highlighted the word "FAITH" in my response to your post. FAITH is in fact the cornerstone of Religion and therefore CAN NOT be LOGICALLY explained as you are trying to do.

if the bible wasn't printed until around the 15th century then hold old is it? How is it "FIRST HAND" accounts of what happened. They have collections of written works dating back to BC. What would you chalk that up to be? Not first hand accounts. From what i've found Moses didn't write anything until 1445 bc, according to the bible. So what do you call ancient works by the eygptians, greeks, romans pre Jesus period??? Is all of that fake? Some of these works still exsist today.

That's where you're wrong. The bible wasn't printed in the 15th century, it was TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH in the 13th century by a man named John Wikcliffe. It was later "revised" or further made understandable in English by William Tindle in 1535.

What you are referring to is the "King James" version which came out in 1611. That version was written by 47 scholars from Oxford, Cambridge, and Westminster. Not too shabby of schools, eh??? Reason why it was "written" by scholars from such prestigious and highly recognized institutions??? Because they had to have a huge knowledge in the GREEK language and related dialects in order to propertly and more importantly ACCURATELY transcribe the 66 books, 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New, of the then GREEK Bible. 22 of those books are Historical , 5 are poetical, 18 are prophetical, 21 are epistolary. So you see, the "King James" version was in fact TECHNICALLY "written" by these scholars although they were merely accurately translating it.

The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, and the New Testament was written in Greek. There are no original ancient Hebrew manuscripts older than the 10th century. Does that mean the bible "began" in the 10th Century? No. We do have however original manuscripts that were translated from Hebrew to Greek in a language called Septuagint that date back to atleast 300 years BEFORE Christ. So tie the dots....Old Testament was written BEFORE Christ in Hebrew (but the original transcripts are long gone) but before they were "gone" it was translated into Septuagint (which the documents DO exist) and those documents are dating back to atleast 300 BC and then THOSE documents were translated from the GREEK dialect it is to the ENGLISH we now today in two different times by more than 50 people as a combined effort between the 12th and 16th centuries.

Furthermore, of the Greek New Testament there are several ORIGINAL manuscripts dating back to 350 A.D. One of which is sitting in a British MUSEUM right now. There is also another one in the Vatican that has been dated back to between 300-325 A.D. Finally there is yet another in Russia that was found in a Convent on Mt. Sinai. How's that for tangible "proof" that something or someone did in fact EXIST?????

So to summarize: It goes Old Testament written by Hebrews before Christ+first hand accounts from when Christ WAS here to take care of business+more accounts from people that were there AFTER he died on the cross+translations from language to language=Bible you know today.

How right or wrong, how accurate or not, how much you believe or not all boils down to FAITH that what happened did in fact happen. THIS is why you will ALWAYS get an answer of FAITH when you ask a Christian to explain their beliefs LOGICALLY to you. BECAUSE "logic" by definition has NOTHING to do with FAITH. So you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.



BTW, my only reference to aethiesm was because you said us "Christians" always try and refute the "beliefs" of NON-believers. I merely pointed out that is an oxymoron. You can't argue with someone over "beliefs" they don't have about a God they don't think exists. I didn't infer that you were one way or the other. I was merely being a smart ass.....