Obama '08

[tony]

Can you say Obama is doing anything differently though? He is running for the middle by talking about usually conservative christian social ideals. Trying to earn more votes and make him "look" less extreme.

I'll totally agree that Obama has pandered, his vote on the FISA Bill (dont see how conservatives can support that) and things he has been saying lately does raise a red flag but at the end of the day, McCain is a continuation of Bush to me while Obama is hopefully a push in a different direction.

Things that I will admit on Obama:

He wont pull out of Iraq, you'd be an idiot to think otherwise

He is a politician, and a smooth talking one at that.. all i can do is trust that he has the good of the people in his heart. But he is not 100% change, then again who is?

Universal healthcare will not happen with Obama, I know you conservatives are scared of that but honestly, nowhere in his economic plan is there room for Universal Healthcare.

He will raise taxes, just like the first Bush did and you know what the result was? A damn good 8 years for the Clintons, they can thank H.W Bush for that.

He can be influenced by lobbyists, not a lot of people realize but Nuclear Energy.. yeah he gets some nice checks from them which is why he pushes it so much.

[Lucky DAWG]

I'll totally agree that Obama has pandered, his vote on the FISA Bill (dont see how conservatives can support that) and things he has been saying lately does raise a red flag but at the end of the day, McCain is a continuation of Bush to me while Obama is hopefully a push in a different direction.

Things that I will admit on Obama:

He wont pull out of Iraq, you'd be an idiot to think otherwise

He is a politician, and a smooth talking one at that.. all i can do is trust that he has the good of the people in his heart. But he is not 100% change, then again who is?

Universal healthcare will not happen with Obama, I know you conservatives are scared of that but honestly, nowhere in his economic plan is there room for Universal Healthcare.

He will raise taxes, just like the first Bush did and you know what the result was? A damn good 8 years for the Clintons, they can thank H.W Bush for that.

He can be influenced by lobbyists, not a lot of people realize but Nuclear Energy.. yeah he gets some nice checks from them which is why he pushes it so much.

Read my last post right before you posted that. You hit the nail on the head before i could even point it out.



Even though im a hard headed republican, i respect the fact you can find fault. And we all know John McCain has plenty as well.



It just comes down to my gut feeling really at the end of the day, because like you said i was completely sold on Mitt Romney, i have no idea how McCain got it over him, but thats the system for you.

[Tank]

once again Tony i applaud your for a very enlightened view on this political race, im not the smartest when it comes to politics but from what ive seen each party has its pro's and con's but reading such discussions and keeping up with the news helps thanks again oh and also to all the other great views and words.

[man]

A miracle candidate is not going to pop out of thin air and say everything you want to hear. Are you just not going to vote until that happens? you won't be voting for a long time if so. If you actually and truely believed in what Obama is saying then i would encourage you to vote, if you wanted McCain then i would be delighted to have another vote on the board for him too.


It doesn't need to be written out that you need to vote for you to realize how important it is.


Exercising your freedoms would be taking a stance, not sitting back and watching the world pass you by. And you are right one vote won't change anything by itself, but by taking a positive attitude you will influence others around you into believing in their choice and that kind of attitude is contagious, or atleast i would hope so in this modern world; otherwise you will let others run all over you.

The only frustrating thing about debating this with you is the fact that you say the right things, but from a different point of view and with a different meaning, without regard for others' views. I understand your mentality and when you mention taking a stance, that is exactly what I'm doing. I have followed both campaigns and am well aware of the policies being discussed. I am exercising my freedom to it's fullest extent.

I do vote as I have said earlier and when you say I am just sitting back watching the world pass me by, you couldn't be further from the truth. Voting for something you don't believe is far more passive than refusing to vote for that same thing.

[Alan®]

Lets define intelligence;

Intelligence: the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also : the skilled use of reason

In that video McCain is in THEIR region, he has been briefed but he still does not understand the difference between the cultures. That knowledge is detrimental to any solutions being made in Iraq.

John McCain stated himself:



So if the man has limited knowledge of the culture in Iraq, and limited knowledge of Economics.. two very important issues in this country at the moment but I know I have heard Obama speak at lengths about both subjects, its quite easy to conclude that McCain is not on the same level as Obama as it pertains to things going on in this country today.

Furthermore, its no secret that if you typically put a 71 year old's mental stability vs someone in their mid 40's, the younger person has a greater mental capacity. There are exceptions but I seriously doubt McCain is one.

I still don't think that video shows McCain's "Intelligence". I see that video as the equivallent to a blooper on a tv show. He just messed up is all. I have a hard time beliveing that a guy that was in the military, that pushed for the surge, so on and so forth, would honestly not be able to tell you the difference. Hell I'll be honest I can only give you a very limited compare and contrast of the two. And yea ok Obama may have talked about both subjects at length but that doesn't mean that he can actually make the right call based on what he "knows" hell according to what he "knew" we were going to pull out of iraq within 16 months of taking office(something that everyone knows will never happen).

Obama has a lot of stuff in his ecconomic plan that he simply can not pay for(like universal health care) and to add to that he will be hitting hard the small business owners in this country. I'll give you an example.

One of the things on Obama's ecconomic plan is if a small company has over 19 employees and one of them decides to take leave (I forget what for) the employee gets paid meanwhile the employer is having to fill him employee temporarily. My dad has already said if he gets in and gets that through. He will do whatever it takes to get down to 19. And you would be crazy to think that other small business owners won't do the same thing.

To add to this last week a guy called him out on it durring one of his town hall meetings and Obama said "No I'm not oging to do that and I'm not going to raise your taxes either". This after the guy read it straight out of his ecconomic plan.

Yes a guy that is 40 can learn more than a a guy that is 70 I'll give you that but at the end of the day Obama is about the redistribution of wealth in America and I don't agree with that.

[BB6dohcvtec]

I still don't think that video shows McCain's "Intelligence". I see that video as the equivallent to a blooper on a tv show. He just messed up is all. I have a hard time beliveing that a guy that was in the military, that pushed for the surge, so on and so forth, would honestly not be able to tell you the difference. Hell I'll be honest I can only give you a very limited compare and contrast of the two. And yea ok Obama may have talked about both subjects at length but that doesn't mean that he can actually make the right call based on what he "knows" hell according to what he "knew" we were going to pull out of iraq within 16 months of taking office(something that everyone knows will never happen).

Obama has a lot of stuff in his ecconomic plan that he simply can not pay for(like universal health care) and to add to that he will be hitting hard the small business owners in this country. I'll give you an example.

One of the things on Obama's ecconomic plan is if a small company has over 19 employees and one of them decides to take leave (I forget what for) the employee gets paid meanwhile the employer is having to fill him employee temporarily. My dad has already said if he gets in and gets that through. He will do whatever it takes to get down to 19. And you would be crazy to think that other small business owners won't do the same thing.

To add to this last week a guy called him out on it durring one of his town hall meetings and Obama said "No I'm not oging to do that and I'm not going to raise your taxes either". This after the guy read it straight out of his ecconomic plan.

Yes a guy that is 40 can learn more than a a guy that is 70 I'll give you that but at the end of the day Obama is about the redistribution of wealth in America and I don't agree with that.

Damn how did he get his final economic plan. didn't know he even had a definite one yet.

[Lucky DAWG]

The only frustrating thing about debating this with you is the fact that you say the right things, but from a different point of view and with a different meaning, without regard for others' views. I understand your mentality and when you mention taking a stance, that is exactly what I'm doing. I have followed both campaigns and am well aware of the policies being discussed. I am exercising my freedom to it's fullest extent.

I do vote as I have said earlier and when you say I am just sitting back watching the world pass me by, you couldn't be further from the truth. Voting for something you don't believe is far more passive than refusing to vote for that same thing.

No trust me i see what you are saying. But is there not one that you favor over the other to even the slightest degree? Even voting for someone like Ron Paul if you liked him would be making a statement and taking a vote away from the two big party candidates.


I just have hard time understanding how you can not like one over the other and then vote for them. I mean hell we all know its your freedom to do that, no one is going to put a gun to your head and 99% of strangers in real life wouldn't say anything to you in person if you told them that and they disagreed with your point of view on not voting.


I guess my point is the way i look at it in my position is that i don't like mccain and i don't like obama, but i know that mccain is more of a step in the direction that i want then Obama is, if that makes any sense...

[tony]

I still don't think that video shows McCain's "Intelligence". I see that video as the equivallent to a blooper on a tv show. He just messed up is all. I have a hard time beliveing that a guy that was in the military, that pushed for the surge, so on and so forth, would honestly not be able to tell you the difference. Hell I'll be honest I can only give you a very limited compare and contrast of the two. And yea ok Obama may have talked about both subjects at length but that doesn't mean that he can actually make the right call based on what he "knows" hell according to what he "knew" we were going to pull out of iraq within 16 months of taking office(something that everyone knows will never happen).

Bloopers is someone tripping over a toy, ladder falling from a roof.. NOT misunderstanding the culture of a present War Zone. You may have a hard time believing it but that is not the only time he has made that "blunder" He doesn't understand, he's too old. By the way he still refers to Vietnamese as "gooks," and I quote:

"I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live."

Thats the man you support.

Obama has a lot of stuff in his ecconomic plan that he simply can not pay for(like universal health care) and to add to that he will be hitting hard the small business owners in this country. I'll give you an example.

Do you read? Comprehend english? If so tell me where it says Universal Healthcare

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

One of the things on Obama's ecconomic plan is if a small company has over 19 employees and one of them decides to take leave (I forget what for) the employee gets paid meanwhile the employer is having to fill him employee temporarily. My dad has already said if he gets in and gets that through. He will do whatever it takes to get down to 19. And you would be crazy to think that other small business owners won't do the same thing.

With any politician they don't get it right on every single issue. I'll choose the candidate who plans to pull us out of an economic recession, end the war in Iraq and pursue alternative fuels over say.. your dad's 19 employees, sorry but there are much more important issues to me.

[Lucky DAWG]

Bloopers is someone tripping over a toy, ladder falling from a roof.. NOT misunderstanding the culture of a present War Zone. You may have a hard time believing it but that is not the only time he has made that "blunder" He doesn't understand, he's too old. By the way he still refers to Vietnamese as "gooks," and I quote:



Thats the man you support.



Do you read? Comprehend english? If so tell me where it says Universal Healthcare

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/



With any politician they don't get it right on every single issue. I'll choose the candidate who plans to pull us out of an economic recession, end the war in Iraq and pursue alternative fuels over say.. your dad's 19 employees, sorry but there are much more important issues to me.

This is true that you can't get the best package all in one man...




But taxing to hell and back the private sector to redistribute the wealth in a time like this is no way to pull a country out of a recession.

[tony]

This is true that you can't get the best package all in one man...




But taxing to hell and back the private sector to redistribute the wealth in a time like this is no way to pull a country out of a recession.

So would you rather him tax the middle and lower classes instead? Someone has to pay, in some fashion or another we will all have to contribute to the cause.

[Alan®]

Bloopers is someone tripping over a toy, ladder falling from a roof.. NOT misunderstanding the culture of a present War Zone. You may have a hard time believing it but that is not the only time he has made that "blunder" He doesn't understand, he's too old. By the way he still refers to Vietnamese as "gooks," and I quote:



Thats the man you support.



Do you read? Comprehend english? If so tell me where it says Universal Healthcare

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/



With any politician they don't get it right on every single issue. I'll choose the candidate who plans to pull us out of an economic recession, end the war in Iraq and pursue alternative fuels over say.. your dad's 19 employees, sorry but there are much more important issues to me.

Tony fact of the matter is you have still yet to definitevly proved that he misunderstood the culture of a war zone. All you have shown me is one video where he go two tribes mixed up. We all make small mistakes like that. McCain is a man no different or better from the rest of us.


As far as the universal health care thing

Well, look, I believe in universal health care, as does Sen. Clinton. And the point of the debate, is that Sen. Clinton repeatedly claims that I don't stand for universal health care. And, you know, for Sen. Clinton to say that, I think, is simply not accurate. Every expert has said that anybody who wants health care under my plan will be able to obtain it. President Clinton's own secretary of Labor has said that my plan does more to reduce costs and as a consequence makes sure that the people who need health care right now, all across America, will be able to obtain it. And we do more to reduce costs than any other plan that's been out there.

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/070125-the_time_has_co/
Notice the title.

[ironchef]

So would you rather him tax the middle and lower classes instead? Someone has to pay, in some fashion or another we will all have to contribute to the cause.

Rather him keep the current tax levels in place, if not lower them. However he should focus on redistributing government spending, trimming the excess (which there is way too much of), and balancing the budget.

[Alan®]

Another thing I don't believe that any canidate will end the war any time soon. As much as Obama ranted on about "16 months" he won't and can't do it.

And yes we need a leader that is going to help us through the war and our economic problems but don't you think that policies like the ones I mentioned would only be detrimental not beneficial.

[tony]

Rather him keep the current tax levels in place, if not lower them. However he should focus on redistributing government spending, trimming the excess (which there is way too much of), and balancing the budget.

In a perfect world legislators don't add pork spending to bills with genuine intentions, but we don't live in a perfect world. If politicians don't get funding for their constituents then they lose their seat when the next election comes up, our system is not set up to trim excess spending.

To continue to fund a $9 Billion a month war, explore alternative energy sources, even drill for new oil is going to cost money.. that money comes from somewhere.. the taxpayers. So again I ask, who should foot the bill? Middle class? The poor? Or the rich? Or do we continue this misnomer that lower taxes on the rich trickles down to the average U.S citizen.

[ironchef]

Thats the point, Obama should get us out of Iraq, save $9 billion a month, cut down on defense spending, and do whatever else he has to do to make it work. Increasing the tax rates even if only on the rich won't solve the problem. They'll be able to find new loopholes, new tax shelters, take money off shore, etc.

[Alan®]

They'll be able to find new loopholes, new tax shelters, take money off shore, etc.

Here we go again with the evil rich's loop holes

[ironchef]

Whoa there. I've got nothing against them doing that. If I was in their position I'd be doing the same. But thats the point I'm making, even if they raise taxes on the rich, the rich will be able to find ways around it.

[tony]

Tony fact of the matter is you have still yet to definitevly proved that he misunderstood the culture of a war zone. All you have shown me is one video where he go two tribes mixed up. We all make small mistakes like that. McCain is a man no different or better from the rest of us.

First, I'm not here to prove anything to you because at the end of the day, McCain is going to lose.. if you don't see that McCain does not have the mental capacity to effectively lead a country then nothing I type will sway that kind of ignorance anyway.

Second, McCain better be different from the rest of us if he is trying to become Commander in Chief. First and foremost the Commander in Chief should not mistake the demographics of a present and at times hostile occupation. Those are the kind of mistakes that got us in this situation in the first place.. not understanding what is REALLY going on in Iraq

As far as the universal health care thing




http://obama.senate.gov/speech/070125-the_time_has_co/
Notice the title.

You cite an article and quote from January 2007, I give you THE direct and current source in Barack Obama's healthcare plan. His positions have changed over the course of the campaign. Again, nowhere in his CURRENT plan does he mention Universal Healthcare.

[tony]

Thats the point, Obama should get us out of Iraq, save $9 billion a month, cut down on defense spending, and do whatever else he has to do to make it work. Increasing the tax rates even if only on the rich won't solve the problem. They'll be able to find new loopholes, new tax shelters, take money off shore, etc.

It tends to be a bit complicated, the reason why Barack wont pull out of Iraq will not be because he does not want to.. it is because it requires a LOT of diplomacy and working with Iran, Syria and other nations in the middle east.

Cutting spending on defense would be very wrong, especially with the instability in the middle east between Israel and Iran. Bring the troops home but keep the military strong, that requires revenue. Again, the next president has to explore alternative energy, handle the economic crisis and balance the budget.. that does not happen without some kind of revenue coming in. Someone has to foot the bill..

[Lucky DAWG]

Whoa there. I've got nothing against them doing that. If I was in their position I'd be doing the same. But thats the point I'm making, even if they raise taxes on the rich, the rich will be able to find ways around it.

I agree completely, the government should not be punishing the rich. They should be giving them incentives to invest here in America instead of offshores and stop penalizing them and taking such a big brother stance.



And no i don't want them to tax the lower and middle class more, i want Fair Tax to be instituted if anything and have the IRS obliterated, no income taxes.



The rich are the ones that stimulate the economy and make the decisions that ultimately affect the rest of it whether or not we like it. We need them to have more confidence in America and create more jobs here, that is the problem.


Social issues are the least of our concerns right now, we need to get the country financially secure before we do anything; we are no longer the super power we used to be.



And although i am an avid supporter of Military funding, it can be cut back. This is coming from a republican saying this, even though the majority of ALL technological advances have come from military incentives; our military spending is greater then every other country's in the world combined, thats just way over the top and we simply can't afford it now.

[Alan®]

First, I'm not here to prove anything to you because at the end of the day, McCain is going to lose.. if you don't see that McCain does not have the mental capacity to effectively lead a country then nothing I type will sway that kind of ignorance anyway.

Nor do I expect you to prove anything but yet you make a claim with no evidence to back it up and yet your adiment about it. I honestly like having these discussion with you, not debates, discussions because it makes me do research and evaluate certian standpoints. However I simply can not agree with you that the fact that you think that he doesnt have the mental capacity to be the president makes me an ignorant person. Frankly I think that kind of comment in it of itself is kind of ignorant my nothing personal but it's my opinoin.

Second, McCain better be different from the rest of us if he is trying to become Commander in Chief. First and foremost the Commander in Chief should not mistake the demographics of a present and at times hostile occupation. Those are the kind of mistakes that got us in this situation in the first place.. not understanding what is REALLY going on in Iraq

Your doing what the media does and misconstruing my comment. I'm not going to argue this point any further. Everyone accidentally for a breif second mixes up something with something else. I guarantee you that every president has said something backwards at one point in time and if you give Obama enough time he will as well. And when he does will you think differently of him? I highly doubt getting something backwards momentarily got us into iraq.

You cite an article and quote from January 2007, I give you THE direct and current source in Barack Obama's healthcare plan. His positions have changed over the course of the campaign. Again, nowhere in his CURRENT plan does he mention Universal Healthcare.

Yes your right in his current plan he doesn't mention universal healthcare but as you said he has swapped positions on many subjects 2 of which we have now proven. Two things that got him to where he is now.
I simply put those up to show that he DID support it.

Like I said I enjoy these discussions because I'm the type of person that likes to know everything I can about a subject and you help to acheive that. Just cause I may disagree with you on ceritian things doesn't mean I don't think your a good guy.


Respectfully
-Alan

[Alan®]

Whoa there. I've got nothing against them doing that. If I was in their position I'd be doing the same. But thats the point I'm making, even if they raise taxes on the rich, the rich will be able to find ways around it.

My bad lol. Still though even with all the loop holes one way or the other they will still pay more.

[BanginJimmy]

Few points I need to make.

1. The speech that McCain said he knew very little about economics was made back in 05, well before he ever threw his hat in for president. There is also a very large difference between the microeconomics that most of us have a vague idea of, and macroeconomics that the president has to have a basic, and no more, knowlege of.

2. The Bush tax cuts didnt raise taxes on anyone. People that imply that are simply adding information to benefit their bias. We are not in a recession, its just a very slow economy. Several factors add into this but the main ones being the price of oil, natural disasters, and the presidential election. Iraq has much less to do with it than people like to admit. If anything it helps because of the amount of added cash into the economy when the contractors and military come home.

3. Obama has every intention to raise taxes on EVERYONE. Do a quick study on the evolution of the income tax and the 16th amendment. These tax increases for the "filthy rich" will simply trickle down to lower and lower tax brackets. Also, THE TRUELY RICH DONT PAY A SINGLE PENNY IN INCOME TAXES. They pay capital gains taxes and its a very simple legal matter to have a main residence moved to a more lenient country while never leaving the US. The people most affected by raising of income taxes will be the working rich, they are the ones that dump huge amounts of cash into our economy on their expensive toys and homes.

4. Obama isnt much more of a speaker than McCain is. I'm sure everyone remembers his meaningless babbling at a townhall meeting in NC, I believe it was. If you want to talk about McCains lack of intelligence because of his issues with different sects of Islam fine, but I can assure everyone here that you couldnt name half of the differences between the many different sects of christianity either. I will also take experience over book smarts any day of the week.

5. Taxing corporations HURTS the average joe. Added SS, Medicare, and payroll taxes lessen raises and eliminates jobs. Those same taxes also raise the prices of goods that they produce.

I'm sure I will think of more to say, but I need to get to bed, I have school in the morning.

[Lucky DAWG]

Bangin Jimmy for president?

[BanginJimmy]

Hell no, I have more skeletons in my closet than 4 Kennedys combined. Even Al Gore would beat me in a landslide.

[Lucky DAWG]

Welllllll i tried



hit me up for Election 2032 if you reconsider, i'll be the campaign manager

[Alan®]

pick me to be running mate

[BanginJimmy]

Well if I do ever run then my first policy to push would be to bring back leaded fuel and big blocks.

I would also be called a war monger

[Lucky DAWG]

Well if I do ever run then my first policy to push would be to bring back leaded fuel and big blocks.

I would also be called a war monger

He who has the biggest stick...

[ShooterMcGavin]

um wrong section?

[Total_Blender]

Just to get a few giggle's or laughs, that's it.

Is IA ever good for anything else?

[Humphrizzle]