Defend your right to own a car.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

So in your best guestimation, explain why blacks have such an impact on the crime rate or why they overwhelmingly vote democratic.

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I think two of the biggest causes of crime are poverty and living in a densely populated area. Blacks are disproportionately poor and disproportionately live in densely populated cities. Therefore the cause is not them being black but rather where they live and what their income is.

They overwhelming vote democratic because most of the people with animosity towards blacks are part of the republican party. They find a strong value in community that supports each other and they feel the republican party is more about individuals. I don't see how this contributes towards crime.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

They overwhelming vote democratic because most of the people with animosity towards blacks are part of the republican party. They find a strong value in community that supports each other and they feel the republican party is more about individuals. I don't see how this contributes towards crime.

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It seems to me this is the case with non-white Americans and people of other ethnic backgrounds, Americans are, culturally anyway, individualists, while others; Blacks, Latinos, East Indians, Asians, are more communitarian.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

I think two of the biggest causes of crime are poverty and living in a densely populated area. Blacks are disproportionately poor and disproportionately live in densely populated cities. Therefore the cause is not them being black but rather where they live and what their income is.

They overwhelming vote democratic because most of the people with animosity towards blacks are part of the republican party. They find a strong value in community that supports each other and they feel the republican party is more about individuals. I don't see how this contributes towards crime.

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So what do we do? give them money and force them to move to South Dakota?

In theory, lets say we took a black person out of the ghetto..... then gave him a super higher paying job.... like millions of dollars..... to do something simple that he enjoyed doing....

would that get rid of the criminal problem?

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

What would be a solid fact that you would accept?

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Have you not read anything that I have posted? I stated exactly what is needed prior to Feinstein's gun bill being considered as anything other than an emotional response. It cannot be considered rational or logical without factual data to support such a bill.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

So what do we do? give them money and force them to move to South Dakota?

In theory, lets say we took a black person out of the ghetto..... then gave him a super higher paying job.... like millions of dollars..... to do something simple that he enjoyed doing....

would that get rid of the criminal problem?

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Actually I think that would get rid of the problem, at least for a period of time, but it is obviously not a feasable solution and it treats the symptoms rather than the cause. First of all, it's important to recognize that there are no simple solutions and even the most effective solutions will take years to see major effects. If you remember, I propsed some measures earlier (or maybe it was another thread). They included increased availability of after school programs, increased availability of preschool, job training, and a larger police presence in high crime areas.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

Actually I think that would get rid of the problem, at least for a period of time, but it is obviously not a feasable solution and it treats the symptoms rather than the cause. First of all, it's important to recognize that there are no simple solutions and even the most effective solutions will take years to see major effects. If you remember, I propsed some measures earlier (or maybe it was another thread). They included increased availability of after school programs, increased availability of preschool, job training, and a larger police presence in high crime areas.

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So how would you explain a guy like this? is poverty his problem too? I think even if you removed poverty from the equation and only evaluated the crime rates of rich people, even then.... black people still have higher crime rates.

http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/l/f...r._1693807.jpg

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Originally Posted by David88vert

Have you not read anything that I have posted? I stated exactly what is needed prior to Feinstein's gun bill being considered as anything other than an emotional response. It cannot be considered rational or logical without factual data to support such a bill.

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Humor me...

Is it, at all, possible, for Feinstein's proposal to only be a pitch so grand, it brings the fringe of the decision makers closer to the middle?

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

So how would you explain a guy like this? is poverty his problem too? I think even if you removed poverty from the equation and only evaluated the crime rates of rich people, even then.... black people still have higher crime rates.

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Im gonna have to disagree with you on this one....

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-collar_crime

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Humor me...

Is it, at all, possible, for Feinstein's proposal to only be a pitch so grand, that they can manipulate people into allowing them to chip away at their rights as the lesser of two evils and as soon as they reach a compromise on said "chip" the democrats will immediately begin seeking the next "chip" until they accomplish their ultimate goal which is completely eroding the constitutional rights of american citizens, creating a more docile and dependent population of tax cattle.

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fixed.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Im gonna have to disagree with you on this one....

White-collar crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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I dont have any statistical data to support my opinion....

i'm simply asking the question.....

If we take the black man out of the ghetto and give him a high paying job doing something he loves to do and afford him the ability to live anywhere he pleases and have a life of luxury, will that erase the criminal tendencies that you proclaim are created from being disproportionately poor?

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/...400a043007.jpg

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Humor me...

Is it, at all, possible, for Feinstein's proposal to only be a pitch so grand, it brings the fringe of the decision makers closer to the middle?

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Fixed for less tin-foil-hattery.

I'm not saying poverty is the ONLY cause of crime, just one of the biggest. Wouldn't you at least agree that it's pretty rare for a rich person to hold up someone at gun point? The crimes committed by relatively wealthy are not only less common but also less likely to be violent. I'm sure you can find some counter examples but we are talking about the average.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Fixed for less tin-foil-hattery.

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Democrats...... wolves in sheep's clothing who call anyone who notices the buttons on their sheep suit crazy.

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Originally Posted by bu villain

I'm not saying poverty is the ONLY cause of crime, just one of the biggest. Wouldn't you at least agree that it's pretty rare for a rich person to hold up someone at gun point? The crimes committed by relatively wealthy are not only less common but also less likely to be violent. I'm sure you can find some counter examples but we are talking about the average.

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I dont think environmental factors relinquish people from personal responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I dont think environmental factors relinquish people from personal responsibility.

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I agree. But likewise, personal responsibility does not absolve us from addressing environmental factors. If you really care about reducing crime, you need to address all the factors. Fortunately, it's not an either/or choice, we can address both.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Humor me...

Is it, at all, possible, for Feinstein's proposal to only be a pitch so grand, it brings the fringe of the decision makers closer to the middle?

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Your "middle" is not defined as the middle, except to you.

Feinstein's proposal has been implemented before, and it did not make any significant measureable improvement. We need to redirect the focus away from the tools utilized, and towards the actual cause - people.
A gun cannot kill without some person utilizing it that way - neither can a knife, rope, saw, car, bed sheet, anvil, or any other inanimate object. Until you address the human element, anything else is a futile and emotional response.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I dont think environmental factors relinquish people from personal responsibility.

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I think they do to an extent.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Im gonna have to disagree with you on this one....

White-collar crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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They call it "white" collar - that RACIST!!!!


[/sarcasm]

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

I think they do to an extent.

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Well, with all due respect, you're a moron.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I dont have any statistical data to support my opinion....

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blank doesn't need statistical data - just use emotion in your responses....

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Originally Posted by David88vert

Your "middle" is not defined as the middle, except to you.

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I didn't even say what middle was. Lol

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We need to redirect the focus away from the tools utilized, and towards the actual cause - people.
A gun cannot kill without some person utilizing it that way - neither can a knife, rope, saw, car, bed sheet, anvil, or any other inanimate object. Until you address the human element, anything else is a futile and emotional response.

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An emotional response.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

Well, with all due respect, you're a moron.

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You're right.




Oh wait....you're not. My mistake. I'm right again. Son of a bitch

http://www.udel.edu/chem/C465/senior...ing/enviro.htm

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Originally Posted by bu villain

I agree. But likewise, personal responsibility does not absolve us from addressing environmental factors. If you really care about reducing crime, you need to address all the factors. Fortunately, it's not an either/or choice, we can address both.

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I dont disagree here either.... but there's a variety of different ways to deal with it... and that's where the disagreement begins.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

I think they do to an extent.

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Then you have a warped mind. You cannot justify an unprovoked criminal behavior based on an economic environment without declaring that personal responsibility is a null and void concept.

As such, explain how creating legislation that targets law-abiding citizens that already are practicing personal responsibility, and for the vast majority, are in an economically stable environment, is going to improve crime statistics that are generated by those who show a disregard for the laws created, since per your thinking, they no longer should feel that they should be held personally accountable for their actions..

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

You're right.




Oh wait....you're not. My mistake. I'm right again. Son of a bitch

Sociological and Environmental Factors of Criminal Behavior

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I could care less what your stupid ass read in some book. I lived through these environments and they did nothing more than grow my disdain for people who use them as an excuse.

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Originally Posted by David88vert

Then you have a warped mind. You cannot justify an unprovoked criminal behavior based on an economic environment without declaring that personal responsibility is a null and void concept.

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If child XY grew up in a very low income household, in a poverty stricken neighborhood, with no positive adult influences, is it possible that child XY might be predisposed to a life of crime?

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As such, explain how creating legislation that targets law-abiding citizens that already are practicing personal responsibility, and for the vast majority, are in an economically stable environment, is going to improve crime statistics that are generated by those who show a disregard for the laws created, since per your thinking, they no longer should feel that they should be held personally accountable for their actions..

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Would you agree with me that most guns used in violent crimes are manufactured by some sort of business that manufactures guns?

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I dont disagree here either.... but there's a variety of different ways to deal with it... and that's where the disagreement begins.

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Sure but perhaps we can find some areas of agreement. I know you are in favor of harsher sentencing but that is more on the personal responsibility side. Do the crime, do the time and all that. What are your suggestions for the environmental factors? I have listed some of mine.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I could care less what your stupid ass read in some book. I lived through these environments and they did nothing more than grow my disdain for people who use them as an excuse.

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Then once again, you are beneath intelligent discussion. I'll let you know when we dumb back down into a scope you can understand.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

If child XY grew up in a very low income household, in a poverty stricken neighborhood, with no positive adult influences, is it possible that child XY might be predisposed to a life of crime?

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"Predisposed" - not the best choice of a word, but if you mean that repeatedly having negative influences would have a high potential to influence the individual to think that crime was normal, then yes, absolutely; however, that does not absolve the individual from being held legally accountable in court, should the individual get caught.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Would you agree with me that most guns used in violent crimes are manufactured by some sort of business that manufactures guns?

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Absolutely. Are you suggesting that if all guns were removed from society, that all violent crime would be removed from society? If so, why did we have violent crime before the invention of firearms?

Again, the gun bill in question does not remove all firearms, so exactly what measureable results can we expect from its passage?

just want to throw this out there, http://www.jrsa.org/ibrrc/background...rearmUsage.pdf

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Originally Posted by bu villain

Sure but perhaps we can find some areas of agreement. I know you are in favor of harsher sentencing but that is more on the personal responsibility side. Do the crime, do the time and all that. What are your suggestions for the environmental factors? I have listed some of mine.

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After school programs, more parks, gyms, recreational centers, libraries and things of that nature. I do not support any of the current financial assistance programs that are not related to education. I want everything to be available to everyone, but nothing to be handed to anyone.

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

After school programs, more parks, gyms, recreational centers, libraries and things of that nature. I do not support any of the current financial assistance programs that are not related to education. I want everything to be available to everyone, but nothing to be handed to anyone.

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Then I don't think we disagree all that much. The intent of the financial assistance programs are not to prevent crime anyway.

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Originally Posted by David88vert

"Predisposed" - not the best choice of a word, but if you mean that repeatedly having negative influences would have a high potential to influence the individual to think that crime was normal, then yes, absolutely; however, that does not absolve the individual from being held legally accountable in court, should the individual get caught.

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This child's concept of personal responsibility may be skewed. You didn't say legal accountability.

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Absolutely. Are you suggesting that if all guns were removed from society, that all violent crime would be removed from society?

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Nope. Not suggesting complete removal at all.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Then once again, you are beneath intelligent discussion. I'll let you know when we dumb back down into a scope you can understand.

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I understand environmental factors more than you ever will from reading about them in a psychology class. You're a pseudo intellectual liberal apologist. You have no personal experience with any of the things you pretend to know about.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

This child's concept of personal responsibility may be skewed. You didn't say legal accountability.

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Even if he felt that he was not responsible at all for his actions due to a lack of ethical indoctrination, unless he had a medical, psychological, or similar condition that could be substantiated in court, the legal system would find him responsible for any actions he chose to take. Personal responsibility is recognized as freedom of choice, freedom of action, and the freedom to bear the results of action. You already know this, of course.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Nope. Not suggesting complete removal at all.

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Why do you keep avoiding answering my earlier questions, since you do not suggest a complete removal?

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I understand environmental factors more than you ever will from reading about them in a psychology class. You're a pseudo intellectual liberal apologist. You have no personal experience with any of the things you pretend to know about.

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So living in one neighborhood in one state makes you an expert on environmental factors of criminal behaviors? LOL. Pretty small sample size you got there.

Done responding to you since you're obviously either trolling, or not serious.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

So living in one neighborhood in one state makes you an expert on environmental factors of criminal behaviors? LOL. Pretty small sample size you got there.

Done responding to you since you're obviously either trolling, or not serious.

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I know its possible to overcome environmental factors. You seem to believe that people have no control over their lives and are simply victims of circumstance.

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Originally Posted by David88vert

Why do you keep avoiding answering my earlier questions, since you do not suggest a complete removal?

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Not avoiding anything.

So, you accept that someone has to make guns used in violent crimes, and someone has to sell them.

Suppose for a minute, for simplicities sake, that Smith and Wesson makes all things you can pull a trigger on

The guy running S&W is a good businessman and runs a pretty tight ship, so he makes 500k guns a year, and sells 500k a year. He's always very close on his numbers. Lets assume that 5000 of these make their way into the black market every year.

So what if one year he made 500k guns and people didnt buy any, and he only sold 300k? He's gonna make less guns next year correct?

So, the following year, S&W only makes 300k guns. Since the supply has changed here, do you think more or less guns will make it to the black market?

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Originally Posted by Sinfix_15

I know its possible to overcome environmental factors. You seem to believe that people have no control over their lives and are simply victims of circumstance.

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I'm not saying everyone as a whole. I'm talking about a single factor. Now you've introduced an external pressure. People can overcome bad situations, a dad can come into the picture, the kid could get interested in reading instead of hustling.

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Originally Posted by .blank cd

Not avoiding anything.

So, you accept that someone has to make guns used in violent crimes, and someone has to sell them.

Suppose for a minute, for simplicities sake, that Smith and Wesson makes all things you can pull a trigger on

The guy running S&W is a good businessman and runs a pretty tight ship, so he makes 500k guns a year, and sells 500k a year. He's always very close on his numbers. Lets assume that 5000 of these make their way into the black market every year.

So what if one year he made 500k guns and people didnt buy any, and he only sold 300k? He's gonna make less guns next year correct?

So, the following year, S&W only makes 300k guns. Since the supply has changed here, do you think more or less guns will make it to the black market?

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You are either assuming that he is selling to the black market, or you are not - but you are not making that clear.

No smart business owner would sell weapons on the black market, and risk losing his license and going to prison, so the answer would be - the same amount, the 5000 that you stated. Supply and demand for the black market would not change, as those individuals are not purchasing firearms from the owner. You cannot say that the legal production and consumption of goods regulates the black market - they do not share the same supply and demand. That's not how economics works.