Cant argue with facts, well said sir
OK, I'll try to keep my opinions to a minimum here. I see a lot of people with this "mod" who honestly believe it is functional and "cools better". Anyone who believes this is full of sh*t. Anyone who ever says "well I noticed a difference" is also full of sh*t. This is not my opinion, it's a fact. I'll also try to keep this on the simple side of thins by not getting into crazy detail, formulas or physics. Besides, I'm not a physicist or have taken any fluid dynamics classes. But I'd like to think I have a good general understanding of the basic principals...
Also, ONE VERY IMPORTANT PART OF ALL OF THIS is how INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT IT IS TO RETAIN ANY FACTORY PLASTIC UNDERTRAYS on your car at ALL TIMES.
I've seen too many cars missing such a crucial element to keeping your car running properly.
Let's start with a basic diagram showing airflow over your typical car. This can be applied just about 99% of cars on the road. So unless you have that six-figure supercar, this applies to you.
Here we have a good tool to show basic high and low pressure zones on a car. Some of them are obvious, like at the front bumper where air is "slammed" against the vehicle at a perpendicular angle. This is caused by air stacking up as it searches for the path of least resistance. High pressure is created by air being compressed, squeezed, as it flows over/around/through an object. Just as we have high pressure, we have low pressure. Low pressure is caused by air being decompressed...the term vacuum is a common way to explain low pressure since we all know what that is. So we can see in the picture above how air is compressed at the front of the car at the opening to the heat exchangers (i.e. radiator, a/c condenser, oil cooler etc...).
So how does my radiator work? It's just air moving through the grille and over the engine, right? Yes and no. Because air is compressed in front of the car by both the flat surfaces of the bumper and by the resistance of what is behind the opening, you get a high pressure zone. Keep this in mind- air does not like being compressed. Do you like to try to shove yourself into an elevator with 9 other people that seems like it can only hold 5 people? Same general idea. Since your engine compartment in your average front-engine car is a rather large, open space compared to the opening in the bumper, the air molecules get a chance to slow down and relax....because of low pressure.
So let's go over a simplified version of how your front bumper, heat exchangers, hood, windshield and engine undertray all work together....and why hood risers counteract the system (as in, why they are bad).
Let's analyze this quick picture I made. Ignore the fact the car is modified with aftermarket aerodynamic parts (splitter, canards and wing).
Let me explain some of the elements of this picture first- READ CAREFULLY. Think of your engine compartment as a box- hood on top, firewall on back, inner fenders on the sides, the radiator (heat exchangers) up front and the undertray on the bottom. Clearly it is not a sealed box, and there are opening in this box with very specific functions.
- The RED box represents the firewall at the back of the engine bay.
- The GREEN box represents your VERY IMPORTANT engine undertray.
- The YELLOW box represents your heat exchangers.
- The BLUE box represents the general engine compartment.
- The LIGHT BLUE LINES are representing airflow that is low to the ground and goes UNDER the car.
- The PURPLE LINES represent airflow that will go into the front bumper opening.
- The WHITE BOXES in front of the car represent the boundaries between where air goes under the car, into the bumper opening and over the hood/car.
Take a minute and match each description to its location.
So, with everything functioning normally and working together, air flows over the car, under the car and through the heat exchangers and into the engine compartment. As air impacts the front opening and meets resistance from the heat exchangers, it "stacks up" and creates a high pressure zone. Air does not like to be compressed (high pressure) and will seek out an area where it is not being forced to reside. Since the heat exchangers are designed to allow air to pass through them, it does and enters the engine compartment, which is larger in volume than the area in front of the car. Since the air gets to "relax", so to say, after entering the engine compartment, it becomes a low-pressure zone. This is also because air is only entering the engine compartment through the front opening. The front undertray keeps the air flowing through the heat exchangers and the air flowing under the car separate. What happens here is the air moving under the car is moving much faster than the air in the engine compartment and because of the lack of obstruction under the car, the air flows easily toward the back of the car. Since the undertray extends from the front bumper and past the heat exchangers, the fast moving air under the car creates what is called a "venturi effect" under the engine compartment. This is where the fast moving air more or less "sucks" air out from another area. Since the air moving under the car really isn't compressed, it's not a high-pressure zone, so that air does not want to fill the low-pressure area in the engine compartment and keeps flowing toward the back of the car.
Here is a visual example of this. The blue arrows/lines represent the flow mentioned above.
Now we go back to the first picture posted with the high and low pressure areas depicted. Notice the base of the windshield? See how it's red and orange just like the front of the bumper? Have you figured out now that is is also a high-pressure area? Good! Pretty much all cars have a piece of rubber stripping at the back of the hood over the firewall area. Now can we guess what this does? If you guess "it keeps air from passing through, you have won a pat on the back. Go ahead, take a moment to reach over your shoulder and do it. Or maybe you prever a virtual high-five. In this case, place your hand on the monitor at this time and pretend someone is on the other side doing the same. OK. So what happens if we decide to eliminate this seal that is blocking the high-pressure air from forcing itself into the engine compartment? Well, just that- the high-pressure buildup at the base of the windshield (also known as the cowl area) will migrate to the low-pressure area of the engine compartment.
How is this a problem?
Well, we already have one high-pressure zone feeding the low-pressure zone of the engine compartment. Adding a second "feed" of high-pressure effectively reduces the flow of the other high to low pressure zone because now the low-pressure area of the engine compartment is not as much of a low-pressure zone. This means the air at the opening of the bumper has more resistance to getting through the heat exchangers and into the engine compartment, and finds a lower path of resistance either over or under the car....but NOT through the heat exchangers. Reduced flow over the exchangers means less heat is removed from them.
What does this look like? How about another picture...
Here you can see the high-pressure area in the cowl in RED. Opening a path of least resistance (hood risers) allows the air to move into the engine compartment, when it exits out under the car. Because we are allowing high-pressure into the engine compartment with little resistance (direct path), the opening up front (which has more resistance due to the heat exchangers) becomes less effective. It seems popular belief is that the air moving into the engine compartment from the bumper opening has enough pressure and flow to significantly pressureize the engine bay with air and that opening the back of the hood allows the air to be pushed up and out the back. THIS IS NOT TRUE.
THIS IS A LIE. A MISCONCEPTION. IT DOES NOT WORK LIKE THIS-
So now you know why hood riders are for ricers and making your car look like it was in an accident.
I can only really think of one scenario where someone could "make sense" of the wrong picture posted above. That would be like washing the engine bay and going for a drive and while sitting at a stop and seeing steam/condensation on the lower part of the windshield coming from the engine bay. Or maybe when driving in cold, damp weather and coming to a stop and seeing steam form at the bottom of the windshield on the outside where warm, moist air from the engine bay is contacting the windshield. Either way, this is completely different than when a car is moving. When sitting still, heat rises and is trying to escape out the top of the hood. Since the cowl is generally higher than the front of the hood, heat wants to escape from here the most (while sitting still...mind you). A poor seal along the cowl will make this more noticeable. This is because there is no high and low-pressure areas affecting the car at the time. Furthermore, if the cooling fans come on while sitting still, they do create a slightly higher pressure area in the engine compartment and some air will inevitable come out of the cowl area...mostly because it is hot air and hot air rises.
Here we can see a good example of what happens when a space is created at the cowl of the windshield. You can see the strings being sucked into the cowl area, not blown up and out. Without isolating this air, as in letting in just rush into the engine bay, more pressure is created up front and less air moves through the heat exchangers.
Last edited by Doppelgänger; 01-02-2013 at 01:24 PM.
Cant argue with facts, well said sir
AFA HOLLYWOOD PREMIER LEAGUE EST. 1998
I was going to post something similar, but I think this pretty much covers it.
Err, I've done actual before and after testing on my autox car as well as my 240.
While what you posted is mostly true, you can't speak for all speeds - the way air moves over the car at 35mph vs 100mph is very different.
I've found that cooling was better, and the intake charge was better (my itb's are at the cowl).
If its for looks, then yeah that's dumb.
Originally Posted by Tasuki_Civic
Jerrel...what's been happenin'? Long time no see.
I'm more than happy to hear what you tested and the conditions you were testing in. What cooling do you speak of? What all parts were involved/installed? How did you do your measuring? I'm really always open to learning, listening and a good level debate.
I know there are benefits to sourcing air from the cowl (we're all pretty familiar with cowl induction), but any properly designed setup is going to source air from the cowl and be sealed off from the rest of the engine compartment. It really is a great way to get good, cool air to the intake- when done correctly. Why wouldn't you have a nice plenum or cowl induction box on the ITBs and source air for them without compromising airflow?
General post for the thread:
Yes, I know the world is not a race track, and we don't need race car setups to get around town. But if there was any benefit to it, would you not see it designed into cars in general? I know there are vented hoods out there, and that even some cars have them from the factory, but such parts are in completely different locations on the car and are designed into the car. Much like a lot of the old muscle cars with factory cowl induction- but a look at any of them will show a system where the air from the cowl being used for induction is isolated so its sole purpose is to go to the intake.
As seen here-
above u speak of hood vents, used as induction to intake. how about vents which are just opening on the hood to allow heat out? thanks.
My understanding is those are to move air in and out, meaning air enters the front, goes through the coolers, and exits versus hanging around. I may be wrong, but I thought it was more of an aero thing than cooling especially since many rear mounted engine cars have some type of hood vent up front.
I think they would go along with fender louvers, fender vents, etc.
^ that's what I'm asking about.
Look at those awesome vents!!!
I dont know if I see what you're getting at. All I can see in that picture is the main vent for the HVAC. But I see that the center "vent" is indeed isolated from the engine compartment.
Last edited by Doppelgänger; 12-28-2012 at 09:23 PM.
^^^ I hope you don't feel like a heel, dude, because I was adding to your post, not condescending it. I'm not sure why you got so defensive so quickly, dude. Thought we were better than that.
And to add more, here is another shot of the other vents on top of the car:
But what if you HAVE to use risers
11.1@127- 400whp on baby turbo
12.1@115- All motor H2B Integra
Eh, I guess I was being a bit of a smartass. My apologies, Mike.
With that said, I couldn't really see the vents on the side of the hood you referring to. Do you have pics of the underside of the hood where they are located? What I was getting at about some cars having vents like that, is that things like that are generally placed in areas when airflow is smooth and will create a Venturi effect to help extract air from the engine compartment.
As or vents like what Simon posted, placement of extractor vents is very critical to get just right. I really don't know how much R&D goes into hoods intended for the general street car market. While I doubt they hurt anything, how optimal they are is questionable. Vents like that act similar to what the undertray does to airflow under the car.
Lot of genius on display in the picture of that old CVCCs engine bay. With anything car related, you can usually put yourself on the right path by simply asking the question "what would honda do?" Theyre the world's leading engine manufacturer for a reason. Do you honestly think that some dip shit kid thought of something that honda didnt?? do you really believe that? do you think Honda engineers are reading this thread right now and saying " OMG!!!! an opening in the back of the hood! why we no think of this?!?!?!"
The only thing that matters when it comes to cooling your engine is water and oil.... most specifically, water. Your engine is not air cooled. Reducing your under hood temps to cool your intake charge is about as effective as filling up a swimming pool by pissing in it. The only place you need air to flow is through your radiator. If you want to do more to cool your engine.... get a better radiator or better fan for your radiator. If you want to do even more to cool your engine? better or bigger oil pan or oil cooler. Your engine cools from the inside out....... do you really think some air blowing on the outside of your engine has that great of an effect on it's operating temperature?
On an air cooled engine the push rods are located outside of the engine and the surface area of the head is increased with fins. The emphasis in the design is placed on oil cooling..... from the inside out.................... reducing the surface temperature of your engine has little effect on the inside of it. How cool would the air hitting the outside of your block have to be to have a significant impact on the temperature of your cylinder walls? think about it.
If something so simple to accomplish needed to be done. Honda would do it. Honda is smarter than you.
"The greatest form of inequality is when you try to make unequal things equal"
...what if your engine doesn't fit?
Take a K swapped EF for example. If you don't have the skills or equipment to modify a hood to properly fit, it makes much more sense to cowl the hood than to cut half of it away.
But if we're gonna talk about morons and rag on their cowled hoods; shouldn't we be more focused on the domestic crowd?
Jesus Christ is my Savior
If you have to tilt your hood to fit an engine, you did what you had to do, but i would hope that you acknowledge there is a better way.
Here's an example from the domestic crowd
"The greatest form of inequality is when you try to make unequal things equal"
A cowl hood on a muscle car can serve the purpose of getting air into the carbeurator, that's what I always thought they were for anyway and mentioned above.
Correct Simon, but also notice that even back then, designers knew that the air used from the cowl for induction had to be separated from the engine compartment.
It seems to me, the diagram Sin posted with the 'Vette, the airflow is used to help with reducing lift by putting more are over the top of the car rather than it going out under the car. But now we are getting on a slippery slope of functional, race car aerodynamics- not the original topic of OE designed air flow to keep a street car's cooling system working efficently and how a dumb ricer mod negates what engineers have designed into the car.
The easiest way for me to demonstrate this to you would be if you own an air gun. The picture below of an air gun has 2 holes in it. If you cover those holes with your fingers you will notice that the amount of air that gun puts out is nearly cut in half... then when you remove your fingers from the holes the gun will start blowing at nearly double the rate that it does with them covered. The vortex created inside the barrel is so strong that it sucks air into the holes. Ultimately the goal achieved is that a larger volume of air is moved. Works the same way in a car's hood. If you create a vortex...... whether it be up down or sideways, that vortex will pull the air out of the engine compartment. This is the same reason that intakes are supplied air or moved outside of the engine compartment. "allowing air to escape" disrupts the vortex.
Honda engineers are smarter than you. Everything they do is there for a reason. Under the hood of that CVCC illustrates everything i just tried to explain.
"The greatest form of inequality is when you try to make unequal things equal"
A lot of domestics with big cowl hoods have big intakes. Not always, but most every fast one.
'92 C2500 6.5 Turbo Diesel | '96 240sx
A cowl hood is a "man card" for a car. If yours doesn't have one, you're driving a girly car.
Oops. I'm terrible with names and I'm pretty sure I know you from back in the day...name is very familiar lol . You used to poat on IL too?
Anyway, IATs would obviously go down if you're running open ITBs that are up against the firewall/cowl. I dunno, if I were in a position where I had that kind of setup, I'd want to do something trick like making a nice carbon or aluminum intake that was sealed...much like that scoop/intake for the HVAC system on QD's CVCC or some of the cowl-induction setups [ictured on the first page. But that's just me.
yeah the hood risers look pretty ridiculous. It just doesn't look very uniform on a car and makes it look more ghetto fabulous.
But to honda's engineering. On the TSX, when you pop open the hood. There are a couple of "air flow" plastics from the factory. When i first saw them i was curious if this really made a difference for aerodynamics but apparently they do something and Honda put them there.
It's part number - 8 and 9
Most cars don't have this and i've never really seen them on other cars. The TSX also has a longer lower engine cover than most regular cars I've seen. Prob for aerodynamics as well. Next Caffeine and Octane - i should look for these fender garnishes.
Honda - supplying products of the highest quality at a reasonable cost. Member of the high mileage club.
BODHI - "whats the lowest you will take" then dont even bother posting in this thread! i dont have the time wasting on fuckin dumbfucks who dont know how shit works -- which is me, selling a phone and expecting someone to buy it. At least have some balls to tell me that youre too cheap to buy or say - fuck shoot me a pm if youre too embarrassed
So what site did you copy this from Mike? lol
You know better; next time will be a ban.
None, I wrote it up myself. I sick of seeing this ricer mod and hearing people who swear that it works.
My Starion has a fake hood scoop from the factory. aka "83 hood"
and here's what the under side looks like:
I always wondered why it was there but had no function, the scoop didn't vent into the engine bay or nothing. Turbo II FC RX7's had a nice scoop that was functional, they cooled the top-mount intercooler, so I figured I would gut out the bottom of my hood and try to route that to the inlet of my turbocharger (my ricer idea, lol).
So I asked a super smart friend, he said the same thing, you mess up the natural vacuum the engine compartment needs... that the engineers at Mitsu all factored into the equation. Even small things like the angle that an intercooler is mounted, they think of- crazy huh?
Can't we just compare IAT,OT,WT,EGT readings on a car in these two scenarios: with/without hood? Maybe on an autoX day, gives us something productive to do, lol. I don't think the difference would be significant at all either way, as driving with no hood vs having a hood isn't. So maybe it just comes down to style? I ended up not doing it because the turbine gets hot enough to mess up the hood paint if I remove the heat shield under the hood.
Interesting, curious how serious this issue is on sub 300hp cars, lol. I can see the issue as far as maybe water temps going a bit higher than usual, but what if on a particular car it lowered IAT temperatures at the same time?
I don't know why people are concerned with IATs. If you're measuring IATs and want to decrease them, it's very simple to isolate the intake of the system without compromising airflow. Why would you want to cool the whole engine bay? Same with EGTs. EGTs come from within the engine, cooling the air around the engine will have no bearing on it whatsoever.
OK, so for driving in low-speed traffic/stop and go traffic where the fans are creating all of the needed airflow for the radiator, having no hood or hoodrisers might not matter. I guess it's not a big deal for hardparkers and pussyfooters. You could say on those cars that it doesn't really matter in the end....but what is the point in driving around with missing/misaligned body panels? To "look cool" for the latest fad? Kinda dumb if you ask me. But once you really start moving at higher speed, cooling will be compromised. Sure, with a good radiator and fans, the cooling system could probably keep up, but you're still taxing it and making it work harder. It makes little sense to make such an essential system have to work harder than it already does.
cooling an engine is in the form of oil and water. which flows through the radiator, to keep it at a lower temperature.
is the argument of this thread that there needs to be a vacuum kept inside the engine bay? as long as air is passing through the radiator, the engine will cool fine. i'm not seeing how it's working any harder when the rate of air passing through the radiator (assuming that there is no blockages) is consistent while driving highway speeds.
if i drive a SR'd S13 with a FMIC, and no front bumper, i'm not seeing how it will "hurt" my performance. (engine wise) (of course it's not aerodynamically efficient)
this is speaking for regular/ average joe modded cars.