ATTEN: MR. VTECKIDD

[BABY J]

Found this online when I was looking around. What are your thoughts?

http://www.distributedworks.com/indy...ce/lsvtec.html

[Vteckidd]

Hes wrong everywhere, he has some good basic info, but thats it.

people place to much emphasis on R/S ratio, its 1 out of 100 things that you need to think of. But someone brought it up on HT one time and now everyone thinks its the holy grail of NA engines. you have to have it to make any power, which is simply not ture.

If RS is so bad in an LSVTEC then why do all these LSVTEC an b20vtecs make crazy power an rev to 9500? my 2.0l saw 9500-9800 on the street and over 175 dyn pulls. if thats not proof i dont know what is.

The weak point in LSVTECs is the STOCK RODS, the rod bolts specifically on the stock rods. that is what fails. if you have a BUILT bottom end (eagle rods, carillos, etc) then its no big deal. RS Ratio is 1 piece to a big puzzle.

now, cram a 95mm crank in a stock deck height block, and then ill agree, the RS ratio is horrible, and the rods are too short to rev it out past 8200. Thats why they invented the Dart Tall Deck, so you can run a bigger crank, longer rod to utilize a higher powerband.

[Vteckidd]

and why we are on the subject, anyone klnow what the RS Ratio of an H22 is? cause accordm3s saw 9000 rpms plenty of time and still runs, Bees h22 saw 9500 on his turbo motor.

RS Ratio is something that Endyn stresses alot, and it got blown up from there

[99SI]

I think he's missing the point on quite a few things. I am really too tired to get into too much. Also, his limited scope on what he believes are the "only" camshafts to be running, jun or toda, shows his limited knowledge in the large world of Honda Tuning. I'll put Skunk Pro series or RM M24xx or IPS up against Jun and Toda any day of the week. 95% of people making big numbers using those cams my ass, check Honda Tech and see that number would maybe be 25-35%. In a situation such as Mike's 2.0l motor that was Ls/Vtec he had sleeves which strengthened the cylinder walls, forged rods, forged pistons that allowed him to rev up high without failure. Anybody who knows about LSVTEC knows that you can not rev them up high BUT, because of the increase in stroke you can make more power through the midrange and at the peak, and his suggestion of 6750 is a little low. I would not rev an LSVTEC with stock internals above 7200. With ARP bolts you could go a little higher than that. Also, by his thinking, if Honda didn't do it from the factory, why do anything! Honda didn't put Jun or Toda cams in the cars from the factory so it must not be a good idea to do it! Give me a break, LSVTEC has been around a little while and has been run effectively making good power in many engines, I do not think it is a fad, however it will continue to progress like all Honda setups have.

[99SI]

damn we were typing at the same time. lol. I had a few phone calls and Jill sending me IM's and it took me a few.

[Vteckidd]

its like the Girdle, people think that you have to have a Main Girdle like the GSR to be safe at high RPMs, well the B16 didnt have one (cause of its short stroke) and my 2.0l didnt have one. Its a good thing but not a neccisity.

same with oil squirters.

[BABY J]

I figured you'd like that write-up. I just thought it was interesting. A LOT of people in Colorado run LS/VTEC w/ OEM parts b/c they do not want to pay 1 of the 2 MAJOR Colorado tuners for high-altitude tuning. And I agree that I've seen people cook the motor b/c they think "hey, it's a B series... I can rev it to bajillion RPMs". Good add too 99Si. I'm sure on Monday when a lot of people get to work and see this they will add to it. I am thinkin of an LS/V as a DD after this next swap, so I am doin' a lil homework that's all. Thanx for the info... keep it coming.

[99SI]

you want more info? You don't have the balls to run the MIGHTY LS/VTEC SON!!!!!!!

[BABY J]

LMAO!!! Yes I do, cause I'm not gonna beat up my new baby (motor) everyday. But I will still want something decent for the street. I gotta 65K mile LS block (complete) ready to be picked up in SC for 100$ (buddy). Just wondering if I wanna go there.

[99SI]

LS/VTEC with low compression and nitrous! That's your game there. We need to go see the rednecks and drug dealers this Thursday and watch some down home 1/8th mile drags.

[SLow_POke]

. thats just book word text , theory from what i learn not every text book theory is going to work like it does on paper to real life .






-ernie

[BABY J]

LS/VTEC with low compression and nitrous! That's your game there. We need to go see the rednecks and drug dealers this Thursday and watch some down home 1/8th mile drags.

Well *cough* you know I love the spray! LOL. Funny thing is, I purge more than I spray. Interesting how people don't wanna run when you purge. I think it keeps me "safer" b/c I am running less on the streets. And the people that do NOT back down when I purge usually can offer me a better run. So NOS is a great way to stay outta jail, or a great way to make it WORTH it if you do go cause usually only people w/ some heat refuse to back down. I'm liking this LS/V + 100 wet idea Mike. Not bad for a DD. Hmmmmmmmmm

[Five*Star*]

I would be more concerned with rod angle than piston speed, and rod stroke ratio.


LS blocks are still pretty rev happy in my eyes. If you never detonate, then motors can live through a lot of stuff that ones expect it shouldn't.



Too many novices out there blow up LS/VTECS because they don't know what they are working on.


I sound like a broken record when saying this, but MINE was bone stock and lived through over 8 months of 8500-8800 redlines on a average 100 mile daily city abuse. The next guy who owned it blew it up (actually spun bearing, rods not broken), probably because he liked the 9200 rpm (mugen chip) limiter too much.


I planned on building an H23/Vtec and running it at 9000 rpms if the cams were big enough. It would of course have H-beam rods though, and either honda or forged pistons.

[Five*Star*]

LMAO!!! Yes I do, cause I'm not gonna beat up my new baby (motor) everyday. But I will still want something decent for the street. I gotta 65K mile LS block (complete) ready to be picked up in SC for 100$ (buddy). Just wondering if I wanna go there.

Do it.

[Vteckidd]

it all comes down to opinion, but i would personally never run a stock LS rod past 7800

[Five*Star*]

it all comes down to opinion, but i would personally never run a stock LS rod past 7800

If I could do it all over again, I probably wouldn't. My engine just showed that one lived at those high rpms.

[Ludester]

and why we are on the subject, anyone klnow what the RS Ratio of an H22 is? cause accordm3s saw 9000 rpms plenty of time and still runs, Bees h22 saw 9500 on his turbo motor.

RS Ratio is something that Endyn stresses alot, and it got blown up from there

R/S ratio is approximately ~1.58:1 (this is different for the type-s h22 and the accord euro-r h22 and h23vtec)


Also if what you say about the rods in the b series block then both h and the b have the same things in common. The head can handle 8500rpms easily on the h22 (yes... the stock head); but the crank and rods will fail because they were not balanced for such high rpms.

I also would like to say from reading all these responses, it's understood that this guy is wrong????? There seems to be some truth to what he is saying. I do agree his resources (knowledge) is REALLY limited. Then again I drive h's so what the hell do I know about LS/Vtec

[thebense]

illusional torque that a higher (4.785 or 4.928) final drive offers + b16 > ls/vtec.

[Five*Star*]

but the crank and rods will fail because they were not balanced for such high rpms.

Most all new engines these days are balanced pretty well straight from the factory. Mainly because of better manufacturing.


On a pure race engine, everything needs to be taken into consideration, but on most street motors some things are not as important as others. Like I had been saying above, I would probably be more worried about rod angle, compression, and detonation; over R/S ratio. R/S ratio would be more heavily considered in an engine that lives in the higher rpms all day long.


If piston speed was so import to longivity, then the Formula 1 guys probably would'nt be running their motors as high as 20,000 rpms.

[Five*Star*]

illusional torque that a higher (4.785 or 4.928) final drive offers + b16 > ls/vtec.

Not necessarily true in the real world though. If i had a 4.40 B16 trans and you a 4.7+, then you would be shifting while I was still pulling. A LS/VTEC with 4.40 would walk all over a B16 with 4.7+ gearing. I ran a LS/Vtec with B16 trans and 4.26 final drive. It would out run a bolt-on b16 swap hard. The B16 would be shifting and shifting, while I was just pulling away.


I even ran a co-worker when I worked at Gwinnet Honda. He had a EG with B16, bolt-ons, CTR cams, etc. He said he would take my LS/VTEC EG with stock everything, stock LS tranny, cat-back, and a chipped ecu. He ran a best of 15.0 @ like 94mph, and I ran 14.6 @ 97mph (warm nite at commerce). After that he never talked shit to me again.

[an0therh22]

so would if i ran turbo for my H than would i benefit more from a rebuilt h23/vtec or just a rebuilt h22 with cam and pistons and all that other fun stuff?

[Ludester]

so would if i ran turbo for my H than would i benefit more from a rebuilt h23/vtec or just a rebuilt h22 with cam and pistons and all that other fun stuff?

rebuild the h22. the frankinstein h23vtec (I'm sure in the future when everything gets worked out I'll change my mind on that but as for now thats the way I would go ) won't be as reliable as the rebuilt h22. you can even even bore it out a little to make it a 2.3L or even a 2.44L if your pockets are that deep.

[Ludester]

Most all new engines these days are balanced pretty well straight from the factory. Mainly because of better manufacturing.
On a pure race engine, everything needs to be taken into consideration, but on most street motors some things are not as important as others. Like I had been saying above, I would probably be more worried about rod angle, compression, and detonation; over R/S ratio. R/S ratio would be more heavily considered in an engine that lives in the higher rpms all day long.


If piston speed was so import to longivity, then the Formula 1 guys probably would'nt be running their motors as high as 20,000 rpms.

The bold part: I can't tell if your agreeing or disagreeing with what you quoted from me; or if you were adding to it or not (speaking of a h22 besides the type-s and the euro-r h22 and h23 because those rev to 8k). Everything else I totally agree with what your saying.

[Vteckidd]

IMO, for a turbo car you want the right amount of rev vs liter.

IE, if you want to run a BIG TURBO, then youll want to REV the motor MORE to have more USEABLE POWERBAND.

if you try to turbo say a K24 TSX motor, and slap a GT40R on it, yeah youll make awesome power, the big motor will spool the turbo sooner , but, i would rather have a 2.0L that revs to 9500rpms and has a long drawn out powerband than a car that can only rev to 7000

Ill take RPM over displacement to a point anyday. why do you think everyone does 2.0l NA an turbo motors? because its the perfect balance of RPM/Disp. They are the best breathing motors and very easy to achieve peak VE above 100%. On a bigger motor, VE goes down because you can only cram so much air in the cylinder head.

[toonz]

Good info

[Ludester]

Ill take RPM over displacement to a point anyday. why do you think everyone does 2.0l NA an turbo motors? because its the perfect balance of RPM/Disp. They are the best breathing motors and very easy to achieve peak VE above 100%. On a bigger motor, VE goes down because you can only cram so much air in the cylinder head.

Let me ask you this. I know you like reving high and all but where does gearing fall into that formula? I would think if the gears aren't tall enough then you won't be in your power band long enough anyways right?


For example: (hypothetically speaking) you have a rev happy b16 and I have a gsr b18. Lets say in the b16 first gear = 35mph second gear=62 third gear = 91mph forth gear = 117mph and fifth gets you to 140mph or whatever they top out of.

The b18 first gear 42mph second gear 72mph third gear 105mph fourth gear 128mph and fifth gear take you to 150 or whatever.

Now lets say that both cars are turboed make the same hp and the same torque. With the same weight and similar tranny setups.

Now the b16 revs to 8k and the b18 revs to 8k. Wouldn't the b18 win because the gears are taller? Not because it revs higher?


My point is you don't you have to factor in gearing in your equation somewhere?