Opinions on my article?

[CSquared]

If you guys could provide some constructive criticism on this piece I wrote that would be awesome. I was bored a few nights ago and decided to throw it together. I always thought writing for a car magazine would be an awesome career but I tend to put it in the same category as musician, pro athlete and such... a pipe dream.

You Know Who You Are... (working title)

Pulling up to the light you see the newest stereotypical sports car (the 2012 Mustang GT, for example) inevitably putting out 400hp and containing more technology in the cigarette lighter than every bit of electronics in your 1989 Geo Metro combined. Whether you’re in the early stages of a project pretending you don’t hear that guy next to you revving, or whether you’re sitting on a track monster ready to tear up some asphalt and leave enough smoke behind to suffocate every Prius owner within the 10 mile radius, there’s no denying that auto makers are doing their best to leave old fashioned tuners in the dust. Between overall increasing performance standards for current sports cars, potentially voiding life saving manufacturer warranties and ECU’s that pull timing to defeat the purpose of that shiny new exhaust, manufacturers don’t want you to tune anymore, and they want to make your old project car look like a jalopy too.

So do you fight it? Do you keep pouring money into that “I’ve seen better days” mess sitting in your driveway, or do you give in and buy a factory monster that needs no tuning to make your current ride look like something out of the bargain bin at Walmart? Take that 2012 Mustang GT: $30,000 buys 412hp and 390 lb-ft of torque blistering through the ¼ mile in 13 seconds at 110.6 mph. Not only that, but it also buys an even more amazing piece of paper that says no matter how much you beat on said Mustang (within the realm of reason), that your 412hp is covered by a 5 year/60,000 mile powertrain warranty. Sure, your project may make the same power or even do a better ¼ mile but who pays for the damage when that piston decides that it wants to see the outside world and blows a hole through the side of your motor? Not only that, but how many of those same cars are comfortable enough to commute with on a daily basis even if they do defy logic and somehow stay together with that magical bag of zip ties? It’s no secret that the economy is still questionable and the unemployment rate is still frighteningly high, so logically the old school tuner is bound to go the way of the majestic and graceful dodo bird, Right?

Well, logic and reason may scream “Yes!”, but the fact remains that there are cars on the road today dating as far back as the dawn of the automotive industry that have about as much purpose and performance value as mammary glands on a bull. Speaking unfortunately from experience, your average irrational tuner knows that there are a plethora of cars which are more reliable and outperform that beloved Geo Metro Twin-Turbo with the multi-colored body panels (clearly for aerodynamic reasons), but cars to us are more than just a pile of constantly decomposing sheet metal. I’d venture to say that for the innately irrational among us it all boils down to one simple concept: Love. So, even though you’ve spent 10k on a modest engine build and turbo setup that will probably blow up anyway, and even though that money was more than enough for a down payment on one of those new-fangled rolling computers kids are driving these days (get off my lawn), a connection with a long-time project car or childhood dream car (although now most likely a relic) runs deeper than most logical folks can imagine. In the words of a great beer commercial series, I salute you Mr. “I don’t believe in logic or reason” guy.

DISCLAIMER: Thankfully, no I don’t own said Geo Metro mentioned above.

[Sinfix_15]

Geo metro? why?

also confused to which people you are trying to talk to.... poor teenagers? muscle car guys? trailer parks??? because acting like the modern sports car is some kind of space ship compared to what kids are tuning this days is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YY off base.

These look like out dated horse and buggies to you? Unless you're leaving the lot in a ZR-1 Corvette.... most of the tuner world will rip your newly purchased vehicle a new ass.

[quickdodge®]

I believe he is trying to talk to the auto manufacturer's who are making cars to the point where you really don't have to modify them after purchasing the car. Later, QD.

[Sinfix_15]

I believe he is trying to talk to the auto manufacturer's who are making cars to the point where you really don't have to modify them after purchasing the car. Later, QD.

seems like that is not a new trend.

[CSquared]

Geo metro? why?

also confused to which people you are trying to talk to.... poor teenagers? muscle car guys? trailer parks??? because acting like the modern sports car is some kind of space ship compared to what kids are tuning this days is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YY off base.

These look like out dated horse and buggies to you? Unless you're leaving the lot in a ZR-1 Corvette.... most of the tuner world will rip your newly purchased vehicle a new ass.

Geo Metro was just an arbitrary example I picked of a car that someone could theoretically modify. I don't know why someone would, but I'm sure there's someone out there with a generally bad ass metro. Just to clarify, my actual project car is a 1989 Toyota Supra Turbo so if those cars were horse and buggies to me then mine must be the invention of the wheel.

I would say generally that I am aiming for your average tuner who modifies a car over time as opposed to the folks who pick a car up, throw a ton of money down and offload for a new car every few years. Nor would I say I'm talking about the folks who pick up a new z06 and throw money down for aftermarket parts on top of that. I think this applies to all types of cars be it american, import and so on. Basically whether or not you personally identify with the article is up to you.

[CSquared]

I believe he is trying to talk to the auto manufacturer's who are making cars to the point where you really don't have to modify them after purchasing the car. Later, QD.

Exactly. Essentially manufacturers who build a car that like the mustang that has 400hp with a factory warranty (unless less of course you modify) for 30k. Why even modify this car before the warranty runs out when it is so fun out of the box for such a reasonable price and will beat a majority of the cars you see on a daily basis?

You compare this to your average tuner with say a 240sx (just because it's been the hot car most recently) and how much money do you have to put into that car to make 400hp, be REALISTICALLY RELIABLE and comfortable to drive like the mustang? And it's not just the mustang... I think it's just a rumor at this point but for example I read something about Hyundai potentially putting out a 400+ hp genesis coupe for the next generation.

[CSquared]

seems like that is not a new trend.

Well obviously the auto industry will continue to build bigger and better until we hit some sort of wall (be it a switchover to alternative fuels or something else along those lines), but as time goes on I've got to imagine that it will be harder and harder to keep up performance wise. I know a lot of tuner guys have separate daily drivers but if a freaken hyundai genesis coupe winds up with 400hp in the next few years doesn't it become harder to justify having 2 cars when you can buy one that will do the job of both (be fun to drive as well as being reliable and having a warranty)?

Plus the car pictures in your first post are like the cream of the crop. How many local tuner's cars look like that? And how much money is in each and every one of those builds? Do they still own them? Are they still running?

Believe me I will own my supra until it is wrecked or otherwise. I guess the original inspiration for that article was family and friends chastising me about just buying a new car as opposed to dumping so much money into the supra, but I've heard many of the same conversations take place with friends and their spouses as well as parents, other friends and so on.

[Sinfix_15]

Geo Metro was just an arbitrary example I picked of a car that someone could theoretically modify. I don't know why someone would, but I'm sure there's someone out there with a generally bad ass metro. Just to clarify, my actual project car is a 1989 Toyota Supra Turbo so if those cars were horse and buggies to me then mine must be the invention of the wheel.

I would say generally that I am aiming for your average tuner who modifies a car over time as opposed to the folks who pick a car up, throw a ton of money down and offload for a new car every few years. Nor would I say I'm talking about the folks who pick up a new z06 and throw money down for aftermarket parts on top of that. I think this applies to all types of cars be it american, import and so on. Basically whether or not you personally identify with the article is up to you.

idk, this comparison has been around since the beginning of the automobile...... and the answer has always been the same. Modified car > stock car, in almost every example you could possibly imagine.

For the price of a new mustang, you could build 4 fox bodies that would out perform it.

For the price of a Ferrari enzo, you could build any car you wanted and out run it.

You can put an rx7 up against pretty much any car in the world $ vs $ and the rx7 will probably win.

You would be hard pressed to come up with an example of a stock car that was the fastest option in its price range. for the purpose of performance alone, the cheaper car will almost always win. just answering the basic question put forth in your article, will new cars ever be good enough to not modify or make people stop wanting and modifying old models? the answer is a resounding NO.

[Sinfix_15]

Plus the car pictures in your first post are like the cream of the crop.

This pretty much makes my point. The cars i listed are "CREAM OF THE CROP" probably twice as fast as a new mustang, look just as fresh, you probably would notice little to no quality differences, hell the supra and rx7 probably both have more unique features than a new mustang...... yet..... you could probably have any car i listed for the same price or cheaper than a new mustang....

You know what kind of rx7 30k buys you???!!?!?!??

How many local tuner's cars look like that?

you tell me

[Echonova]

You know what kind of rx7 30k buys you???!!?!?!??

you tell me

Most people can't walk into a bank and get a 30k personal loan, just so they can buy the 15 year old car of their dreams... However they can walk into a dealership with a 510 credit score and leave with a new Mustang. Not that they should... Most people drive a far nicer car(s) than their income "should" allow.

[Sinfix_15]

Most people can't walk into a bank and get a 30k personal loan, just so they can buy the 15 year old car of their dreams... However they can walk into a dealership with a 510 credit score and leave with a new Mustang. Not that they should... Most people drive a far nicer car(s) than their income "should" allow.

i agree, but thats a different argument. Financing is the way most people have cars they cant actually afford. However you manage to acquire $30k, financing, loan, stealing it, finding it.. ect ect...

$30k will buy you an rx7 (or other used car platform ) that will slaughter anything sitting on a dealership show room for $30k.

[quickdodge®]

you tell me

A handful of decent looking RX7's hardly compares to the massive amounts of busted up 240s and Civics you see roaming the streets on a daily basis, too. I put over 2,000 miles per week of asphalt behind me every week and see maybe 1 last generation RX7 in a 2 week span. And it's usually stock. I would need about a half dozen hands to count the Hondas and 240s I see in a day. So I don't think your answer would be a good representation of your disagreement with this aspect of the OPs topic.

I do agree with the statement about financing allowing people that can't afford a nice, go-fast car to get one. Later, QD.

[silversol]

idk, this comparison has been around since the beginning of the automobile...... and the answer has always been the same. Modified car > stock car, in almost every example you could possibly imagine.

For the price of a new mustang, you could build 4 fox bodies that would out perform it.

For the price of a Ferrari enzo, you could build any car you wanted and out run it.

You can put an rx7 up against pretty much any car in the world $ vs $ and the rx7 will probably win.

You would be hard pressed to come up with an example of a stock car that was the fastest option in its price range. for the purpose of performance alone, the cheaper car will almost always win. just answering the basic question put forth in your article, will new cars ever be good enough to not modify or make people stop wanting and modifying old models? the answer is a resounding NO.

A new 5.0 mustang with some minor bolt ons and sticky tires has the ability to run 10's. Plus will have that new car smell and not have 15+ years of abuse.

[Julio]

I would much rather have a car note on a new Mustang over any 240 on the planet...

[CSquared]

Sinfix_15 I really feel like you are missing my whole point... read on please.

A lot of what the guys who have posted above hit the nail right on the head. Again, If you can afford to drop 30k on an rx7 this article is not for you. This article is for the DIY enthusiast who builds their car over time as a labor of love. Nevermind the fact that you STILL don't have a manufacturer warranty with a 30k rx-7 although you are probably baller enough not to care.

I can't even begin to recount how many dudes I know who bought a big money car, dropped big money on it and sold the thing shortly after. In this article I'm talking about the guys who literally LOVE their car, not the ones who play with it like it's a matchbox car and scrap it for another project shortly after. I have no disrespect for those folks, they just don't share my sentiment for a project car which is fine, and really aren't included in what I am saying. The title "You know who you are..." is essentially saying you know if this applies to you or not, which in your case it obviously does not.

The whole financing thing is ENTIRELY relevant to the article... The fact is you can have a BRAND NEW car as ECHO said with a shitty credit score that puts down 400hp reliably and has a warranty unlike this amazing rx7 that apparently defies all logic. Yes for the price of the new mustang you can build 4 fox bodys, or whatever the hell car you want for that matter... but drive those daily, kick the #### out of them on Sunday at autocross a few times a month, then drive them back to work on the following Mondays and let me know how that goes (and who goes out of pocket for the eventual broken parts).

As far as what QD said... Agreed 100%... And on top of that I'll give you a picture of one of my supra meets from 4-5 years ago where we had a crew of 6-7 MK3's which were all quick and clean. Yeah in the picture they are BEAUTIFUL, but how many of them are still running? None. How many are still owned by the same people? I think 2-3. So it's easy to post a picture of a car meet or make sweeping generalizations about how such and such car would be a rocket ship dollar for dollar compared to the mustang. Hell for enough money the Geo Metro mentioned in my article will run 10's.

Do I think people will ever stop modifying? No, absolutely not. But is it funny to stop and think how retarded our love for a car and the general hobby is especially considering the non-existent return on investment? Especially in a time of economic depression? Absolutely.

I don't know if I can be any more clear than that. Please someone else step in if you can.

[Sinfix_15]

A handful of decent looking RX7's hardly compares to the massive amounts of busted up 240s and Civics you see roaming the streets on a daily basis, too. I put over 2,000 miles per week of asphalt behind me every week and see maybe 1 last generation RX7 in a 2 week span. And it's usually stock. I would need about a half dozen hands to count the Hondas and 240s I see in a day. So I don't think your answer would be a good representation of your disagreement with this aspect of the OPs topic.

I do agree with the statement about financing allowing people that can't afford a nice, go-fast car to get one. Later, QD.

I'm just comparing $ vs $, even if you took that busted up $1500 240sx, that gives you $28,500 to fix it. Said 240 would slaughter a new mustang.

If i could afford a new mustang, i would buy one and be happy with it. I cant, but for a fraction of the cost i have a 240sx that will out perform a new mustang easily. I'm a broke young guy with an avg job and money to work with and i can reach the performance of a 2010 mustang with 1/4 of the money spent. If you want a new car and all the things that come with owning a new car, buy a new car....

if you want to look good and go fast, you can do it cheaper with an old platform. rx7 looks good parked beside anything from any generation, so do a lot of other older cheaper cars.

[Sinfix_15]

I would much rather have a car note on a new Mustang over any 240 on the planet...

for the most part i agree... a 240 will never match the class or sophistication of a new mustang. Supra/rx7 can though

i would rather have this than a new mustang

[-EnVus-]

The MPG with the New Mustang isn't to shabby either considering the power they put out compared to that Turbo Civic.
Chicks will flock to the New shinny roaring Mustang Before the Primered Turbo BOV popping Civic.

[Sinfix_15]

The MPG with the New Mustang isn't to shabby either considering the power they put out compared to that Turbo Civic.
Chicks will flock to the New shinny roaring Mustang Before the Primered Turbo BOV popping Civic.

idk why you guys are trying to make this new mustang vs beater civic/240.

Im comparing $30,000 new car to $30,000 used car.

$30,000 used cars look like this........................

[Sinfix_15]

you can get a early 2000s 911 for under $40k.....

Which guy do you think the girl is going to go home with???

[-EnVus-]

idk why you guys are trying to make this new mustang vs beater civic/240.

Im comparing $30,000 new car to $30,000 used car.

$30,000 used cars look like this........................

"USED" is the Key word here id rather have New un-abused my self

[-EnVus-]

you can get a early 2000s 911 for under $40k.....

Which guy do you think the girl is going to go home with???

The guy with the car less likely to need a Triple A call for lol

[Sinfix_15]

here's another car close to the 40k price range.........

[Sinfix_15]

"USED" is the Key word here id rather have New un-abused my self

well, thats pretty much the 1 factor that it boils down too. Do you want a NEW car...... 5 years from now we'll have this conversation again and ill say "id much rather have that 2012 mustang with the money left over to spend on it than X____________"

[CSquared]

If im throwing down 30k for anything it better have an authentic new car smell as opposed to pine tree air freshener to cover up sweaty ass burnt rubber track day smell.

Dude my supra... I'm prob over 10k in on mods but I've had it I think since 03-04. I'm 2j swapped and singled which I will regret posting, but you know that said I make AT LEAST mustang power... No matter what kind of engine build I wind up with when this eventually blows will I ever feel 100% secure on a road trip? Hell to the fucking no. And if you think any of those 30k cars would make me feel the least bit more secure you are crazy. Aftermarket and old shit breaks. The mustang is best of both worlds for 5 years 50k miles.

[Sinfix_15]

If im throwing down 30k for anything it better have an authentic new car smell as opposed to pine tree air freshener to cover up sweaty ass burnt rubber track day smell.

Dude my supra... I'm prob over 10k in on mods but I've had it I think since 03-04. I'm 2j swapped and singled which I will regret posting, but you know that said I make AT LEAST mustang power... No matter what kind of engine build I wind up with when this eventually blows will I ever feel 100% secure on a road trip? Hell to the fucking no. And if you think any of those 30k cars would make me feel the least bit more secure you are crazy. Aftermarket and old shit breaks. The mustang is best of both worlds for 5 years 50k miles.

I'd have a lot more faith in a toyota engine over a ford engine. Warranty doesnt mean it wont break... just means they will fix it if it does. Been a minute since ive owned a Ford, but i dont remember their service department rolling out the red carpet for warranties. Having your car fixed by the dealership isnt exactly an enjoyable experience.

Rx8s come with a 100k warranty.... need i say more. LOLOLOLOLOL

All this talk about new car smell..... they sell interior too..... everything can be replaced with something fresh and new. I'm just not one of those people who like new cars. I know a lot of people that go out and buy new cheap cars just to have something new vs something loaded a few years back.

[CSquared]

I'd have a lot more faith in a toyota engine over a ford engine. Warranty doesnt mean it wont break... just means they will fix it if it does. Been a minute since ive owned a Ford, but i dont remember their service department rolling out the red carpet for warranties. Having your car fixed by the dealership isnt exactly an enjoyable experience.

Rx8s come with a 100k warranty.... need i say more. LOLOLOLOLOL

All this talk about new car smell..... they sell interior too..... everything can be replaced with something fresh and new. I'm just not one of those people who like new cars. I know a lot of people that go out and buy new cheap cars just to have something new vs something loaded a few years back.

lol this post is my official resignation from this argument. Whether or not they give you shit about fixing it, or what their service is like, they still fix it... Also, do you replace all the 15 year old sheet metal that god knows what the previous owner did with it (accidents, drifting, crappy modifications and so on)? I can't see a chassis ever being as fresh or responsive as out of the factory especially if someone was rolling it on some coilovers for example, and that kind of shit 99% of people don't address. I mean seriously you're going to tell me that you wouldn't have wanted to buy any of those cars you pictured earlier directly off the assembly line? I wish I could go back in time to 1989 and buy mine.

[Sinfix_15]

lol this post is my official resignation from this argument. Whether or not they give you shit about fixing it, or what their service is like, they still fix it... Also, do you replace all the 15 year old sheet metal that god knows what the previous owner did with it (accidents, drifting, crappy modifications and so on)? I can't see a chassis ever being as fresh or responsive as out of the factory especially if someone was rolling it on some coilovers for example, and that kind of shit 99% of people don't address. I mean seriously you're going to tell me that you wouldn't have wanted to buy any of those cars you pictured earlier directly off the assembly line? I wish I could go back in time to 1989 and buy mine.

idk man, my last name isnt Kardashian, i have no problem owning something someone else has already owned. It's not 1970 anymore, a used car isnt a mystery box. Carfax shows you if its been wrecked or not.

[Sunkenkarma]

Yeah, Ima agree with sinfix with this one, you can get alot more bang for your buck building your own shit, then going out and paying for an overpriced piece of plastic from a showroom. Plus there are alot better quality out there for less than a new mustang, IE Older Ferrari, Porcshe etc.

[silversol]

idk man, my last name isnt Kardashian, i have no problem owning something someone else has already owned. It's not 1970 anymore, a used car isnt a mystery box. Carfax shows you if its been wrecked or not.

Bullshit!!!!! Carfax does not show everything. It only shows accidents reported. I have seen some very wrecked frame bent drifted into a wall and fixed cars that have a perfect carfax. I guy I knew in highschool tryed to cross a creek in his brand new f150 and sunk it to the seats! After alot of cleaning and drying out the interior. The main damage was the transmission after draining the fluid/ and water out of it and pressure washing the underside of the truck ford replaced the transmission under warenty and he traded it in for another one. You know what it had a perfect carfax!!! Also a theft or a theft recovery does not show up on a carfax!

[silversol]

Also say somthing happens to that 240 your dumbass put 30k into and someone pulls out in front of you and bam its totaled good luck ever getting anywhere near a 30k pay out on insurance! Mean while the guy in the new mustang is on his way to ford to buy a new one!

[-EnVus-]

Also say somthing happens to that 240 your dumbass put 30k into and someone pulls out in front of you and bam its totaled good luck ever getting anywhere near a 30k pay out on insurance! Mean while the guy in the new mustang is on his way to ford to buy a new one!

I'm sure he's one of those who rounds the parts values up in price and assumes its all worth it in resale. A 240 may have a front clip swap and different engine but its still a 240 and will never sell like a Silvia.

[silversol]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qc4Xb7G1ck

Intake/exaust/sticky tires and runs 11s, has all the luxurys of a new car. Not like alot of used cars the dumbass kids have wiretucked/ hacked the suspension and a.c and cruse control to try and run 11's and forget about the peace of mind or a road trip it one of those pieces of shit that the same kid thinks is worth 30k

[Sinfix_15]

typical IA, cant offer an opinion without being attacked personally. Another thread turns into a 240 hate fest.

[Sinfix_15]

You can insure a declared value on any vehicle. When some guys wrecks his 70 Chevelle or 65 Mustang, you think the insurance company hands him the $1200 retail value?

You are all bringing up arguments about the benefits of insurance, warranties, financing.... but ignoring the simple fact that you get more used car for your dollar than you do new car. You can not dispute this.

[quickdodge®]

typical IA, cant offer an opinion without being attacked personally. Another thread turns into a 240 hate fest.

I agree. Let's keep this a civil topic without name calling and bashing, please. Later, QD.

[silversol]

You can insure a declared value on any vehicle. When some guys wrecks his 70 Chevelle or 65 Mustang, you think the insurance company hands him the $1200 retail value?

You are all bringing up arguments about the benefits of insurance, warranties, financing.... but ignoring the simple fact that you get more used car for your dollar than you do new car. You can not dispute this.

I have collector car insurance on my 67 mustang it has been apprased and does not cost very much, Know why? The insurance company is not stupid they know classic car collectors take care of them they dont drive them daily or often I put 1400 miles on my mustang last year. That being said they know 240's are magnets to walls and trees they know they are driven daily and hard mostly by drivers under 21 years of age. they know by the number of claims and by tickets on peoples driving record. Good example it was cheaper almost by half for FULL COVERAGE INSURANCE on a 2004 mustang gt that was 2 years old at the time, then liability only for a 1995 acura integra gsr! That is becase the mustang was a new car at the time and most kids could not afford to drive them and do stupid shit in them to bring the claims percentage up on them unlike the integra where 98% of them have all been wrecked/stolen and other wise fucked up!

[silversol]

Im useing 240 owners as a example im willing to bet 98% of them all have liabilty only insurance no matter how moded they are. Honda owners are the same way. They are broke kids that own them one trip to the wtb forum will tell you that. they all want to buy used shit like tires. I have even seen people on here try to sell used break pads!

[Jdm94Coupe]

Good example it was cheaper almost by half for FULL COVERAGE INSURANCE on a 2004 mustang gt that was 2 years old at the time, then liability only for a 1995 acura integra gsr! That is becase the mustang was a new car at the time and most kids could not afford to drive them and do stupid shit in them to bring the claims percentage up on them unlike the integra where 98% of them have all been wrecked/stolen and other wise fucked up!

I haven't read this full thread. But you do realize that the acura integra is so much more to insure because its much much much much more likely to be stolen then that mustang! Also, the integra holds more value then most mustangs. Look it up, the integra is in the top 10 every year in stolen cars, as is the civic. The mustang is never to be found on that list. It's not because its new and "kids" can't afford them. But if it makes you feel better to say you own a ford mustang then an acura integra suit yourself. But it doesn't make you seem more mature or smarter then others. IMO, looking at the gas prices, i think you look the exact opposite........

[Echonova]