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the whole problem with the statement is that you have to compare the $ spent. You can't build a $10k motor and say "your $5k b swap isnt faster than mine" ........... the point is, it shouldnt be as fast.... money=power=speed ..... the problem with a k is that you have to spend double the money..... no matter how u cut it, used parts or fucking stolen parts, its not cheap! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by 112480
Mike jones, mainstreams prelude, and Jason Wallace all had h23 vtecs with skunk2 cams, header, intake manifold making 220-230whp
most bolt on k20s even with cams barely make over 215 locally. You see how much everyone makes on here.
Ejohnson barely makes 195whp with a $1000 header , rbc , kpro etc. Kizdaway barely makes over 220 ( based on what he said and others said) with bolt ons an cams. You don't see very many people cresting 220whp even with bolt on k series.
The only k20/k24 locally was that jay kid and he had an inline pro motor , stage 3s , ssr header and made 255, not very impressive IMO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
this is true, lol, i realize that now....
When i was building it, i thought i was doing good and at the time was debating if i was going to run boost on the stock block or not, which was going to determine which piston i was going to put in the block. I think its obvious which choice i took..lol...and which im slightly regretting at this point. FI might be the best thing to do with my current block, since im not tearing it down again to put high comp pistons in it.
And all my questioning is for my next build lol, not this one. This one's already behind me as far as im concerned; its been built, put in the car, tuned, and its running. It makes a certain amount of power based on its composure which at the time I overestimated the amount it was going to make, and im slightly disappointed as a result. So here I am, back on the drawing board. :goodjob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 112480
Have you looked at many good h22 dyno's? Tuned right they make killer power if healthy. Shit mine was an old smoking jdm h22a with stock bottom end and cams and bolt ons and I made 215/160. Its not a stretch to say if the engine was in better shape that it could have made better power. It was on crower stage 2's which aren't known for making exceptional power.
Hell I've seen basically more stock engines making this kinda power with I/H/E and a good tune.
post them up if u can and for ur old "smoking" setup that made 215/160....that was WITH CROWER STAGE 2'S!(as u stated) I said show/post up a h22/b series swap WITH JUST I/H/E AND TUNE thats makking 225WHP and 165-175WTQ!Quote:
Originally Posted by Starrfire
Numbers aren't everything
I would take a 200/139 9500rpm type-r setup over a 225/165 k24 7000 rpm car
I've beaten cars with far more hp just based on my shift points
:lmfao: that is all
There are basic rules to getting more hp from a na motor, bigger cam, more cubic inches, ported intake & head, exhaust, more compression, lighter valve train. A motor is just a big air pump the more air you get in and out faster the more hp you will make.:goodjob:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
Oh really......................................... vise versa mike. Just b/c u can hold a gear longer........................http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSjJMw4xXN0:taun:
Luis was k20 8600-8700rpm NOT a k24 like I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by 112480
Also my car with a 4.4fd and 9500 rpms with 20 less whp BARELY lost to a k20 with type r cams, $1000 header, typer trans, typer fd,2.0 vs my 1.8 etc
my $3000 setup ran with his $8000 setup. I wish he would have rematched me with my 4.9 trans I have no doubt I would have pulled him or been dead even, all without making any more power
again numbers aren't everything
Oh and I'm not making excuses, Luis car is faster and beat me and I lost. But for the amount of money it would have cost ME to build HIS car it wast insanely faster than my "old tech" b series motor
I certainly expected a lot more from all the shit talk people said about his car. I'm sire it was blazing fast on the bottle but na it wasn't anything to be scared of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
this is true, im aware that there are many factors that contribute to winning/losing runs, but i didnt make this thread for the discussion of what makes a fast(er) car, i made it for the purpose of what does it take to achieve the goal of no less than 200whp NA, on either a 1.8L or a 2.0L (or 2.2L :ninja: lol), and with a redline of 8,000rpms or less just for reliability's sake.
I know, just playing with ya:D:taun:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
I've just never been impressed with the k series locally for the money spent and power put out. To me it's just something people do to say "I have a K". If all you want is to go fast all motor IMO H2B is the way to go. I would have done it if I could have closed my hood on my crx.
Well if i make 270whp, how will u b impressed by that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
my old setup
gsr block with Ctr pistons .20 over bore
b16 head with supertech valve kit and skunk2 tuner stage3s
made 218whp, 12.4 1/4 miles in a eg bubble revd till 9k on 93 pump gas
Chunky made 243whp sae with a mild k20 with ips k2s. I never drove that k24 but I'm sure it was fast, just compared to other people it seemed like it was missing a few horses, but again numbers aren't everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by 112480
Mike jones h23 makes 25X with stage 2 skunk2 cams, ported head, oem intake manifold, Kidd header and prob cost 1/4 to build than what that inline pro k24 cost.
I wouldn't count your chickens before they hatch. I wouldn't be claiming numbers or hanging onto a huge number, 270whp is not easy to make and is a ton of power. In my experience when you set yourself up and build up to a number that big if you only make 250-260 you're gonna be pissed and dissapointed. Cause in all motor there is no turning the boost up etc. You're also gping to have to eat a lot of crow if it doesn't make huge numbers.
I'd rather underestimate than overestimate. I'd rather speak softly and carry a big stick :p
I hope you make a ton of power 270 is HUGE numbers and you have my header, but just also understand there's other cars out there that might make 220 and run you down.
Numbers aren't everything and debating it back and forth makes us all look like bench racers.
I would never build a k, that's just me. Others would. To each his own
Oh and you don't need me to be impressed , I'm a nobody. As long as YOURE happy is all that matters
real stand up post.:goodjob:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
That i gotta see! Remember mike, been doing this since 97':goodjob:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
You run up on a 220-230whp 1600lb 88crx hf with a 4.9 youll have your hands full.
There's one thing I've learned over the years, power to weight, hp, tq etc can be severely underestimated
that and you can't put a big enough tire under a Honda to guarantee traction past mid 200's
Greg i just think im more of a pessimist, you are an optimist, thats all.
If you make 270 ill be the first to say "gimme a ride".
B series are great motors and reliable but won't make as much horsepower then kseries that's a fact I seen many built b series at 240-260 range, weight makes a huge difference if you make 255hp on a bseries weigh in with you in the car around 1700 that's a 11.0 estimate car... Now kseries are very expensive the swaps can be cheap but to build and the parts prices are up there I seen a stock K20R makes 230hp completely stock other the fuel rail injectors and fpr..hseries are also great motors with minor bolt ons gain hp
Stemming off one of the most intelligent comments out of Vteckidd's mouth, "People who buy custom made headers, are different people than those who buy the knockoff replica/copycat/mass production headers." This point can be expanded into many realms of the car world, and here it's present in the selection of motors for such and such power. But the overwhelming problem people here fail to notice is that everyone here is their own person and has their own ideas and has their own goals. At the end of the day they are going to come up with any and all reasons to justify why they feel the way they feel. So in the case of people's selection of headers, I personally needed and wanted a custom made piece after a fitment issue of a mass produced header and I personally believe in not skimping on price when it comes to building something that I want to last and have "Quality". Yeah, so there are people out there that have paid less than me and gotten just as good, and sometimes "better" results. But you know what? That doesn't matter, I know what I want and I know how I want to do it. Plain and simple. If I have the opportunity and money to do something then that's my call. Simply trying to bash others because they want to achieve a goal differently is almost a complete waste of time.... Because at the end of the day, we will make our own choices and we will do whatever we rationalize to ourselves as the "BEST" option....
This argument is seen in other realms of cars - Such as brands. The cheap and affordable owners always talk about how they can perform and match that of cars X times their price. But does that Porsche owner care that you have a civic that is faster than his car? Most likely not because he still got the Porsche, if he wanted a 12 second civic, that's what he would have done.
Life is all about balancing what you want to do with what you can do. Fact of life. If there is anything the car scene has taught me, is that there is always going to be someone faster, better, stronger, more reliable so just LEARN WHAT YOU LIKE and DO WHAT YOU LOVE regardless of what others try to tell you, and you'll be a lot happier.
And on a side note, I went K series, because I wanted to be different, I wanted to have that WOW factor when someone sees under my hood. I like the technology behind the K series motors, and I like how it is one of the product development forerunners for Honda's engines. Money wasn't an option and so I payed for my cup of tea. TO EACH HIS OWN. And my Barely 195hp K series full weight coupe with A/C was dead even with Chunky's 243hp fully build k20 ep3... So Dyno numbers don't always add up and become the end all be all, because they are a tool used to tune a car to it's full potential. Until you take a car to a track and see that power in use, you're only bench racing.
That was my point, to each his own
your d series was faster than your k series, but you're prob way happier with the k than the d.
I personally am about hp/$ and a k doesn't make sense to me. I never cared about wow factor ( besides my header). I cared about whAt worked and made power for a reasonable amount of money.
People forget I owned the ANR header before anyone else, RMF sent me headers, I had John from hytech sent me a header for free , etc. I owned all the baller headers back in the day when most people had dc sports.
But along the way I became about business and opportunity. Sure quality of hytech is awesome, but rmfs mild steel header was better. Hytechs $1000 header was worse than a $600 header.
Then I was tapped by a company to test the new hytech rreplica header. And this $500 header was just as good as the $1000 custom unit John built from hytech
at that point I became about power, availability, price.
I'd rather own a $400 header that did the same thing as a $1000 header. Others feel differently
doesn't mean the quality of my build was bad or worse
Actually the K series is faster than my Turbo D series setup, on and off the track. Turbo lag was a bitch haha. My point on quality is from my general rule of thumb that in most cases Quality is positively correlated with price.
im just curious, what does your k series run in the 1/4?Quote:
Originally Posted by ejohnson88
I've got a serious D in the works (N/A) - then I'm stepping away from Hondas for a bit... could quite be the last Honda build ever for me.
Lots of good info in here --- and for you younger guys listen up when the experience starts talking. A lot of us older guys have been where you are trying to get to (MANY times over) - doesn't mean we know it all, but just take notes - and add that w/ your own desires. Build what you want - it may be popular, it may not be - but build it and learn from it -- that's what this scene was built on, trial and error. BIGDARE built a 176hp B16 "accidentally" just bc he wanted to still play w/ B16s even when experienced guys were saying "fuck a B16". That's a kool feat no matter who liked it or not. N/A "small" displacement motors is a test of your heart --- when the rollers disappoint it's much easier to part shit out than to tear it apart and try it again. The guys who have heart re-attack - the guys who don't find their way to other chassis' and other ways to make power. But unless it's a BIG POWER power-adder setup, I think REAL N/A enthusiasts have more heart and dedication than any other formats out there although we are all gluttons for punsihment - LOL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BABY J
LOL sooo... cliffs time;
Am i missing anything? lolol
- power-to-weight = HUGE as far as Hondas go
- making big numbers isn't everything
- high-comp is THE way to go ;)
- the k series is not cheap
- H2b = guaranteed over 200whp NA
- the more $$ you spend doesnt mean more power lol
- shorter trannies are bad on the highway but good for being ''faaaast''
KISS
Keep it Simple Stupid
there's enough info out there that people should know by now what to run
cams: skunk2 pro1s for 90% of h or b series
intake manifold: skunk2 or Aebs
header: kiddracing, asp, ssr, skunk2 depends on budget
tune: hondata or Crome
rods: eagle
pistons: je, cp 11-12:1
tb: skunk2
it's real simple to build a setup that makes power
^^ Or get a B18Cx w/ a 75 shot wet and spank up on all of the above --- and still have money left over for Steak-N-Shake.
LOL
AND U SHALL HAVE IT SIR:goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
And how many of those do we have LOCALLY!!:lmfao::lmfao::lmfao:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
There's a few haha that guy in Rome with the h22 crx that was running 11s or close to itQuote:
Originally Posted by 112480
disco monkey
Mike jones
NEMO
Jason Wallace
Luis
chunky
Kyle
there's a few guys out there for you to woop up on. I just meant a kid in a 88hf with minor weight reduction making 220-230 with the right trans will give you a good run
whether that guy is out there or not I don't know but you'll find out I'm sure
Thanx for the list LOL!!:goodjob::goodjob: Saved to my harddrive LOL!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
To the OP my most classic example is this integra mainstream built and a 240sx mainstream tuned.
The 240sx was a stock bottom sr20 with a t3/t4. Mainstream built the manifold, downpipe, and tuned the car. On race gas it made 432whp@23psi
the integra mainstream built had a gt35r, built 2.0l, all kinds of stuff and made 629whp.
One night they both met up and street raced both on race gas both going from a roll. The integra got destroyed by something rediculous like 20 car lengths. I remember the owner calling me saying there was no way the 240 only made 430whp cause he just got waxed.
The difference in that race was a number of things
1)the 240 ran drag radials and was rwd, the integra had 195 street tires
2) the 240 knew how to brake boost , the integra didn't
3) the 240 KNEW his car, knew his powerband , knew where he should start a race at an where to end it. The integra had no clue whether his car got better traction in 3rd at 60mph or 80mph or 40mph
4) a fwd car on street tires is just as fast with 300whp as it is with 1000whp
5)the integra had a long strung out ls tranny that made his already laggy powerband even more laggy
the integra looked at dyno sheets and said "I make 200whp more I can't lose!" he neglected other aspects that cost him a race and made people say tht his 630whp Honda was "slow"
another case where car setup was worth more than a dyno sheet
That whole situation sounds more like driver error and poor race preparation than anything else imoQuote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
It was a case where on paper everything was in the integras favor, hp, rpm, tq, etc
But none of that mattered because the other car was setup better and that driver knew his car. I saw that 240 beat more than a few cars with way more power than him.
Like I said numbers and theories only get you so far.
bump for this thread...dont stop now guys i like the arguments between the k and b/h/d guys
:ninja: