turbo kit price vs power

[EP3sAreFun]

so, i'm looking at Turbo kits for 02-05 civic si...

-Greddy kit 440cc injectors, greddy airinx ay-sb(no idea what that is) and a T517z turbo, and of course greddy e-manage, doesnt come with BOV or intercooler, but its 50 state carb legal. $2400 say 3400 with BOV and intercooler, and it only makes 50hp @ 6.5psi

-Rev-hard kit 440cc injectors SC34 turbo, REv Hard Flash ECu upgrade(raises redline and adjust fuel curve), vortech BOV, TIal 35 mm WG, Spearco intercooler, costs $3300 and makes 75-100hp @ 7psi

-Custom kit, (dont remember the exacts of it) Hondata K pro, a T3 super 60?(i dont much about turbo specifications), injectors and all that. installed for about $5000. was told the kit is good for 350-400 whp @ "?"psi. havent spoken more with the shop on this, but it sounds great, plus it a good shop with a great Rep

i Live in Suwanee and need want the car to pass emissions hincee the greddy sounds great, but why does it make SUCH LITTLE power comapred to other turbo kits? is it the fact that is carb legal?

i'd really like to do the Custom kit through that shop... but dont wanna run into problems passing anything in the future

so is ther anything about emissions i dont know? would i pass emissions with the custom kit? why does the greddy kit make such little power compared to the rev hard and even more miniscule when compared to the custom kit?

[D16Civic]

well, that 50 hp is from just the greddy kit that doesnt have the intercooler, u add that and you will probably gain another 20 or so hp and thats pretty low boost, ur stock internals should be able to handle more boost than 6.5 and it will spool up pretty quick i would assume if its like the older greddy kits.

also, not positive on this, but most likely the rev hard kit comes w/ a bigger turbo that at lower boost levels will make more power, just spool up later and will be able to handle more power, more than ur motor can probably take stock.

now, the custom kit might be good up to that kind of hp, but that rev hard kit which probably comes w/ a t3/t4 would be able to make more than that with the right fuel management such as k-pro. And i doubt ur motor, unless the new k series are just freaken awesome, would be able to handle 350-400 hp on stock internals.

i dont really know a whole lot about the k series, so im not sure on how emissions go, i would think that doing k pro would not allow u to pass emissions since its a stand alone ecu. You would probably be able to just switch back to your original ecu tho and maybe stock injectors like you can do w/ older civics that convert to obd1 ecus and be able to pass.

[EP3sAreFun]

well, that 50 hp is from just the greddy kit that doesnt have the intercooler, u add that and you will probably gain another 20 or so hp and thats pretty low boost, ur stock internals should be able to handle more boost than 6.5 and it will spool up pretty quick i would assume if its like the older greddy kits.

also, not positive on this, but most likely the rev hard kit comes w/ a bigger turbo that at lower boost levels will make more power, just spool up later and will be able to handle more power, more than ur motor can probably take stock.

now, the custom kit might be good up to that kind of hp, but that rev hard kit which probably comes w/ a t3/t4 would be able to make more than that with the right fuel management such as k-pro. And i doubt ur motor, unless the new k series are just freaken awesome, would be able to handle 350-400 hp on stock internals.

i dont really know a whole lot about the k series, so im not sure on how emissions go, i would think that doing k pro would not allow u to pass emissions since its a stand alone ecu. You would probably be able to just switch back to your original ecu tho and maybe stock injectors like you can do w/ older civics that convert to obd1 ecus and be able to pass.

if i bought a boost controller could i easily crank up the greddy kit? I wanna say the older greddy kit were locked into a certain psi or something like that. that upgrading the kti was hard/impoissble without removing the e-manage. can the emanage be re programmed?

[D16Civic]

the old greddy kits were locked, and honestly, i have no idea if the new ones are like that or not, the only way you could re-program it would be to get the code from greddy which i thnk they only give out to pro tuners or something like that and u also lose ur basemap when u do that. The new ones might be different tho.

Of course, K pro is goin to be the best thing you could use for boost, but you definitly have to pay for it.

If this shop ur talking about is really a reputable shop, i think i would listen to what they have to say cuz they are goin to tell you what would be the best thing you could do for your money. 5 grand seems kinda steep, but that might be what is needed for turboing the k series, again, i dont know much about them.

Probably didnt help any w/ that, but i think i would look more into the custom kit and then do lots of research on turboing ur car. I know its been done already so just try to see what other people have done. I know ive been doin so much freaken research on boosting my car, its crazy, but its really helped out.

I cant really help you more than that. Sorry
Im sure someone will come in here and spread some more light on the subject.
My advice would be to just try and be patient and just dont rush into anything. You might regret it later if you do.

[EP3sAreFun]

ofcourse i'd rather spend 3400 instead of 5000 too, i really just want like 250-300whp. which is exactly where the rev hard kit places me at.

my goal is 250whp, not as much as i can get from the engine, maintaining decent MPG and carb legality is always a plus, i think the greddy kit, intercooled places me right at where i wanna be. the rev hard kit was dynoed at 252hp and 231tqe. i assume exhaust and a few other things.

maybe i'll hear from a shop that can make a good kit. i'll probably start getting quotes and prices of stuff from shops once i get the car in my possession

thanks for the info

[Negrodamus]

- greddy airinx ay-sb(no idea what that is)

air filter for the turbo. greddy kits have alot of potential, but with that potential comes sacrifice.....emissons lol. because whats restrictive is the blue box piggyback ecu. once you drop that and go standalone (hondata, ems etc...)you will not be able to pass emissions. but you will be able to bump up the boost, larger capacity fuel injectors and get a real good dyno tune= more than the 50 horses you get outta the box. without a doubt the greddy kit is good for bolt on power but not if you wanna hit BIG numbers. i had the td05-18g kit

[EP3sAreFun]

air filter for the turbo. greddy kits have alot of potential, but with that potential comes sacrifice.....emissons lol. because whats restrictive is the blue box piggyback ecu. once you drop that and go standalone (hondata, ems etc...)you will not be able to pass emissions. but you will be able to bump up the boost, larger capacity fuel injectors and get a real good dyno tune= more than the 50 horses you get outta the box. without a doubt the greddy kit is good for bolt on power but not if you wanna hit BIG numbers. i had the td05-18g kit

did you have an intercooled kit? any idea how much power it added?

like i said being legal and good for daily driving make this difficult for me, not getting a crapload of power

can i up the boost with the blue box of death? or am i stuck at the 6.5 its set at? are the newer kits different than the old ones?

ugh, so many questions, thanks for the asnwers so far

[Supacharge]

you still may not pass emissions with a GReddy kit. i didnt. anyhow. the greddy kit is a smaller turbo, quick spool and still decent power. good for a daily driver. you should have literally no problems out of it. and you dont have to run blue box. it's just a preset fuel curve for the boost. you can drop that, tune it, and make plenty of power (250whp like u say). revhard is a t3/t4 turbo ... something like a 56mm trim turbo. it's gona use the FMU i would imagine. fmu is no good over 9 psi. you'd have to re-tune w/ something else. fmu only jacks fuel pressure up too. bad on gas. if you have a stock motor, there's no need for custom. it would be overkill. if you have any other ?s, PM me. i know EVERYTHING

[EP3sAreFun]

you still may not pass emissions with a GReddy kit. i didnt. anyhow. the greddy kit is a smaller turbo, quick spool and still decent power. good for a daily driver. you should have literally no problems out of it. and you dont have to run blue box. it's just a preset fuel curve for the boost. you can drop that, tune it, and make plenty of power (250whp like u say). revhard is a t3/t4 turbo ... something like a 56mm trim turbo. it's gona use the FMU i would imagine. fmu is no good over 9 psi. you'd have to re-tune w/ something else. fmu only jacks fuel pressure up too. bad on gas. if you have a stock motor, there's no need for custom. it would be overkill. if you have any other ?s, PM me. i know EVERYTHING

what did you do for emissions then? ive never really followed how people with super built cars pass emissions... 9 psi is plenty for me. would i be able to replace the FMU with a piggy back system like the Vafc2 still run 9 psi and make more power/better mpg?

my goal in this car is to make it decently fast but not lower my MPG.. i wanna stress that, not that i dont want to spend money heh

[EP3sAreFun]

it's gona use the FMU i would imagine. fmu is no good over 9 psi. you'd have to re-tune w/ something else. fmu only jacks fuel pressure up too. bad on gas.

the Rev Hard kit actualy uses a Flash ecu upgrade. i assume you mail them your ECU and they clear it and wire a new map and they say reaise red line? seems liek this would be liek basicly the greddy blue box, cept they are rewriting my ecu instead of putting on a new one

[D16Civic]

you still may not pass emissions with a GReddy kit. i didnt. anyhow. the greddy kit is a smaller turbo, quick spool and still decent power. good for a daily driver. you should have literally no problems out of it. and you dont have to run blue box. it's just a preset fuel curve for the boost. you can drop that, tune it, and make plenty of power (250whp like u say). revhard is a t3/t4 turbo ... something like a 56mm trim turbo. it's gona use the FMU i would imagine. fmu is no good over 9 psi. you'd have to re-tune w/ something else. fmu only jacks fuel pressure up too. bad on gas. if you have a stock motor, there's no need for custom. it would be overkill. if you have any other ?s, PM me. i know EVERYTHING

i can see why the greddy kit might not pass, i mean, ur adding larger injectors which i would think would throw a code on ur ecu or something (could be wrong on this). Just because something says its 50 state carb legal really doesnt mean anything unless you live in California where you have to have the carb sticker.

Just curious on something u said supacharge, why would that custom kit be overkill on stock motor, other than the price being high?? I mean, personally i would think that rev hard kit would be overkill w/ the big turbos they come with that a stock motor will never be able to take advantage of, just make u spool up later.

my goal in this car is to make it decently fast but not lower my MPG.. i wanna stress that, not that i dont want to spend money heh

On the highway, ur gas mileage will probably go up, but thru town if ur boosting a lot ur gas mileage will drop. If you can keep urself from boosting all of the time you shouldnt have a problem w/ gas

[Supacharge]

in my state, and im not sure about others, your car is not street legal if the check engine light is on. Greddy kit threw mine on. as far as how i pass now, i have a cat. conv. that i stick on, put the stock injectors and ecu in, and drive it up there an pass it. haha it's a bitch, but it gets it done.

well when i think custom kit, i think what i did. custom 3" downpipe, manifold mix and turbo mix, injectors, etc. nothing that is "one kit". however, i did this to buy the best parts b/c kits dont always offer the best. with custom, you need injectors, something to tune with, dyno time, etc. youre talkin $$$. with a kit, you can usually use stock injectors or they will be provided, as well as some sort of fuel regulator or curve to run the turbo on and keep it rich. i just think that if you go custom, you should go all out on a BUILT motor, and make some real power. as for stock, a "kit" will do fine, and make plenty of power, and be capable of more than the stock motor will ever take.

[Formally...]

Everyone has made some good points. But I need to clear up a few things.

First, the custom kit he is taking about is from us. The reason it is "Custom" is because I can size the turbo to the customers wants, I make all the piping, and I can add accesories if wanted. The price for the kit is $5000 and yea that seems high but it comes with everything INCLUDING K-PRO ($1000) and INSTALLATION ($1000). Add that to the Revhard kit and you are up to $5400 and the turbo is too big.

Next, about emissions. OBDII cars will pass emissions AS LONG AS THERE IS NO CEL. You can have a 1000hp car with the exhaust comming through the hood and you will pass as long as there is no CEL and the OBDII diagnostic port still works. The reason cars that have been converted to OBDI will not pass is because the diagnostic port will no longer read ECU codes. I have had OBDII cars with NO CAT pass emissions.
K-PRO will allow you to pass emissions without having to change anything.

Next, about the gas milage. If you make 300whp it does not matter what fuel management you have (fmu, k-pro, blue box,etc) it takes the same amount of fuel to make that power. That is the AFR. If a car is tunned properly, then you should be able to get the same if not better gas milage as long as you don't boost all the time. Scttydb411 has a 200+whp D-series non-vtec with 440cc injectors and still gets 35-38mpg when he goes on trips.

PM me or Mike if you have any other questions. Later.

[Supacharge]

i have 650s, still get 30 when i keep my foot out of it.

as far as a custom kit, i still dont see 5 grande just in the turbo. that is a bit rediculous to me. broken down with brand new parts:

manifold: 600
turbo: 600
downpipe: 300
injectors: 180
wastegate: 230
I/C piping kit: 350
FMIC: 350
BOV: 250
if you are obdI, tuned chip ~ 400 (and thats shooting high AND with 3bar map)
if you are obdII, conversion to obdI ~ 500 (and 3bar)
wastegate dumptube: 150


so with that, you are at 3360-3460.

im not seeing where the other 1500 is unless you are charging him 1500 to install it. which also, seems high.

i do understand that you custom fabricate all the piping, but it's not a race car. im not saying you are trying to rip him, but it's not necessary for what he'll be doing with it.

replace the tuning w/ kpro instead of the chipped ECU, that adds a total of 500 to the price. so 3800. and granted him shooting high. i know i didnt pay this for my stuff. youre price is about right, just high!

[EP3sAreFun]

yes it was mainstream that i spoke with i just didnt wanna mention their name simply because i wanted it to be about price and the kit. not necessarily the shop.

5k installed is good for what vteckid told me about.

Mainstream check your PM

and thanks for the good info on MPG and emissions

[Formally...]

as far as a custom kit, i still dont see 5 grande just in the turbo. that is a bit rediculous to me. broken down with brand new parts:

manifold: 600
turbo: 600
downpipe: 300
injectors: 180
wastegate: 230
I/C piping kit: 350
FMIC: 350
BOV: 250
if you are obdI, tuned chip ~ 400 (and thats shooting high AND with 3bar map)
if you are obdII, conversion to obdI ~ 500 (and 3bar)
wastegate dumptube: 150


so with that, you are at 3360-3460.

First off you can't convert a "K20" to OBD1. We are not talking about a "B SERIES" You have to run some type of engine management to be reliable.

YOUR KIT.
NO FUEL MANAGEMENT---WTF. I have a $600 manifold and stock injectors.

NO Air filter-$50
NO gauges-$150
NO fuel pump-$100
NO fuel management-at least $500

Install is not as easy as a B-series so yea it will be more.

About doing a full build. First he said he wants 250-300whp. The K20 can make that on a BONE STOCK motor at only 7psi. (I have dyno graphs). Hell we are doing a full build on a K20 and will make 270whp ALL MOTOR. Remember the K-series is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>than the B-series in STOCK FORM.

To DelSolsRfun, you make the call. The kits will do fine and we can install and tune those also (easier on me than the custom kit). However, I believe that you can get the most bang for you buck with the "custom" kit. (ex:reliability, longevity, power, mpg, pass emission, etc) Later.

[Vteckidd]

i have 650s, still get 30 when i keep my foot out of it.

as far as a custom kit, i still dont see 5 grande just in the turbo. that is a bit rediculous to me. broken down with brand new parts:

manifold: 600
turbo: 600
downpipe: 300
injectors: 180
wastegate: 230
I/C piping kit: 350
FMIC: 350
BOV: 250
if you are obdI, tuned chip ~ 400 (and thats shooting high AND with 3bar map)
if you are obdII, conversion to obdI ~ 500 (and 3bar)
wastegate dumptube: 150


so with that, you are at 3360-3460.

im not seeing where the other 1500 is unless you are charging him 1500 to install it. which also, seems high.

i do understand that you custom fabricate all the piping, but it's not a race car. im not saying you are trying to rip him, but it's not necessary for what he'll be doing with it.

replace the tuning w/ kpro instead of the chipped ECU, that adds a total of 500 to the price. so 3800. and granted him shooting high. i know i didnt pay this for my stuff. youre price is about right, just high!

I quoted him $5000 because he has:

so, i'm looking at Turbo kits for 02-05 civic si...

You have a B series, and a B series is not a K series. so your numbers are all wrong.

Hes looking at $3500-4000 for a custom Turbo kit PARTS AND LABOR INSTALLED and $1000 for KPRO.

Its not high, call around and ask what other shops in the atlanta area will cahrge for a custom made turbokit with room to go further. Our kit inlcudes RC injectors, Fuel Pump, ENGINE MANAGEMENT not a FMU, INSTALLATION, BRAND NEW TURBONETICS TURBO with a 1 year warranty, oil lines, manifold, BOV (GREDDY OR HKS, Turbonetics Wastegate, all high end brand new parts. make sure you tell these shops that is what you want in your custom kit. then tell them you want KPRO, also, tell them that you want a before and after dyno and that we put it on our dyno for 30min to make sure the car is driveable when you pick it up and its got safe a.f ratios. find me someone in ATLANTA that is a reputable shop and can beat my quote and i will match it.

I can do 250whp-300whp EASY all day on a k series. but i can do it RELIABLY with engine mangement and with room for him to go to 400whp if he so chooses later on.

[Supacharge]

what he said ........


vteckid, i dont know of any in the ATL, but i know of one like that in charlotte. RLZ ENGINEering, the guys who did my work. sounds like you have a good thing goin down there. keep doin it right.

[Vteckidd]

Here is a breakdown of our D, B and H series Turbo Kits:
Turbonetics Turbo T3-Super60 1 year warranty-$700
Custom Log manifold (Drag Style) Hold up to 300whp-$250
Turbonetics EVO Wastegate-$200
BOV- GREDDY/HKS with Flange-$230
Front Mount Intercooler (custom) -$225
Down Pipe with Flex-$150 (includes O2)
InterCooler Piping with Couplers-$300
DSM 450CC Injectors-$80
OBD1 ECU with Uberdata $180
Walbro 255 Fuel Pump-$90
Conversion Harness-$80
Labor - $1000


Now since he has a K series, he cant simply slap DSMs into it so he wuld have to get RC/Precision injectors which means the price goes up. he also wouldnt need the OBD1 ecu or conversion harness so it kinda balances out. However, the K series kits are much more labor intensive. plus he would need to convert to a return fuel line system whihc the Ks are returnless.

Factor in KPRO and its right at $5000

EDIT: i know Brad very well, and terry from Boostfed, Tbone, all those guys, i also know david Hsu and Donf extremely well. Along with Robert aka Rocket and a host of others. i have been in this game for some time, call RLZ aka Brad and ask him how much for a custom built turbo kit for a K series along with Kpro parts labor installed. i GURANTEE hes higher than my quote.

But im also not as good as Brad

[Supacharge]

brad doesnt do any pricing other than head work and some other fabrication. you'd have to talk to howard about all the tuning/turbo parts

[EP3sAreFun]

I can do 250whp-300whp EASY all day on a k series. but i can do it RELIABLY with engine mangement and with room for him to go to 400whp if he so chooses later on.

thats whats i want. so it sounds like i'll be coming to you guys!