isnt it called heal toe thats how japenese race car drivers shift it takes some skill
isnt it called heal toe thats how japenese race car drivers shift it takes some skill
you give japan too much credit....its done all over the world...Originally Posted by sikfricks
NLS is perfectly safe and fine as long as you hit the gears perfectly. The first time you miss a gear, or let the clutch out a half-second too early, and you've lost a gear, if not the whole gearbox. The problem is that it doesn't actually make you much faster than half-lifting on the throttle to rev-match when your clutch reconnects. Reason why is the jerkiness true NLS causes. If you lift partially, enough to let the rev's start to drop while the clutch engages, you can link up more smoothly. On VERY high-horsepower engines this also helps keep speed up by making sure the tires don't spin in higher gears, something I'm sure Thacker knows plenty about. If you've ever listened to the way cars like Miata Cup cars sound while they're accelerating down straights, there's a soft lift followed by a pickup again as the gears engage, and the car doesn't buck back and forth like you see on some of these brainless kid-racers in civics with nitrous on them pretending to have fast cars. There's a big difference between shifting for minimal shift time and simply keeping your throttle to the floor the whole way down the quarter.
Edit: Heel-Toe is the technique of placing your right side of your foot on the gas pedal with your left side of your foot on the brakes to slow down into a curve that requires a gear change. Since you NEVER want to have the car go in/out of gear during a turn (It upsets the stability of the car and will cause lots of issues with traction at the absolute maximum turning speed), you shift as you slow down approaching the turn. The way you downshift and brake is to use one foot on both right pedals to blip the throttle up right before you let off the clutch. It's also just about the only way to shift and decelerate if you don't have a synchronized gearbox, so every race-built car in the world that has a race gearbox with straight gears almost requires it. The european rally-car drivers were probably the first to start playing with heel-toe ages and ages ago. Regardless, most people on IA that heel-toe probably do it to differentiate us from the masses of people who drive manual transmissions and don't have a clue that you can avoid burning your clutch out on a steep hill or using your parking brake if you just practice with your footwork a bit.
Last edited by Kaiser; 08-02-2008 at 05:54 PM.
lulz, heel toe is for downshifting. i.e using the heel of your foot to rev match the engine to the tranny and the ball of your foot (toe) to apply needed braking force. Its used to keep your engine in a healthy spot of the powerband to blast in and out of a corner with greater entrance and exit speeds
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Heel-toe or heel-and-toe double-declutching is used before entry into a turn while a vehicle is under braking, preparing the transmission to be in the optimal gear to accelerate out of the turn. One benefit of downshifting before entering a turn is to eliminate the jolt to the drivetrain, or any other unwanted dynamics. The jolt will not upset the vehicle as badly when going in a straight line, but the same jolt while turning may upset the vehicle enough to cause loss of control if it occurs after the turn has begun. Another benefit is that "heel-and-toeing" allows you to downshift at the last moment before entering the turn, after you have started braking and the car has slowed, so the engine speed when the lower gear is engaged will not be too high.
As the power band of most rally cars is high in the rev range, this technique can also be used to ensure that engine rpm does not drop below the power band of the car while under braking. If this happened there would be a delay between the driver accelerating after the corner and when the car responds; this is especially true in turbocharged cars. This technique ensures that maximum power can be reached the instant the brake pedal is released and the accelerator fully depressed
read up son
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^^ i tired to heel toe starting on a hill and failed at it. Im not that good at it... yet..
But you sir are right about letting the revs drop when shifting(i do that all the time hehe) I like when passangers go "tim you shift so smooth..." :boobies:
T-durr
why would you heel toe when starting out?^^ i tired to heel toe starting on a hill and failed at it. Im not that good at it... yet..
But you sir are right about letting the revs drop when shifting(i do that all the time hehe) I like when passangers go "tim you shift so smooth..." :boobies:
T-durrYou are only suppose to do it when downshifting...
it isnt the heel toe ur thinking out. i didnt slam the peadels , it was a gental thing. but you would do that to stop your car from rolling backwards and not burn ur clutch when starting... u apparntly didnt read the post above minewhy would you heel toe when starting out?
T-durr
Yeah, I did read it, and if you are any good at driving a stick at all, you don't need your parking break nor will you burn your clutch when starting from on a hill. All it takes is a quick transfer from brake to throttle and knowing where your clutch releases.it isn't the heel toe ur thinking out. i didnt slam the peadels , it was a gental thing. but you would do that to stop your car from rolling backwards and not burn ur clutch when starting... u apparntly didnt read the post above mine
T-durr
If you're on a significant hill (Not just a small hill, but an actual steep incline, think something you'd have to trudge up not just walk easily) no matter what you want to claim about your clutch and engine, a simple transfer with the clutch at engagement point will cause you to roll back and going from dead-idle to trying to climb that hill will burn your clutch, or cause you to stall. You can avoid that by revving the engine without taking your foot off the brake as you disengage the clutch, then just pick up your foot and you'll get a no-roll, no-spin, no-slip start up the hill.
Believe it or not, driving techniques can have multiple uses. You can use the same technique to do a higher RPM launch than idle on a hill without rolling before you release the clutch. Which I guess you could use for street-racing when the road isn't flat like a racetrack. Regardless, assuming that being able to control the brake and the gas with one foot can only be used for downshifting is sortof close-minded, isn't it?
yes you did...^^ i tired to heel toe starting on a hill and failed at it. Im not that good at it... yet..
something else to consider is the stress you put your engine and transmission mounts under.
Epic Foxbody Thread Crew Member #10
It seems that most of the people in this threads talking about NLS drive NA cars... and cars under 500whp.
Honestly, I don't see much of a point NLS'n on a NA car... at all. The main purpose is to reduce transient lag between shifts due to loss of boost from closing the throttle body. Also, the more power your cars, the bigger your turbo probably is... and the bigger the turbo, the harder it is to NLS but also the more beneficial it is. NLS is super easy on low power cars because it takes awhile to travel through your whole rpm range and your tach rises at a consistent range... try NLS'n on a car that goes from 5k to 9k before you can finish blinking and you'll realize it actually is a lot harder than you think.
Moral of the story?... another reason why automatic's are faster in a straight line. =D
www.toyotaofroswell.com
Current: '04 S2000
Past 700whp+ Cars: '03 Z06 | '94 Supra | '03 Evo VIII | Too Many...
I agree with Charles. Everyone is talking like A: its difficult to do on a low power car, and/or B: is going to some how miraculously help you "win" any race.
#1. Straight line racing involves skills that are not measured the same way as any other kind of car racing. It's about getting thru 1320 feet without breaking and first. That's it. How you do that is where the "skill" of the sport comes in. Most, if not all, straight line races are won in the first 60-120 feet (all other things held equal). Missing gears, breaking motors/trannies, and sleeping at the light are all part of that equation. If you have a car that has 100 HP more than the other, then all the "skill" in the world is not going to matter if both of you do your jobs. You can powershift all you want, but if your opponent put 2 cars on you at the start.....you'll need a hellva lot of HP to make that up in a 1000 feet.
#2. A lot of you act like 200 whp in some street car is a lot. It's not. Keep a 1000 HP car under control, that's impressive. Keeping a 200 HP car from wheel hopping and torque steering is no great feat. So stop making yourselves out to be some "great" driver because you merely "launched" a relatively weak street car once or twice. Go launch that car week after week, month after month against people that are your equal.....THEN talk. Until then, anyone can be beat in any street race.....even those that have a big mouth and think they're some kind of "driver" because he slammed a couple of gears.
BTW, Thacker.....if you're such a great "driver".....why is it that you never go to a REAL track where the slip doesn't lie? Are the lights too bright there? Scared of the tree or the print out at the end?I'm getting really tired of hearing all the mouth and credit about you "launching" your car, yet you don't dare go where the playing field is level. Wonder why that is? You think you're the only one that's ever lured a race using a cheater car? Whatever.
Newsflash folks: "Launching" a STREET car using SLICKS is NO GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENT. You rev up the motor, dump the clutch, and shift gears. Give me a break already. Quit making a mountain out of a mole hill. The only reason Thacker is winning is because A: He only picks on people he knows he can beat, B: He only races that play into HIS car's strengths, C: Because he gets so much into everyone's head with mouth that everyone wants to beat him so badly that they make stupid mistakes, and finally D: He has way more in his car than he is telling. It's not rocket science folks. Quit making him into some street racing hero. He's not. All of you that buy into his hype are just a big a fool as he is.
Bet you money that Mr. Super Launch Thacker won't come out to race REAL cars at a REAL track......say......on the 23rd at Commerce where there will be REAL race cars. Anyone wanna bet?
I'm so over this Thacker BS. I know he is getting off on all the attention he is getting. I think I'm just gonna put him on my ignore list....actually, I think everyone should do that. Basicly its like banning him w/o banning himBTW, Thacker.....if you're such a great "driver".....why is it that you never go to a REAL track where the slip doesn't lie? Are the lights too bright there? Scared of the tree or the print out at the end?
Newsflash folks: "Launching" a STREET car using SLICKS is NO GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENT. You rev up the motor, dump the clutch, and shift gears. Give me a break already. Quit making a mountain out of a mole hill. The only reason Thacker is winning is because A: He only picks on people he knows he can beat, B: He only races that play into HIS car's strengths, C: Because he gets so much into everyone's head with mouth that everyone wants to beat him so badly that they make stupid mistakes, and finally D: He has way more in his car than he is telling. It's not rocket science folks. Quit making him into some street racing hero. He's not. All of you that buy into his hype are just a big a fool as he is.
Bet you money that Mr. Super Launch Thacker won't come out to race REAL cars at a REAL track......say......on the 23rd at Commerce where there will be REAL race cars. Anyone wanna bet?
I go to the track plenty. Very few people know my real times on this site and even when I give my "real times" I know exactly what they were but I construe them enough *claim my car is slower* just to throw people off.
BTW, Thacker.....if you're such a great "driver".....why is it that you never go to a REAL track where the slip doesn't lie? Are the lights too bright there? Scared of the tree or the print out at the end?
Newsflash folks: "Launching" a STREET car using SLICKS is NO GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENT. You rev up the motor, dump the clutch, and shift gears. Give me a break already. Quit making a mountain out of a mole hill. The only reason Thacker is winning is because A: He only picks on people he knows he can beat, B: He only races that play into HIS car's strengths, C: Because he gets so much into everyone's head with mouth that everyone wants to beat him so badly that they make stupid mistakes, and finally D: He has way more in his car than he is telling. It's not rocket science folks. Quit making him into some street racing hero. He's not. All of you that buy into his hype are just a big a fool as he is.
Bet you money that Mr. Super Launch Thacker won't come out to race REAL cars at a REAL track......say......on the 23rd at Commerce where there will be REAL race cars. Anyone wanna bet?
I will say that my car was exactly what I said it was when I raced Diesel and Collins.
I hold the intake / exhaust fastest trap & ET for the 05-06 GTO's. Nationwide as confirmed by our LS2GTO website.
I also hold the cam only record *cam only, factory heads, factory weight* in my LS1 camaro for Georgia. Note... this might have been beaten within the past 3 years.. I haven't checked.
As I said... I go to the track plenty. If you honestly think all you have to do is rev a car up and dump it on slicks... well... that is pretty funny.
apparently I go to the track enough to know exactly what my car is capable of. And what do you mean I only call out cars I know I can beat? I call out cars that are a fair race. Both collins and diesel made A LOT more HP then my car at the time of their beatings.
The reason I ran on street tires and beat dieselnuts so bad that night was to prove a point. So guys like you didn't think I was just a good driver on slicks.
Oh... and real racers don't go to the ice rink aka commerce. You won't find me on that track until they actually prep it. Silver dollar hooks better and runs .2-.3 CONSISTENTLY faster then that POS track of commerce.
You go to the track so much, yet not many people know your times???? A: That's an oxymoron, and B: What do you do? Rent out the whole track so that there is not a single person there that can tell on you??? Give me a break.
I don't believe that for a minute.I will say that my car was exactly what I said it was when I raced Diesel and Collins.
Yall are not racing in NASCAR. You know good and well noone is going to tear down your car for inspection. Therefore, you can SAY all you want with pretty good immunity that noone is going to find out what INSIDE your motor, right? Anybody ever checked UNDER your intake to see if there are nitrous lines? Anybody ever flow your heads to find out if they are REALLY stock? Anybody measure your cams to see if they are stock? Not, right? So stop all the lawyer splitting hairs talk with me. It's one thing to sand bag and trash talk, but it's another to take credit for what you don't have. That's my problem with you.
You're a bigger fool than I thought.I hold the intake / exhaust fastest trap & ET for the 05-06 GTO's. Nationwide as confirmed by our LS2GTO website.
You honestly really think that ALL people that race actually go on the internet and post about their times????......
Tell you what.....If you really are the "fastest"
I also hold the cam only record *cam only, factory heads, factory weight* in my LS1 camaro for Georgia. Note... this might have been beaten within the past 3 years.. I haven't checked.
Yes, for a STREET car that is all you have to do. Don't flatter yourself Mr. "Driver".As I said... I go to the track plenty. If you honestly think all you have to do is rev a car up and dump it on slicks... well... that is pretty funny.
I've driven both autos and sticks, fwd and rwd, 2 door and 4 doors, foreign and domestics ON THE TRACK......STREET cars are NOT all that hard to "launch" on SLICKS. That's the whole purpose of SLICKS. Any idiot can launch with SLICKS in a STREET CAR. You don't have some 1000 HP monster. You have a STREET CAR that ACCORDING TO YOU is "stock". Right? So why would it be sooooo hard to launch, especially on SLICKS.
You wanna know what a REAL driver is? Cut a .400 or .500 light on the tree more than once. THAT is a driver. Wheelie your car for the first 60 feet and still keep control of your car with your foot thru the floor the whole time. THAT is a driver. Brake an axle at triple digit speeds on the big end of the track and STAY OFF THE WALL. THAT is a driver. Blow a motor half way down the track and still keep the car from fish tailing into the wall. THAT is a driver.
YOU "launching" your "stock" GTO on some dark street road behind some warehouse while on SLICKS......does NOT a "driver" make.
Like I said, bring your monkey a$$ to Commerce on the 23rd and run REAL cars on a track. Where the light doesn't give YOU the "jump" and the time slips don't lie. Bring all the "driving" prowess for everyone to SEE. Matter of fact....bring out that busted a$$ Camaro you always brag about. I got a handful of cars that will be there that night that will put it back on the trailer with the quickness. You brag so much about it. Then bring it and shut everybody up. Watch how many excuses pop up now.
Really? Is that why YOU said yourself that "I knew that I'd beat them...."? So which is it? Fair race or "you knew you would beat them"? Flip flopper. You any relation to John Kerry or Obama?And what do you mean I only call out cars I know I can beat? I call out cars that are a fair race. Both collins and diesel made A LOT more HP then my car at the time of their beatings.
Why? Just WHO prepped the empty warehouse public road you STREET race on???The reason I ran on street tires and beat dieselnuts so bad that night was to prove a point. So guys like you didn't think I was just a good driver on slicks.
Oh... and real racers don't go to the ice rink aka commerce. You won't find me on that track until they actually prep it. Silver dollar hooks better and runs .2-.3 CONSISTENTLY faster then that POS track of commerce.
So you will street race on a public road that has only the rubber you and your buddies put down every other weekend instead of going to a real track that ONLY has fresh rubber put on every week from cars racing on them?????? Hmmmm, a genius you are....says Yoda.
Come on, tell me just WHO super prepped the road you raced Collins or Diesel on???? What's the excuse now?
Sounds to me like you're more scared of a time slip that doesn't stroke your ego like you'd like.
Whatever dude. You're a hero in your own mind. Good job.
You are really missing the point of my response.. but that's ok.
My GTO's far from the fastest in the country. However, it is the fastest GTO when the only mods are intake / exhaust. There might be some joe smo out there that has done a faster time... but most of the guys serious about it do visit the internet and post up about it.
I am not taking my street car daily driver to the track often. I went on ONE night to get a time for my car. I have a total of 5 passes in the GTO and I made my best pass on the second run of that night.
My camaro is slow... and if I did drive it anywhere it wouldn't be on the trailer.
I don't race to have the "fastest car around" I race to maximise the potential of the mods that I do. My camaro is still running the factory heads. I liked racing it to see how fast I could get it with minimal mods. It went 11.6 @ 117 @ 3550 raceweight with only 376 rwhp. Consequently that was the Georgia CAM ONLY record for ALL LS1 cars. That includes c5 vettes, Ls1 GTO's and LS1 Camaros / Trans Ams.
lol i was just messing around when i did it goodness... but it was kinda spur of moment idea i tired and failed at....
T-durr
i agree with charles as well. NLS in an NA car doesn't do too much for ya with such a small power band. as for me, "quick shifting" works just fine. im also not a drag racer either.
Thacker, may i point out that a tune/chip that isn't stock on a car is called a mod and a tune and/or chips is not counted as part of exhaust/intake.
That is all
T-durr
Nit picky sum *****.
T-durr
Why can't we all just get along! Power shifting....haha I've never been in a race that was so close that "power shifting" could've changed the outcome. If you are that anal about .1 sec then go put a wing on your car for 50whp.
Thacker I am sorry to inform you I know a friend of mine personally put down a 11.4 with a cam and drag radials with an automatic and LS1 powered camaro....so that record is pointless...and have video if needed. I don't understand how you think Dieselnuts and Collins was a "fair race." Your suspension and drivetrain mods make you faster without raising your horsepower level. I'll explain it to you as simple as I can. Having these mods means you can't claim to be stock, basically stock, intake/exhaust, be truthful. This is something that my parents told me when I was around 3-4 years old,"half truths are still whole lies." I personally feel that DieselNuts could take you from a roll leaving you looking stupid...not that this is a hard thing to accomplish due to your unbelievable talent of doing it yourself....but from a dig you will win due to your purchase of aforementioned modifications. Regardless of your thoughts on roll racing I think it would be a gentlemanly gesture and I think you would gain more respect if you did. All I want from you Thacker is think before you speak and/or type. Its not difficult...I promise.
The moral of the story Thacker is that you lack the one thing that a true car guy, street racer, gentleman, and human being has....respect....you don't know how to give it and you are incapable of getting it. I feel really sad for you.
What "drivetrain mods" do I have that make up for the 40 RWHP advantage both of those cars have on me?
I have a SHIFTER. And a pair of drag bags to keep my car from wheel hopping.
Both dieselnuts and collins both had an aftermarket shifter also.
And good for your friend. I haven't checked on the record in a long time but @ 11.4 he still doesn't hold it. My car has been faster than the 11.6 still "cam only" the only difference is it has a solid forged bottom end thats ready for the big shot of giggle juice. I don't claim that record anymore for that reason.. and to be honest it really doesn't matter to me.
BTW. Dieselnuts car would be lucky to trap 109-111 with his power level... something I was able to geto ut of my car completely bone stock. He would get pulled from a roll no matter what and when he mans up to the race we will prove that.
WTF are you talking about "when I man up"? You are the one that is scared to run me w/o nitrous. How about you man up and run me with the same setup as last time?
well?
I do have to say that is some pretty good shifting, looks like the rpm's are dropping about 1k or so rpm's each gear...helps to have torque with a larger flywheel! I'd be real curious to see a data log to showing what percentage the throttle lift is.
With my little 8,700rpm 1.8L and a 55% lighter flywheel I drop 2k rpm's from 1st to 2nd then about 1k each gear after that. If I had the closer ratio ITR gearing it would barely drop at all.
2 year old vid...
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...eoid=18422764#
thats power shifting?
~disappointment~
lol @ myspace comments on that vid... ppl are dumb.
T-durr
Actually it is more harmful to your transmission and drivetrain to "granny shift" a car under acceleration, than power shifting. When you "granny shift", it creates slack in the drivetrain components, and then the initial shock of the acceleration puts stress on componets. Think of it like this.....you take two bricks and mash them together as hard as you can, and then take those bricks and smash them together. Tell me which does the most damage? And no, it isn't hard to learn how to power shift in a slow car, but get behind the wheel of something with a little power and it will change.
~THE SUSPENSE IS KILLING ME~
LS2 super stockWhat isn't allowed:headers, aftermarket torque converters. No gear lower then 3.46.
What is allowed: Tuning, exhaust mods after manifolds, underdrive pulley, shifters, ported intake manifold, drag radials, CAI, Throttle body,
1) Lord Vador 12.52 @ 111.091 MPH removed MAF screen, no mufflers, air bags, DRs
2) Slow Sho 12.54 @ 111.74 Catback, Nitto's
3) 8100hammer [email protected] A4 tune only
4) 05 Red Tomcat [email protected] preadator tune,nittos ,slp loudmouth II
5) fjpelkey2001 12.700 @ 116.334 MPH K&N drop in, catback, stock tires, gutted cats
6) hellhammer 12.76 @ 108.5 MPH headlight removed and DRs
7) Phutty2000 12.79@ 109 CAI, Super 40's, Predator, and DR's
8) Joe6pt0 12.807 @ 107.94 MPH borla cb, tune
9) speedracer33 [email protected] P&P TB, Ported Intake, Nitto DR, Tune
10) ironmancan 12.837 @ 108.60 Ripshift, Nittos, Drag bags
11) 05GTOM6 12.838 @ 108.31 MPH - MTs, CAI
12) SloNlo_350 12.870 @ 109.51 MPH RWTD dyno tune
13) Vhaulin 12.90 @ 107 tune, DRs
14) '91 formula [email protected] volant cai, MAF descreened, tune
15) TJT 12.916 @ 107.1 mph GMM ripshift, magnaflow cb, nittos, drag bags
16) spicered06 12.93@ 107.7 Ripshift, KN drop in, drag bags.
17) SS44 13.01 @ 105.27 Tune, Nittos
Thacker I dont see you on there
I kept my times off that site for a reason... mostly due to the racing I had coming up on this site and I knew collins visited that site.LS2 super stockWhat isn't allowed:headers, aftermarket torque converters. No gear lower then 3.46.
What is allowed: Tuning, exhaust mods after manifolds, underdrive pulley, shifters, ported intake manifold, drag radials, CAI, Throttle body,
1) Lord Vador 12.52 @ 111.091 MPH removed MAF screen, no mufflers, air bags, DRs
2) Slow Sho 12.54 @ 111.74 Catback, Nitto's
3) 8100hammer [email protected] A4 tune only
4) 05 Red Tomcat [email protected] preadator tune,nittos ,slp loudmouth II
5) fjpelkey2001 12.700 @ 116.334 MPH K&N drop in, catback, stock tires, gutted cats
6) hellhammer 12.76 @ 108.5 MPH headlight removed and DRs
7) Phutty2000 12.79@ 109 CAI, Super 40's, Predator, and DR's
8) Joe6pt0 12.807 @ 107.94 MPH borla cb, tune
9) speedracer33 [email protected] P&P TB, Ported Intake, Nitto DR, Tune
10) ironmancan 12.837 @ 108.60 Ripshift, Nittos, Drag bags
11) 05GTOM6 12.838 @ 108.31 MPH - MTs, CAI
12) SloNlo_350 12.870 @ 109.51 MPH RWTD dyno tune
13) Vhaulin 12.90 @ 107 tune, DRs
14) '91 formula [email protected] volant cai, MAF descreened, tune
15) TJT 12.916 @ 107.1 mph GMM ripshift, magnaflow cb, nittos, drag bags
16) spicered06 12.93@ 107.7 Ripshift, KN drop in, drag bags.
17) SS44 13.01 @ 105.27 Tune, Nittos
Thacker I dont see you on there
I did post my 12.79 @ 109 run the first time at the track. They didn't put it up on their list though.
Do a search for it.
^^ lol pwnt
T-durr
No, I realize you did post up a thread with your runs and stuff, I just found it funny you claimed "fastest" in that class, yet you would rank around what, 5th?
I ran the "5th" fastest time the first time I ever took the track to the car. I went back in cooler weather about a month later and dropped the 60 ft .22
I won't post up my times or my trap speed... but with the exact same setup I am ahead of that record by over .1 - .15 in the 1/4th.
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