We are officially screwed

[StreetHazard]

How will higher insurance premiums, higher taxes, lower quality of care, more govt intrusion, and less access to health care benefit me for the better?

are you unemployed without insurance? your political cohort preferredduck is and with millions of other people just like him, and with health problems to boot. Why don't you just let them continue wallowing in the financial squaller he has outlined above and not care at all about his plight. His situation could easily happen to any of us.

And some of what you described above is purely speculation, if it cannot just be better defined as just your "opinion" and you are just attempting to predict what has not happened yet.

And why are you actually arguing FOR the medical companies?

what

the

fuck?

[Vteckidd]

How will higher insurance premiums, higher taxes, lower quality of care, more govt intrusion, and less access to health care benefit me for the better?

Huckabee actually had a good point about it last night. The back end of the law people dont realize is yes its great to now cover people with pre-existing conditions. The problem is those people pay higher rates are were deemed "uninsurable" for a reason.

this plan basically is like you wrecking your car, then calling insurance the next day and saying "i need insurance now i wrecked my car yesterday" , the govt will require them to give it to you and then pay for it.

Its like calling your home insurance company and saying you want to add fire protection because your house burned down last week.

Its like calling a life insurance company and taking out a policy on your spouse that died last week.

That will be what the insurance companies will be forced to have to pay for. In that context it is WRONG. We should be able to cover people with pre-existing conditions, but you have to understand that someone who smokes 10 packs a day with a history of cancer is going to pay more in insurance than someone who doesnt smoke, and has a healthy history. When did that become wrong?

[StreetHazard]

^ good for you!

[JITB]

i like reading this forums nothing ever works!

[Vteckidd]

We have our opinions, I won't hold it against you (seriously) just like I expect you wouldn't hold my philosophies against me. It gets heated in here and we all want the same thing, the best for our fellow citizens and ourselves.

If you don't know as much as you think you should that's fine Tony knows a lot more about wallstreet and David88vert knows way more specifics than I do.

tHis is why I like this forum it's something I think congress lacks right now..........exchanging of ideas. Even though we don't agree we can still debate a topic.

For me, only this view I have works mathmatically in my mind. I get the "providing for your fellow citizen" argument. But I think it is at the expense of of our fellow citizens when it will most likely cost them their job, pay raise, etc. I also understand that to have a truly thriving society you have to have entrepeneurs and people that risk it all and fail , pick themselves back up and try again. You have to have rich and poor, because any other type of society has failed.

It's tough to balance it all but I think we can do better

that's just me

[Terror]

Wow, well... thank you Vteckidd and Banginjimmy... thats a lot of good information.

From what Ive gathered I think its a good idea to a degree but maybe executed the wrong way... But I may have a personal bias I have a sister with a very serious illness and without her insurance being legally required to cover it (they searched to find a way out of it) my family would have went bankrupt attempting to foot the bill.

What would have probably happened is we wouldnt have been able to cover her almost 1 mil. dollar surgery and she wouldnt have been able to make her full recovery to live her life. I think this is one of the "executive" decisions that some people of power have to make sometimes that we may not like but may see good in after some time.

[BanginJimmy]

As I have said before, there are several parts of the bill I do like, but as you said, it was done the wrong way. I like the language that says you can stay on your parents policy until age 26, but limits it to only those that are unemployed or their employer doesnt offer medical benefits. I like the bans on yearly and lifetime caps on coverage. I like that you cannot be dropped for a pre-existing condition, but I think that that provision needs to be limited to those that disclose any conditions. If you purposely fail to disclose a condition, that counts as insurance fraud in my book.

The problem I have with the bill is that it does absolutely nothing to bend the cost curve down. If anything it will bend it up. Additional taxes on insurance companies mean a rise in rates. An additional tax on medical device companies means rates go UP. A rise in taxes on pharmaceuticals means rates go UP. Adding huge amounts of additional risk with no way to charge those with high risk means rates go UP. Reduced payments to docs from medicare and medicaid mean rates go UP. I honestly cannot think of anything in this bill that will bring rates down.

[MachNU]

Just wanted to add this...for those that said that the Healthcare bill would lower premiums for health insurance and we told you it would not. Guess what it did not. Got my bill for my health/dental/vison insurance next month and guess what it went up $13 a month. Now luckly for my business its just me, but if I had 10 employee's that would be a pretty big amount per month... $130 more a month to spend or an additional $1560 a year. Now might not be that much, but it went up rather than down.

[The Creeper]

This will get taken advantage of and raped just like welfare.

[Total_Blender]

When have insurance premiums ever gone down though? Seems like every year I've been working the costs have gone up and the coverage has gone down. Less people are employed meaning less people have insurance. The size of the pool, and therefore the profit margin, is shrinking.

The only real parts of the bill that have gone into effect as of right now are as follows:

Effective September 23, 2010

* Insurance companies will be prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays in new policies issued.[41]
* Dependents (children) will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday,[42] and regulations implemented under the Act include dependents that no longer live with their parents, are not a dependent on a parent’s tax return, are no longer a student, or are married.[43][44]
* Insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19.[45][46]
* Insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans.[47]
* Individuals affected by the Medicare Part D coverage gap will receive a $250 rebate, and 50% of the gap will be eliminated in 2011.[48] The gap will be eliminated by 2020.
* Insurers' abilities to enforce annual spending caps will be restricted, and completely prohibited by 2014.[31]
* Insurers are prohibited from dropping policyholders when they get sick.[31]
* Insurers are required to reveal details about administrative and executive expenditures.[31]
* Insurers are required to implement an appeals process for coverage determination and claims on all new plans.[31]
* Indoor tanning services are subjected to a 10% service tax.[31]
* Enhanced methods of fraud detection are implemented.[31]
* Medicare is expanded to small, rural hospitals and facilities.[31]
* Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored/evaluated on a 3 month basis for coverage of the medications for treatment of such illnesses.
* Non-profit Blue Cross insurers are required to maintain a loss ratio (money spent on procedures over money incoming) of 85% or higher to take advantage of IRS tax benefits.[31]
* Companies which provide early retiree benefits for individuals aged 55–64 are eligible to participate in a temporary program which reduces premium costs.[31]
* A new website installed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services will provide consumer insurance information for individuals and small businesses in all states.[31]
* A temporary credit program is established to encourage private investment in new therapies for disease treatment and prevention.[31]

The mandate and the exchanges won't be here until 2014. Those are the two biggest parts of the legislation.

[BanginJimmy]

When have insurance premiums ever gone down though? Seems like every year I've been working the costs have gone up and the coverage has gone down. Less people are employed meaning less people have insurance. The size of the pool, and therefore the profit margin, is shrinking.

Agreed. Premiums will never go down unless the cost curve to insurers is pushed down. Increasing taxes on insurers and providers will do the exact opposite.

The only real parts of the bill that have gone into effect as of right now are as follows:

Effective September 23, 2010

* Insurance companies will be prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays in new policies issued.[41]
* Dependents (children) will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday,[42] and regulations implemented under the Act include dependents that no longer live with their parents, are not a dependent on a parent’s tax return, are no longer a student, or are married.[43][44]
* Insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19.[45][46]
* Insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans.[47]
* Individuals affected by the Medicare Part D coverage gap will receive a $250 rebate, and 50% of the gap will be eliminated in 2011.[48] The gap will be eliminated by 2020.
* Insurers' abilities to enforce annual spending caps will be restricted, and completely prohibited by 2014.[31]
* Insurers are prohibited from dropping policyholders when they get sick.[31]
* Insurers are required to reveal details about administrative and executive expenditures.[31]
* Insurers are required to implement an appeals process for coverage determination and claims on all new plans.[31]
* Indoor tanning services are subjected to a 10% service tax.[31]
* Enhanced methods of fraud detection are implemented.[31]
* Medicare is expanded to small, rural hospitals and facilities.[31]
* Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored/evaluated on a 3 month basis for coverage of the medications for treatment of such illnesses.
* Non-profit Blue Cross insurers are required to maintain a loss ratio (money spent on procedures over money incoming) of 85% or higher to take advantage of IRS tax benefits.[31]
* Companies which provide early retiree benefits for individuals aged 55–64 are eligible to participate in a temporary program which reduces premium costs.[31]
* A new website installed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services will provide consumer insurance information for individuals and small businesses in all states.[31]
* A temporary credit program is established to encourage private investment in new therapies for disease treatment and prevention.[31]

I am a fan of many of these things which is why I am against an strait up repeal without something to take its place. Something FAR less expensive and FAR less intrusive. Your third point is the one I was talking about. The largest providers are no longer writing those policies.

The mandate and the exchanges won't be here until 2014. Those are the two biggest parts of the legislation.

You are correct. They are also the most expensive and will cost a couple hundred billion a year, never mind the constitutional questions of the mandate. I could even live with those things if there was any chance they would lower costs, or even level them out, without eroding the level of care. We all know that this bill will not do that though.

[blaknoize]

No employer, in any state, is required to give benefits to anyone. That is why it is called a benefit. GA laws do benefit employers, and I am in full agreement with that. The employer owns that job, not the person currently occupying it. If an employer does not want someone in the job they hold, they should be able to fire them.

The employer or businessman does not own that job. Maybe when he/she first started it and were part of every aspect of that company they are growing, but they are not the sole "owners" of whatever role you play. It may be labeled as a "benefit" but without you doing your "job" the business wouldn't function. Especially if all of US arent performing our functions for the business, then it wouldnt even exist as such a large corporation.

The job of a business is to create profit. Without profit there is no expansion of the business. Without expansion there are no new employees. What good is a business that only makes enough to survive?

The same holds true from a personal perspective. Being raised in Southern Ohio I had the wonderful experience of just surviving. If you as a person and yall as a company are growing, why not treat the personnel as actual people, like Google or Apple? They are surely growing (not actually sure about Apple anymore) and many many many people wish they could work for a company that treats a person like a person and not an expendable number. "Benefits" breaks, wonderful working environment, great pay. They are a group of happy, well taken care of and amazing employees that "want" to keep their business growing. The business itself isn't growing without the help of its people, no pay cuts are needed and no outsourcing is needed because the employees generate that income for that business.

People are given more than enough help in this country. In this country, poverty is a choice you make, it is not a predetermined status.

Poverty is NOT a choice. I just so happen to be raised in an impoverished area. I didnt CHOSE to make $5.15 an hr and just make it by from paycheck to paycheck. Get the fuk outta here with that. I also didnt CHOSE to be educated in the failing school system of Southern Ohio. I even moved, on a thought to Atlanta to find a better area to try and work and made it no better for myself.

Also a very good example is my friend DJ who currently resides in Southern Ohio (Portsmouth, OH) he works 3 jobs (1 day on Sunday at Church which is $100 for organ playing) part-time at Hillview Retirement Homes making 7.10 an hr and part time at Lil Caesar's making 7.45 an hour working 55hrs a week. Strapped with College debt of 34k (dropped out, or failed out due to transportation issues) and can barely make his payments after paying for fuel, partial rent/utilities, driving a 1996 Toyota Camry with 268k on it. He was born in Akron, OH, raised in Portsmouth, OH and he is still currently trying to make it better for himself. Doesnt make enough to successfully move, doesnt have the education he needs to push his career along (in whatever he desires) although he has been trying and trying for the past 3yrs to get out of Portsmouth. You tell him that he decided he wants to be in poverty and wanted to remain there!

[nelson9995]

I agree with you for the most part BlakNoize

[BanginJimmy]

The employer or businessman does not own that job. Maybe when he/she first started it and were part of every aspect of that company they are growing, but they are not the sole "owners" of whatever role you play. It may be labeled as a "benefit" but without you doing your "job" the business wouldn't function. Especially if all of US arent performing our functions for the business, then it wouldnt even exist as such a large corporation.

So if the employer doesnt own the job, who does? Just because he long longer performs the job doesnt mean that the job is no longer his to control. That control also extends to who currently does the job.

The same holds true from a personal perspective. Being raised in Southern Ohio I had the wonderful experience of just surviving. If you as a person and yall as a company are growing, why not treat the personnel as actual people, like Google or Apple? They are surely growing (not actually sure about Apple anymore) and many many many people wish they could work for a company that treats a person like a person and not an expendable number. "Benefits" breaks, wonderful working environment, great pay. They are a group of happy, well taken care of and amazing employees that "want" to keep their business growing. The business itself isn't growing without the help of its people, no pay cuts are needed and no outsourcing is needed because the employees generate that income for that business.

I've been in the same places growing up on the southside of chicago. Dead end job, no desire, or the grades, to go to college so I did the smart thing. I went into the military and learned a trade. That trade now has me well employed and digging myself out of my self imposed debt.

A company that treats its employees well will always prosper because those employees will do quality work. The company I work for also treats employees very well and they have prospered because of it.

Poverty is NOT a choice. I just so happen to be raised in an impoverished area. I didnt CHOSE to make $5.15 an hr and just make it by from paycheck to paycheck. Get the fuk outta here with that. I also didnt CHOSE to be educated in the failing school system of Southern Ohio. I even moved, on a thought to Atlanta to find a better area to try and work and made it no better for myself.

While you were here in Atlanta did you take advantage of HOPE and PEL and go to school? If eligible for the military out of HS, did you pursue that as a way to learn a trade and a decent living? Were you a good student and never got into trouble? There you go, I just rattled off 3 quick choices YOU made that directly affected your future earnings potential.

Also a very good example is my friend DJ who currently resides in Southern Ohio (Portsmouth, OH) he works 3 jobs (1 day on Sunday at Church which is $100 for organ playing) part-time at Hillview Retirement Homes making 7.10 an hr and part time at Lil Caesar's making 7.45 an hour working 55hrs a week. Strapped with College debt of 34k (dropped out, or failed out due to transportation issues) and can barely make his payments after paying for fuel, partial rent/utilities, driving a 1996 Toyota Camry with 268k on it. He was born in Akron, OH, raised in Portsmouth, OH and he is still currently trying to make it better for himself. Doesnt make enough to successfully move, doesnt have the education he needs to push his career along (in whatever he desires) although he has been trying and trying for the past 3yrs to get out of Portsmouth. You tell him that he decided he wants to be in poverty and wanted to remain there!

College debt can be forgiven if he can show he cannot pay even if he dropped out as long as its a legitimate reason and not just laziness (not saying your friend was lazy).


BTW, just his 1 job at lil caesars puts your friend over the poverty line for a single adult. Adding in the other 2 jobs has him making well over 30k a year before taxes and he wont pay much in taxes, I would guess about 5k at the high end.

[nelson9995]

BanginJimmy- I know what the issue with you is; you are a die hard Republican. All you think about is profit profit profit. I would hate for you to be my manager and everyone else which is not a good thing! I'm done trying to discuss this with you; you republicans will never understand.

[blaknoize]

In reference Verik:

it was a figure of speech regarding the 26 an hr. I know one employee who works for Kroger who makes 21 an hr as a cashier and a Stocker for that same Kroger who make $29.76 an hour. They of course have been with the company from the good-ol-days but they do get paid nicely and perform each other their functions to the best of their respective abilities. I make almost 20 an hr and dont do ANYTHING near as involved as either of them do.

Fit and finish and presentation of a store is just as important as a person who manages the firewall of a small business or preps PC's for deployment. Of course this is my "radical" view of things but that is what I believe we should be treated like. Obviously we don't seem to like out neighbors doing as good as us if at all possible. We don't want them to have a nicer home or prettier car or sexier wife than us. Shareholders, business owners, conglomerates and corporations alike do not want this either it seems, for its employees in one way or the other.

But again, thats my "radical" view of things because everyone is worried about themselves and not their community as a whole, like it used to be, like it still in (somewhat) in small towns of our nation, like it was where I grew up at. Most companies took great care of their employees back then, the neighborhoods were filled with that particular employers workers and the city knew what employees worked with who. My aunt just so happen to be one of those lucky employees, had a great health-care plan, and even greater... almost exorbitant pay and worked a set schedule, no OT (not required either) and made roughly 70k a year, has a pension, retired and is living well, helping her whole family out. She makes more than me as a retiree than I do working FT. This company also paid 90% of her medical bill when she fell ill, brought her back when she recovered after 5months of rehab and paid her 40% of her income while she was out. She worked for them her whole working life 29years and never wanted to leave or look outside for another place because she loved her place of work and it showed her the same respect.

[BanginJimmy]

In reference Verik:

it was a figure of speech regarding the 26 an hr. I know one employee who works for Kroger who makes 21 an hr as a cashier and a Stocker for that same Kroger who make $29.76 an hour.

I dont typically do this, but I am going to call BS on this, especially the stocker making nearly $30 an hour unless this is some type of special arrangement they have. I just cant see a stocker making $60k a year for hat is realisticly a 20k a year job. So yea, you are either giving half the story or just making this up.

[blaknoize]

I dont typically do this, but I am going to call BS on this, especially the stocker making nearly $30 an hour unless this is some type of special arrangement they have. I just cant see a stocker making $60k a year for hat is realisticly a 20k a year job. So yea, you are either giving half the story or just making this up.

I'll have to see if I can reach him. He's been working with Kroger for a little over 20yrs. Kroger store #655 in Atlanta. Unless I was lied to by him personally then I could be BS'ing but he trained me when I first started working there in 05. I mean, I made $9.10 an hr there as a Cashier and I only worked there for 3yrs with a starting salary of $6.85. It was under strong union control to. I got a raise every 6months and was brought back even after I got "fired" from a store I transferred to up north.

And not even stopping at him. I'll have to see if my old Stock Night worker "BIG Vaughn" still works there. He started at 40k, albeit he was the night lead. This store is unique because its location is in a very affluent part of Atlanta (for all I know) up the street from the CDC and Emory Healthcare and University also near lil 5points which has lots of Jews thriving in the area.

[BanginJimmy]

BanginJimmy- I know what the issue with you is; you are a die hard Republican. All you think about is profit profit profit. I would hate for you to be my manager and everyone else which is not a good thing! I'm done trying to discuss this with you; you republicans will never understand.

Actually I am not a republican, but I am a fiscal conservative. I tend to lean more liberal on social issues.

Where did I ever say its only about profit? I have only said that profits drive a company to expand.

Considering you dont know me or anything about me, I dont really care that you wouldnt want to be managed by me.

[blaknoize]

I didn't pursue the Hope when I was in GA. I had to be a resident to qualify didn't I? (I never changed my status or tags) I also didn't want to pursue a military career (as u know I dont like this war) and I also wanted to stall as long as I could before doing something like that. I'm doing fine myself. I used my customer service skills and the little bit of computer related experience to gain employment with JP Morgan Chase, I'm fine just have no actual education. I failed out myself thanks to my old car and distance from school. UGH!! I'm in Columbus and made it out of there with Bushes stimulus check to get me my first apartment. Yes good student and so on.

I MADE myself go somewhere else because I looked and wondered and wanted things. So I just moved, lucked out a few times, ESPECIALLY with my employer in GA. TALK ABOUT LUCKED OUT. The hiring manager happen to be from Portsmouth, OH and HAPPEN to be the family friend of a classmate I graduated with and he just so happen to call him the day before my interview and my name came up for whatever reason. My interview wasnt even an interview, he hired me because he knew where I came from and how terrible it was.

I have a correction to my statement about DJ's status. He works 20hrs a week between both jobs and still does the church thing of $100 a week. I believe my argument is void.

[BanginJimmy]

Being under union control means there is a prescribed pay scale. That means that anyone with equal time there will be making the same thing. Maybe as a lead or supervisor they are making that much, but outside of that Kroger simply could not be competitive with that kind of scale.

[blaknoize]

Well about that income tax statement. NH residents dont pay income or sales tax. The argument I make about all this taxing yet not being able to live more than an existence shows when comparing NH to what I believe every other state we have. Its costs more, they are paid better, the actual cost of living is lesser up there. Car insurance is even cheaper for whatever reason.

A person making $7.50 should still be able to live "well" assuming they did not have any unnecessary payments. Like a car note, which seems to be hard to avoid when your in a very very tight spot and need transportation instantly and do not know the busing system, or... as in some cities, dont have busing systems or u live way out in a suburb. I lived on $7.25 but only for 4months. I had no car payment and a very economical car (when gas hit $4 a gallon the CRX was still expensive for my 20mile trip to and from work.) The problem with this whole debate about living on $7.50 is that the variables and so called "inflation" of goods can mess that up, secondly the assumption is that all things are working smoothly. Also, for whatever reason, GA state law "excludes from coverage any employment that is subject to the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act when the Federal rate is greater than the State rate." http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm#Georgia
So $7.50 isnt even the actual minimum wage there.

If that car and the ONLY car u own breaks, your $7.50 is already stretched to the limit to house u, feed u, cloth u and provide fuel for your transportation. I ran into that issue but had HELP. My car broke and forced me out of school, I didnt have enough to fix it and also didnt have enough to get another car. That is the issue I see, the assumption that all things will last and be as they were forever.

[ek forever]

I make about $9/hour on my two jobs. My fiance only works 3 days a week for my uncle at $10/hour without taxes being taken out.

We have:

$65,000 mortgage on a house that was originally $140,000.
Two paid for cars. Mine a 2000 Civic with solid suspension upgrades. And she has a 2007 Honda Civic with only a few payments left.
She has health insurance, I don't, I'm considering getting a policy from blue cross that costs $90/month. Covers all emergencies and has small copays for doctors visits and prescriptions.
We eat out maybe 3-4 times a month. We eat all natural and some organic food and cook at home a lot.
My house is well furnished. IKEA bedroom and mostly nice yard sale furniture everywhere else.
We feed 3 cats, which cost us about $150 a month in all natural cat food and natural cat litter.
I also paid for my college tuition at the University of West Ga every semester so far until this semester. Just got hope back, KICKASS.
I pay for my dental cleanings every year out of pocket. Why pay $30 a month for dental insurance when I can pay $60 a year for my annual cleaning? Haven't had a cavity in 5 years. Actually, which is when I had health/dental last under my mom.
We have Television, Charters 2nd fastest internet service available, (20mbps).
We both pay out of pocket for a Chiropractic adjustment every 2 months. $50 each.
Neither of us smoke and we drink very little. We're both in good health, I would say "shape" but I haven't worked out in months. my definition of shape is unusual, I'm 165lbs. I've lost weight since I quit working out.
$10/6pack of woodchuck every few weeks for me personally. Not a beer fan.

Neither of us have any debt. We both worked in high school to buy our cars, and we've both just been smart with out money since. We buy clothes at the thrift store. (with the exception of shoes, we both wear expensive shoes.)

(She actually has student loans with 0% interest, she's saved it all as cushion money in an annuity that earns 7%/year. She'll write one check when she graduates to pay the loan off and she'll have made about a few thousand dollars over the last 4 years.


Determination and knowing how to make a budget can go a long way. When we decided to buy a house and move out from living with my mom we sat down and figured out our monthly income and what we could afford.

We both go to school full time and we're Juniors at UWG. COMBINED I think we make about $30,000/year.

And again. ZERO debt. (besides the mortgage)