Brakes/Tires/Suspension/Chassis (performance)

[EvasiveEF9]

Well, I think enough of us are into getting our cars to stick to the road (JFRO, StraightSix...) that I think it's time we start talking suspension. How you've got it set up, and how you're rollin' it...

After this morning's run, I'm back into wanting to hug corners tighter. So let's talk it out.

I went up this morning, and this is how I was set up...

KYB AGX 4ways
-Front @ 4
-Rear @ 3

Skunk2 pro coils
-Front was about 2/3 to 3/4 spun down with both perches
-Rear was slammed, but still had both perches

Strut/Sway:
-Front = None
-Rear = None

Bushings
-Most all Urethane, all around

Brakes
-Front = 10.3" Integra, all stock/OEM
-Rear = Rear disc from Integra, all stock/OEM

Pads
-Front = No name in good condition
-Rear = No name with VERY VERY worn down pads

Master Cyl/Booster
-Integra LS stock 15/16" mc and booster

Fluid
-Dot 4

Wheels
-15' Konig Helium

Tires
-205 Proxes 4's; all @ 30-32lbs pressure

Other mods:
No other chassis braces at this time
Revo2 front camber kit

Caster:
Left is back by -1.0degree
Right is back by -1.6degrees

Camber:
Left @ -.4degree
Right @ -1.2degree (will soon be adjusted)

Toe: In spec
Left @ .05
Right @ .09

Total Toe @ .13degree

REAR:

Camber:
Left @ -1.9
Right @ -2.1 (out of spec: Cannot adjust)

Toe:
Left @ .06
Right @ .02 (out of spec: Cannot adjust) (only slightly out of spec)

Review:
I really enjoyed the setup. Now that my MC is back to being functional, my brakes grabbed VERY well. They started to get hot at one point from my over-driving the car. Pedal felt harder than normal, but was still responsive with more pressure. Gave me ample warning. Tires grabbed VERY well @ 30lbs of pressure, but I PROBABLY could use and softer compound for more aggressive/faster driving OR I could have probably dropped to 26-28 to be stickier in turns, but probably would have allowed the car to sway a little mor making it less responsive. 28lbs probably would have been about optimal. I'll try it next time. As for the struts, the rear I enjoy having softer to prevent the rear end from coming loose. Perhaps this can be adjusted with a rear sway bar? Either way. Right now I need to adjust the front right camber, and figure out what I'm gonna do about the back right wheel. It's not far out of spec, AT ALL...but still...I prefer perfection. As for the caster...I see a new toy coming soon. I hung well with the two corvettes and two evo's I went with...but I just need a little more juice to hang with them in the straights a little closer...

Either way, we topped out up there at 115mph, and avg was probably 80 (give or take). I ran harder than I've ever run before, and I was impressed. The front end didn't seem to get front-heavy and start to plow, nor did the rear end get loose (however, I wonder what the affect will be when I put pads back in the rear).

Anyways...anyone got advice, input, or wanna put up there suggestions or setups?

Thought this could be fun...seeing as the EF IS pretty much the PREMIER car to run this stuff with...

Oh...on a side note. I got my car aligned saturday. Some of the specs ARE still out (which will help if I could fix it) and some of them CAN'T be adjusted...due to the fucker that hit and twisted my car chassis. This is sufficient proof that my chassis IS twisted...

[Papa_Smurf]

Tokico Hp non adjustable

Neuspeed Sport Springs
-2.0F
-1.8R

Strut/Sway
-Neuspeed front strut bar

Bushings
-Stock

Wheels
-14 inch HX

Tires
-Kuhmo ???'s




everything els is stock. at the moment i have not installed my struts (will be here tuesday) so i will have an update then. I will say that before the install of the new struts, i'm not happy w/ the neuspeed sport springs (too soft), and i wish i had more breaking power (Ex: DA brakes) but a lack of funds keeps me from upgrading

[bigdare23]

Tokico Hp non adjustable

Neuspeed Sport Springs
-2.0F
-1.8R

Strut/Sway
-Neuspeed front strut bar

Bushings
-Stock

Wheels
-14 inch HX

Tires
-Kuhmo ???'s




everything els is stock. at the moment i have not installed my struts (will be here tuesday) so i will have an update then. I will say that before the install of the new struts, i'm not happy w/ the neuspeed sport springs (too soft), and i wish i had more breaking power (Ex: DA brakes) but a lack of funds keeps me from upgrading

What you expect? It is a street spring

I'm rocking Neuspeed sport springs and KYB GR2s struts. By no means, this isnt a race setup. This is an aggressive street setup thats better than stock

[Papa_Smurf]

What you expect? It is a street spring

I'm rocking Neuspeed sport springs and KYB GR2s struts. By no means, this isnt a race setup. This is an aggressive street setup thats better than stock

oh shit, i didn't know you were rockin the neuspeed sport springs too darryl. how do you like them? i've only rode on them on stock struts that were going bad, so i'm hoping these Tokico HP's will make the suspension feel alot better.

[Cato ED-6]

Awesome, more info please. Next thing I'm upgrading is the suspension.

Only thing I got are top strut bars, front and back.
Rear DA brake swap, which are currently barely grabbing...
Rotex Gold Kevlar Pads.
Riding on VXs with Kuhmos.

[bigdare23]

oh shit, i didn't know you were rockin the neuspeed sport springs too darryl. how do you like them? i've only rode on them on stock struts that were going bad, so i'm hoping these Tokico HP's will make the suspension feel alot better.

I agree they are soft, but I wanted a spring to improve ride quality. Most "handling gurus" wouldnt like them.

[Papa_Smurf]

I agree they are soft, but I wanted a spring to improve ride quality. Most "handling gurus" wouldnt like them.

i'm no "handling guru" by any means, lol. i think i'll like the way the car feels with the tokico's

[EvasiveEF9]

Awesome, more info please. Next thing I'm upgrading is the suspension.

Only thing I got are top strut bars, front and back.
Rear DA brake swap, which are currently barely grabbing...
Rotex Gold Kevlar Pads.
Riding on VXs with Kuhmos.

I wanna get your brakes right this week. When you wanna do 'em?

[StraightSix]

My laignment settings are currently stock. The suspension is also currently stock. I don't have the measurements with me, so I can't post them.

Brakes:
Original Master Cyl., should be 13/16ths.
Front STD with Bendix IQ pads.
Rear stock Integra disks with Wearever golds.
Fluid = ATE Super Blue.

** The ATE fluid isn't all that great. At Road Atlanta the pedal was still fading, during my sessions. I only ran two sessions on Sunday. My Dad drove the car all weekend, however.

I have a Si front sway and no rear sway.

Tires are 195/50/15 Toyo Proxes 4s. I usually set the front pressures to 30-35psi and the rear to 35-40 psi.

Ben - To get your rear camber more positive, you can add washers behind the pivot link that is bolted to the body. You have to also use slightly longer bolts to maintain the correct amount of thread engagement.

[Cato ED-6]

I wanna get your brakes right this week. When you wanna do 'em?

Most likely:
Friday, after you get off work.
and/or
Saturday and Sunday, and miss some Nopi.

Anytime is fine with me. Just say when.

[slow_hatch]

We'll my setup is awesome

Coilovers: Ebay Specials(Arospeed i think, they were free)
Settings: Front- 2/3 down
Rear- All the way down, one twist perch removed

Struts: Stock

Swaybar: Front- DX bar
Rear- None

Bushings: Stock

Brakes: Integra Disk Front & Rear
Pads: Stock
Disk: Stock
M/C: Remanufactered stock
Fluid: DoT 4
Prop. Valve: Integra

Wheels: 14" O.Z.

Tires: Suminto(?) $35 Tirerack.com

All alignment was done before the coilovers were installed so ever thing is zeroed out, other than the camber

This is by far the ultimate setup. I've beaten a few motorcycles running this setup(ok ok, granted the riders sucked)

[jfrolang]

I guarantee your toe is off if you haven't had an alignment since lowering it.

[ash7]

Coilovers: GC w/ OTS rates 350f 300r (selling soon) i prefer 425f 400r rates from GC
Struts: Tokico Blues (horrible strut for performance, rod stroke is far too shallow) I prefer SPSS3 modified Koni Sports.

Swaybar:
Front- HF
Rear- SI

Bushings: Energy Suspension kit fully installed (graphite injected), trailing arms have standard red Polyurethane bushings from ES

Brakes: stock SI front/rear
Pads: OEM
Disc: OEM
M/C: DC2
Brake Booster: DC2
Fluid: Motul RBF600
Prop. Valve: 40/40

Wheels: 15x8 Sportmax typeII

Tires: Dunlop Direzza 195/50

This setup will be put through Hades in a few weeks at the Tail. I'll report back with my results.

-jonathan

[Papa_Smurf]

jonathon, are those the Tokico HP's?

i have a set comming in tomorrow.

[ash7]

HPs are the white adjustables i believe.

do not slam your car with these installed bro. The top main seal will split in half within 400 miles. I'll put money on it.

Tokico has a bad habit of leaving the body length of the strut about 1" too short to accept the rod fully into the cylinder, this creates all kinds of un needed stress on the internals of the damper (you'll hear a knocking, that's the damper bottoming out).

-jonathan

[jfrolang]

blues are HPs. Tokico Illuminas are the white adjustable ones.

[Papa_Smurf]

HPs are the white adjustables i believe.

do not slam your car with these installed bro. The top main seal will split in half within 400 miles. I'll put money on it.

Tokico has a bad habit of leaving the body length of the strut about 1" too short to accept the rod fully into the cylinder, this creates all kinds of un needed stress on the internals of the damper (you'll hear a knocking, that's the damper bottoming out).

-jonathan

yea, like jeff said the blues are the HP's, allumina's are the adj's.

My car isn't slammed, it's 2.0 front and 1.8 rear on relativly soft springs.

Jeff said he rode on his tokico's for 5 years and never had a problem. i believe we have around the same drop . I mean, you can tell how low my car is from my sig, i hope that drop wolnt be too much of a problem...

[jfrolang]

5 years of 2.5" drop on tokico blues. Not the greatest shocks in the world but they haven't fallen apart on me.

[ash7]

lol, your'e right.

it's late, forgive me.

either way, Tokico struts are good OEM replacements IMO... they're not a performance damper, and can't take much abuse.

-jonathan

[Papa_Smurf]

5 years of 2.5" drop on tokico blues. Not the greatest shocks in the world but they haven't fallen apart on me.

this is good news. i have a feeling they'll do just fine for me

[slow_hatch]

I guarantee your toe is off if you haven't had an alignment since lowering it.

LOL, i'm sure its all off.

[Black R]

wait, what are we supposed to be doing? talking about our suspension setup and how good it is?


ok here goes:

apexi n1 99spec coilovers with 11k front and 16k rear springs
integra big brakes all around along with the master cylinder
itr rear lca's and front shock forks
suspension techniques rear swaybar set on full soft
neuspeed front upper strut tower bar
ebay upper rear strut tower bar
jimfab traction bars with a custom front subframe brace

i run factory settings for toe and about 2.5deg of negative camber

the car is about 4.5" from the jacking points to the ground\

i have a few different sets of wheels, but right now I've got some 15x8 te37's and 225/45/15 hoosiers.

impressions:

I'm still sorting it out, but it's pretty neutral with a bit of understeer until you lift in a corner. I can remedy that by increasing the stiffness of the rear swaybar, but I'm not happy with the way the endlinks mount and the angle so I think I'm going to have some machined that'll fit my needs.

I'll update as I do some more testing.

[jfrolang]

11k/16k spring rates? You drive this car on the street?

[EvasiveEF9]

Sorry to have been gone so long, everyone...

Ben - To get your rear camber more positive, you can add washers behind the pivot link that is bolted to the body. You have to also use slightly longer bolts to maintain the correct amount of thread engagement.

You're not diggin' the ATE Blue? That stuff's supposed to be GOOD. As for my camber, I'm not too concerned. When I get the new shell, THEN I'll shoot for perfection. Right now, it's just on standby...

I guarantee your toe is off if you haven't had an alignment since lowering it.

I second this FACT. Not opinion...FACT.

Fluid: Motul RBF600
Prop. Valve: 40/40

Wheels: 15x8 Sportmax typeII

-jonathan

How's that fluid work for ya? 4040 on stock...you've gotta have rear discs, I'd hope...? Those wheels...the width is gonna help ya, but the weight of sportmax wheels is gonna kill ya. When you look at new wheels, consider a slightly skinnier and lighter wheel.

HPs are the white adjustables i believe.

do not slam your car with these installed bro. The top main seal will split in half within 400 miles. I'll put money on it.

Tokico has a bad habit of leaving the body length of the strut about 1" too short to accept the rod fully into the cylinder, this creates all kinds of un needed stress on the internals of the damper (you'll hear a knocking, that's the damper bottoming out).

-jonathan

Good to know. Repped. Good to know...

wait, what are we supposed to be doing? talking about our suspension setup and how good it is?

ok here goes:

apexi n1 99spec coilovers with 11k front and 16k rear springs
integra big brakes all around along with the master cylinder
itr rear lca's and front shock forks
suspension techniques rear swaybar set on full soft
neuspeed front upper strut tower bar
ebay upper rear strut tower bar
jimfab traction bars with a custom front subframe brace

i run factory settings for toe and about 2.5deg of negative camber

the car is about 4.5" from the jacking points to the ground\

i have a few different sets of wheels, but right now I've got some 15x8 te37's and 225/45/15 hoosiers.

impressions:

I'm still sorting it out, but it's pretty neutral with a bit of understeer until you lift in a corner. I can remedy that by increasing the stiffness of the rear swaybar, but I'm not happy with the way the endlinks mount and the angle so I think I'm going to have some machined that'll fit my needs.

I'll update as I do some more testing.

You little friggin' baller...
What's the difference in the ITR front forks, out of curiosity? Also, let us know how you play with the rear sway. I'm looking to get one, and I'm interested to see which is my best purchase...

11k/16k spring rates? You drive this car on the street?

...he never said it's his daily. That's all I'm sayin'. But I'll warn ya...when you think you know him, you're wrong.

[jfrolang]

a 4040 prop valve requires more than just rear discs for proper operation, you need the larger Integra calipers up front as well. Stock front brakes with rear discs, you want a CRX Si prop valve, I think it's 2540.

[StraightSix]

The ATE super Blue *is* supposed to be good, which is why I bought it. I haven't been all that impressed with it. I'll be switching to Motul very soon.

[Cato ED-6]

a 4040 prop valve requires more than just rear discs for proper operation, you need the larger Integra calipers up front as well. Stock front brakes with rear discs, you want a CRX Si prop valve, I think it's 2540.

I think you just solved my problem with my brakes. Running a 4040 with stock front and DA discs in the back. I have barely any pressure in the back.

Could I run a stock 91 hatch dx prop. valve?
Or am I going to have to get a crx si valve?

[jfrolang]

It needs to be a 90-91 CRX Si valve. You have 9.5" front brakes with EF/DA rear discs. Only the CRX Si with rear discs had that combination.

It's probably a pain to source one though, so the easier solution is DA front brakes.

[Cato ED-6]

Well I got SiR lines from autozone, so I'm hoping they have the valve.
Going to try all the stores tommorow and might run to a junkyard.

Thanks for the info, I'd rep you if I could.

[EvasiveEF9]

a 4040 prop valve requires more than just rear discs for proper operation, you need the larger Integra calipers up front as well. Stock front brakes with rear discs, you want a CRX Si prop valve, I think it's 2540.

Bingo...that's what I needed...

The ATE super Blue *is* supposed to be good, which is why I bought it. I haven't been all that impressed with it. I'll be switching to Motul very soon.

Let me know how that goes.

I think you just solved my problem with my brakes. Running a 4040 with stock front and DA discs in the back. I have barely any pressure in the back.

Could I run a stock 91 hatch dx prop. valve?
Or am I going to have to get a crx si valve?

Bingo. We went 4040 cuz we thought you were doing DA front, remember?
No.
Yes.

It needs to be a 90-91 CRX Si valve. You have 9.5" front brakes with EF/DA rear discs. Only the CRX Si with rear discs had that combination.

It's probably a pain to source one though, so the easier solution is DA front brakes.

Option B is to run the 35/40 prop. Can't remembe what it's off of, though. I wanna say 92-95 civic? Check my accuracy... Available at Napa, I'm sure...

Well I got SiR lines from autozone, so I'm hoping they have the valve.
Going to try all the stores tommorow and might run to a junkyard.

Thanks for the info, I'd rep you if I could.

While at the salvage, look for 3540. I swear it'll be what you want. Fuck autozone for the prop. Use napa. Smarter people. Plus, I can pull you a discount through the shop I work at. Hell, your shop probably has an account with 'em, too.

[Cato ED-6]

While at the salvage, look for 3540. I swear it'll be what you want. Fuck autozone for the prop. Use napa. Smarter people. Plus, I can pull you a discount through the shop I work at. Hell, your shop probably has an account with 'em, too.

Well I don't care where its from, the part wont be different. A 3540 prop valve off a 90-91 crx si w/ rear discs.

I'll most likely get a discount at where ever I go, but its my dad's shop...I just help. LOL

And ya I remember everything, was a pain in the ass, and I'm still driving it with no back brakes...hard to forget when I need about 2x the braking distance. LOL

[Black R]

11k/16k spring rates? You drive this car on the street?

I daily drove it for 3 years like that and wifey even daily drove it for like a year while I was rebuilding the motor in her itr.

The dampers are adjustable, so I just turn them to full soft for street duty - it wasn't too bad driving to FL and back. Now the roads in TN and Ohio suck imho! I drove up there a couple months ago and hated the ride in my EF. That wasn't the car's fault though - those people need to pave some shit! LOL

I don't daily drive my EF much anymore - mainly because I bought this 240 and it's fun to rwd it up.

[ash7]

I think you just solved my problem with my brakes. Running a 4040 with stock front and DA discs in the back. I have barely any pressure in the back.

Could I run a stock 91 hatch dx prop. valve?
Or am I going to have to get a crx si valve?

Are you running a stock booster and master cylinder?

How are you measuring the pressure getting to your back brakes?

-jonathan

[Cato ED-6]

Ya stock booster and MC.

We had the car's ass jacked up and spun the rear wheels, hit the brake and the rear wheels slowly stopped, instead of suddenly stopping due to being in the air.
We did the same with the front ones and they stop like they should.

And I should mention that the E-brake will stop the back, if that helps anyone. Its been my savior a couple of times now, it's living up to its name.

[ash7]

Ya stock booster and MC.

We had the car's ass jacked up and spun the rear wheels, hit the brake and the rear wheels slowly stopped, instead of suddenly stopping due to being in the air.
We did the same with the front ones and they stop like they should.

And I should mention that the E-brake will stop the back, if that helps anyone. Its been my savior a couple of times now, it's living up to its name.

is the engine running when you're testing the rear brakes? The valve will only allow pressure to the rear brakes when you're applying extreme pressure.

EVASIVE - motul rbf600 is IMO the best brake fluid on the market. Your car would have to practicly be on fire for it to start boiling. motul ftw

You won't find it anywhere but in sport bike shops though, it's around 12$ a pint.

-jonathan

[Cato ED-6]

I can't remember if we had the engine running or not. Most likely we didn't.
But what would the engine have to do about the brakes?

And yes, I was slamming on the brakes and still only had slight pressure in the rear.

[jfrolang]

If the engine's running it will be providing vacuum to the booster.

[Konstantin]

Can anyone reccomend a good set of struts? I'm looking for something very aggresive. I do not mind ride comfort loss at all.
I've heard and seen very good things from Tokico Illuminas. Thats kinda pricey, but you DO get what you pay for...I'm thinking before my engine build I'll be doing suspension.
Also, I was going to do a package deal withthe Illuminas and TOkicos 1.5" lowering springs. FOr 1.5" drop, what would you guys suggest?

[ash7]

I can't remember if we had the engine running or not. Most likely we didn't.
But what would the engine have to do about the brakes?

And yes, I was slamming on the brakes and still only had slight pressure in the rear.

Time for professor CRXseven to teach a lesson on how a prop valve works...

[cracks knuckles and gets to typing]

Proportioning valves were designed to help balance braking pressure on cars with front disk/rear drum brakes. Inertia and momentum cause weight to shift to the front of a vehicle when braking, in turn causing the rear axle to lift from the road lowering the traction between tires and road.

Disk brakes require higher hydraulic pressure than drums do because drums use a mechanical servo action to increase force applied to the brakes.

When the brakes are first applied under light/normal braking, the valve does NOTHING. Fluid enters the valve at the smaller piston area and passes straight through. Only when you apply significant braking force, it achieves pressure at the outlet side of the valve exerting greater backpressure than inlet pressure moving the piston back towards the inlet side against spring pressure, thus closing the center valve stem and blocking pressure to the outlet. This pressure is called the split point. As pressure increases from the master cylinder, inlet pressure at the proportioning valve overcomes the pressure at the large end of the piston and reopens the valve. Brake fluid then flows through the center of the valve, pressure rises at the outlet, and it closes again. THIS OCCURS SEVERAL TIMES PER SECOND.

It allows pressure to increase to the rear brakes, but at a lower rate than pressure to the front.

Proportioning valves are rated in a ratio like this: after the split point, pressure to the rear brakes will rise proportionally to the front brakes. If you were to get a valve rated at 100/200 (0.50) for every two PSI of hydraulic pressure at the front you will achieve 1 at the rear.

---you may stop taking notes now

check your valve, make sure it's the correct one for your application (i.e. disc or drum)

-jonathan

[Papa_Smurf]

jonathan, you just google "prop valve" or something to make urself look smart?

lolol