Spear of Jesus (Discorvery special)

[4dmin]

http://times.discovery.com/tvlisting...=0&channel=DTC

Ya so i watched this yesterday.. it was tested and not old enough to be the spear that pierced jesus... i guess this is why all who held it eventually fell (hitler), it was interesting none the less.

[Romeyo07]

yeah it was very interesting...good show. Love how they put so much work into trying to find an answer/history behind this. I'll have to dvr it when it comes on again.

[Brut]

i that thing in the moive conastatine

[TheSnail]

I wonder how much it would go for on Ebay?

[blacknightteg]

I wonder how much it would go for on Ebay?

[Stormhammer]

you know, still in all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if the Catholic Church had something to do with it in the past ( not knocking on it, but historically speaking it was somewhat corrupt and such - maybe they just lost it and replaced it? )

[4dmin]

you know, still in all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised if the Catholic Church had something to do with it in the past ( not knocking on it, but historically speaking it was somewhat corrupt and such - maybe they just lost it and replaced it? )

well it was dated back to 7th century and everything from then has been recorded for this spear but it was tested and isn't old enough to be from the crucifixion... i just find it funny another win for science , people put so much faith into artifacts to prove their beliefs... in the end look what it gets you.

[ClipseGST]

Yea... the Catholic church definately has hidden alot of information about Christianity from the world, and still continues to do so. If you've seen stigmata, you know what I mean.

[Romeyo07]

You can't get your real life / real world beleifs from a movie

[metalman]

There are a couple different "reputed" such spears. They all seem to have a connection to catholcism which should tell the discerning viewer something.
That church claims or has claimed at any given time to have such things as:

a. the bones of john the baptist
b. the hair of Jesus & John
c. the breast milk of mary
d. the blood of various "saints"

and a ton of other ridiculous things.

As for a "win for science" I would have to say that Christians (in the true sense) do NOT base their beliefs on relics, thats a catholic notion, and one that should be rejected.

[4dmin]

As for a "win for science" I would have to say that Christians (in the true sense) do NOT base their beliefs on relics, thats a catholic notion, and one that should be rejected.

umm well many have in the past and even today, whether or not they are christians in a "true sense" i think only your god is the one to answer that

[metalman]

You are correct, God will ultimately judge each one...including you & I.

However, I can say without hesitation that true Christians shun idolotry, relic worship/reverance and always have. Many were burned at the stake for refusing to do such. Your assumption that Christians derive their belief/faith from relics is incorrect. That is a pagan practice..period. My statements pertain to the behaviour, not the individual.

Christian practice = no worship of relics or deriving faith from them, no faith in them
Pagan practice = worship/adoration of relics and basing faith upon/in them

[4dmin]

You are correct, God will ultimately judge each one...including you & I.

However, I can say without hesitation that true Christians shun idolotry, relic worship/reverance and always have. Many were burned at the stake for refusing to do such. Your assumption that Christians derive their belief/faith from relics is incorrect. That is a pagan practice..period. My statements pertain to the behaviour, not the individual.

Christian practice = no worship of relics or deriving faith from them, no faith in them
Pagan practice = worship/adoration of relics and basing faith upon/in them

umm it wasn't an assumption many have and do believe in such things... shit the catholic church is full of such symbols... but the whole story of the spear is filled w/ such. hello the cross

[metalman]

Yes, you have merely pointed out the idolotry and pagan practice in the catholic church, and others. Thats no secret to Christians, many have been pointing that out for ages, centuries even. Thanks for joining in!

Again, Christians shun the practice of idolotry. Period.
Christians do not get their faith from relics but from a relationship with Christ and His Word. Doing so (deriving faith from, worship/adoration of relics) is NOT Christian in any sense of the word. Dont mistake a non christian practice for the real thing.

Are there Christians who have erred in this way? Yes. Just like there are those who have murdered, stolen, and committed any number of other sins. None of those acts represents Christianity but are just sins for which those who committed them must repent.

[4dmin]

Are there Christians who have erred in this way? Yes. Just like there are those who have murdered, stolen, and committed any number of other sins. None of those acts represents Christianity but are just sins for which those who committed them must repent.

i understand the point, but every act represents christianity sin or not... that is why there is a name for such acts.

Christians do not get their faith from relics but from a relationship with Christ and His Word.

ok, what is the bible then? it is nothing more then a relic yet you cling to that as "faith" and its ok...? kinda sounds like your picking and choosing now.

[metalman]

i understand the point, but every act represents christianity sin or not... that is why there is a name for such acts.

MISrepresents. The name for such acts is idolotry/sin.

ok, what is the bible then? it is nothing more then a relic yet you cling to that as "faith" and its ok...? kinda sounds like your picking and choosing now.

The Bible is a book that contains principles that can be tested. Those who have not done so or who have never studied or understood its precepts would hardly be expected to understand such.
It also contains world history, much of which can be verified. It even contains science and math which also can be tested. It contains prophecys that have already come to pass in exact detail, proof that more WILL come to pass in the same manner.
Christianity in the true sense does not involve worship/adoration the Bible, it is to worship the Creator who authored it. Knowlege of the Bible leads to a better understanding of the past, present, & future and a better understanding of our Creator.

If you wish to say that some have erred in that they have worshiped the book instead of it's Author you would be correct. That too is a sin.

To be a Christian literally means to be like Christ, to follow His example. The Bible (along with prayer) reveal that example and path to any that wish/desire to know. Those who don't wish to know or cling to other hopes and dreams are left in darkness.

[blacknightteg]

catholics do have idols and what not in their churches but, if i remeber correctly learning this, and knowing it because it is my own faith. Idols were brought back into the catholic church because it was one of those thigns that they had to co-exist with once all the heresy and shunning of the catholic church started to happen. i mean if you look at the nicene (sp?) creed the only reason that that was made was because constantine brought all the bishops of the catholic religion(which still at that time might add was not call the "catholic" church as we think of it) to rome to come up with something that would bring a unity back to the faith, because of all the gnostic and heresy preaching that were being done. and i mean look atht second vatican council, the catholic religion again had to come together to change things so that they can evolve with the day and age. i mean before the vatican 2, every part of a mass was spoken in latin and people felt disrepsected because they couldnt have it heard in their own language.

to me, although i know the catholic church is at the brunt of many discussions, mostly because it is where all of world wide spreading of one religion began. i dont see and or understand why it is brought under such scruitany.


paul, in my opinon, as for the bible. yes you could consider it an idol. but people dont nessisarly(sp?) worship the bible like some people do idols and relics. the bible is mearly used as a tool in a persons faith, where they can go and read things that might comfort, resolve, or help them make sense of something. it is no where near an idol.

[metalman]

catholics do have idols and what not in their churches but, if i remeber correctly learning this, and knowing it because it is my own faith. Idols were brought back into the catholic church because it was one of those thigns that they had to co-exist with once all the heresy and shunning of the catholic church started to happen.
.

I have no doubt you have been taught many things with regard to the idolotry in catholic ritual. The church has a lengthy history of putting its own spin on the facts. I am personally familiar with such.

One immense problem for catholics is the notions put forth by the vatican that truth comes FROM the Church rather then from God. Another problem is the notion that to understand Scripture one needs the guidance of the church/priest etc. Both these notions are blatantly false. Another severely incorrect notion is that there is no salvation outside of the catholic church.
This couldnt be further from the truth.

I sincerely aknowlege that catholics have their work cut out for them. To disregard notions placed upon one for their entire life under the pretense of "eternal" hell, damnnation etc is not an easy road. I have close friends that have long struggled to rectify these things in their minds but I can tell you the destination is worth the trip.

All I can say is STUDY FOR YOURSELF. Not catholic propaganda, but study the Word. If anyone really wants to know truth (as opposed to whatever notions theyve been taught) they will find it. This is true for ALL of us.

[Wurm]

I rewrote the bible you read today a few years ago Wurm 3:16 states Wurm is your new savior but for wurm to save you from the world you must give him all your car parts.....

[4dmin]

Christianity in the true sense does not involve worship/adoration the Bible, it is to worship the Creator who authored it. Knowlege of the Bible leads to a better understanding of the past, present, & future and a better understanding of our Creator.

If you wish to say that some have erred in that they have worshiped the book instead of it's Author you would be correct. That too is a sin.

To be a Christian literally means to be like Christ, to follow His example. The Bible (along with prayer) reveal that example and path to any that wish/desire to know. Those who don't wish to know or cling to other hopes and dreams are left in darkness.

you are still putting faith in words whether you like it or not, it is the same; nothing more then a relic. if you were just worshiping the "Author" then there is no need for you to follow or put faith in a book. any physical object can be a relic to be idolized the bible/cross is such.

sorry man you put your foot in your mouth in this discussion.

[blacknightteg]

you are still putting faith in words whether you like it or not, it is the same; nothing more then a relic. if you were just worshiping the "Author" then there is no need for you to follow or put faith in a book.

sorry man you put your foot in your mouth in this discussion.

ill have to agree with paul on this one. if you were to worship the "author" of the bible, then you would be worshiping everyone else but god. god did not write the bible, nor techically are those his words, especially in the new testiment. Even the old testment back in the days of the first and second temple. but pauls right, if you were to worship its author then you would be worshiping his diciples. the bible was made by them to spread the word of god. i mean, the whole new testament of the bible was made up by a council of people, that were brought together. all the writings that were brought together were letters from paul, john, peter etc. etc. the ones that they felt werent suitable for peoples beliefs at the time were the ones that were left out and later considered the gnostic

[metalman]

if you were to worship its author then you would be worshiping his diciples. the bible was made by them to spread the word of god.

Grossly incorrect.

Worshiping the Creator is just that. Taking the principles of the Bible and testing them is not worship, just acceptance of divine inspiriation as its given, regardless of through whom it is given.

Youre right, the Bible was GIVEN...and given by God, THROUGH men, to spread the gospel. If you want to know about that Gospel you will be quite willing to accept/test the principles of the Bible, to see whether they are OF GOD or not.

Again, I would not expect any of us who only approach this intellectually without any personal digestion and testing of that Word to really understand this principle.

[metalman]

you are still putting faith in words whether you like it or not, it is the same; nothing more then a relic. if you were just worshiping the "Author" then there is no need for you to follow or put faith in a book. any physical object can be a relic to be idolized the bible/cross is such.

sorry man you put your foot in your mouth in this discussion.

I have clearly explained the difference. Youre failure to discern that is not a huge surprise really.

You can worship just the Author/Creator without even a copy of Scripture. A sense of right and wrong, conscience is given to all. But failure to aknowlege the plain truth and precepts of the Bible one can test and see with ones own eyes would be stupid to say the least, especially when we have it readily available.
The facts here will never be clear to those who cling to "hopes and dreams" rather then actually digesting and testing the Word.

[4dmin]

I have clearly explained the difference. Youre failure to discern that is not a huge surprise really.

You can worship just the Author/Creator without even a copy of Scripture. A sense of right and wrong, conscience is given to all. But failure to aknowlege the plain truth and precepts of the Bible one can test and see with ones own eyes would be stupid to say the least, especially when we have it readily available.
The facts here will never be clear to those who cling to "hopes and dreams" rather then actually digesting and testing the Word.

i think you said you were married right..? your wife must be a women of no words b/c your always right :jerkit:

ok if you were to worship GOD and GOD alone, not mans interpetation of, then you would not need a relic/idol such as a cross or a bible to have a relationship w/ GOD. You express previously in the thread how you as the example "christian" shun upon such; yet you are doing it yourself. this is a perfect example of how alot of christians express their views picking and chooseing what is/isn't ok. you can take faith in a book, but people can't take faith in a religous artifacts YOUR book so describes.

it cool you can post whatever you want dude my point has been proven by your words.

[ISAtlanta300]

i think you said you were married right..? your wife must be a women of no words b/c your always right :jerkit:

ok if you were to worship GOD and GOD alone, not mans interpetation of, then you would not need a relic/idol such as a cross or a bible to have a relationship w/ GOD. You express previously in the thread how you as the example "christian" shun upon such; yet you are doing it yourself. this is a perfect example of how alot of christians express their views picking and chooseing what is/isn't ok. you can take faith in a book, but people can't take faith in a religous artifacts YOUR book so describes.

it cool you can post whatever you want dude my point has been proven by your words.

I think you are confusing "worship" with "follow".

When you follow certain rules does not mean you "worship" them... just because you "follow" the speed limit does not mean you "worship" the law. I don't see how you could "worship" the bible ?

[4dmin]

I think you are confusing "worship" with "follow".

When you follow certain rules does not mean you "worship" them... just because you "follow" the speed limit does not mean you "worship" the law. I don't see how you could "worship" the bible ?

call it what you want putting FAITH in the bible is not different then putting faith in any other object... you are giving power to an object and nothing more. doesn't matter if its a spear, book, a horses cock. doesn't matter.

i just love how every topic on christianity anyone who isn't christian is "confused"... seems like a bad god complex some of you have.

[metalman]

you are still putting faith in words whether you like it or not, it is the same; nothing more then a relic. .

Lets try this once more....
Having faith in words/principles that you have tested and know to be true isnt even close to having faith in relics which have NO power, and contain NO truth. Theres a HUGE difference.

Principles of the Word lead to knowlege of past, present & future, happiness, salvation,etc.
Relics lead to NOTHING except maybe a museum.

Don't mistake faith based upon knowlege of proven facts and testing of those principles for living for the adoration of a "relic".

Is a measure of faith required? Yes of course. God always requires a measure of faith. Is there sufficient grounds/facts to substantiate that faith? Yes indeed. But only those who digest the Word will truly know this.


One or two examples....

In the Bible it says "thou shalt not commit adultery"
The context is this, if you love God and love your fellow man, and you want to be happy you will not engage in adultery.

Is that principle true???
Absolutely! Adultery leads to unhappiness, alimony, child support, legal battles, lawyer fees, bitterness, STD's, unwanted pregnancy, broken homes, seperation from family etc etc etc
Anyone who doesnt have their head placed firmly up their ass can see this.

Likewise, the Bible states (except the edited catholic version)"thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them"
The context of this principle is, if you love God, if you truly want to have your prayers answered by Someone who can actually hear and answer them, if you want to be HAPPY and enjoy the blessings of ANY God then idoltry WONT work!
Is that true???
Absolutely!
Praying to or adoring statues of dead people will get you NOTHING, NADA, ZIPPO!
Why? Because wood/stone cant hear you! The dead cant hear you! They have nothing to do with anything living on earth. Neither can answer your prayer/adoration so you are left with NOTHING.

There are dozens, even hundreds of Biblical principles that can be tested and proven to be true. Living these principles will allow the follower to have "a measure of faith" and confidence that other things predicted in the Bible are also true. Thats called living the Gospel.
Thats why God gave His Word through men to begin with.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

[blacknightteg]

i still feel that you cannot worship a bible. also, i still cannot come to grips saying that the bible maybe the word of god. yes it has his principles but nothing is the "true" word of god. they are mearly just small representations of the teachings that the diciples say were given to them.

[4dmin]

i still feel that you cannot worship a bible. also, i still cannot come to grips saying that the bible maybe the word of god. yes it has his principles but nothing is the "true" word of god. they are mearly just small representations of the teachings that the diciples say were given to them.

i find it funny he is putting faith in a book that isn't as old the artifact the topic was based on. i think someone just wants to argue for the sake of argueing... we went from the spear of jesus to adultery

[metalman]

i find it funny he is putting faith in a book that isn't as old the artifact the topic was based on. i think someone just wants to argue for the sake of argueing... we went from the spear of jesus to adultery

Yes I know...youre confused. Thats clear.

The "spear of jesus" is a relic, it contains NO power or principle, nothing to have faith in. It has nothing for anyone.

The Bible on the other hand in NOT relic, it contains principles, power, knowlege, information that can be tested/lived etc etc

As stated, your assertion that adoring a relic such as this spear is the same as faith in or following the Bible is not true. Theyre not even remotely close or the same. Period.

Seems quite clear to me.

[blacknightteg]

if idolism, or what ever it is called is bad in the church, then why the hell do we have a bible? because like you say if we worship the bible in a certain way, were contradicting our own belief systems

[metalman]

if idolism, or what ever it is called is bad in the church, then why the hell do we have a bible? because like you say if we worship the bible in a certain way, were contradicting our own belief systems

Catholics worship all kinds of things, dead people, popes, saints, statues, relics etc etc and you name it.
Christians, as defined by the Bible, do not.

Christians accept the counsel and instruction of the entire Bible and live by it. Thats not worship.

The catholic church on the other hand take a few parts of the Bible that suit the sitting pope/cardinals and edit and alter it to suit them, then primarily substitute "tradition" for Biblical teaching.

Jesus Christ condemns substituting tradition for Scripture.

is the bible/spear a relic. Yes
can you put faith in the bible/spear. Yes
can you worship the bible/spear. Yes

True. However...
Do Christians as (defined by the Bible) worship either the Bible or relics? No.
Even bowing to an angel is wrong let alone some museum relic or book. Do true Christians accept and following the counsel/instruction of Bible? Yes.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" - The Creator

[4dmin]

True. However...
Do Christians as (defined by the Bible) worship either the Bible or relics? No.
Even bowing to an angel is wrong let alone some museum relic or book. Do true Christians accept and following the counsel/instruction of Bible? Yes.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" - The Creator

whether you like to believe it or not Christians do worship the Bible. don't people bow their head to pray? yes.

[noodle]

whether you like to believe it or not Christians do worship the Bible. don't people bow their head to pray? yes.

????
What metalman has been trying to explain to you is obviously going in one ear and out the other.
To worship the bible you'd put it up on an alter, pray to "IT", ask it for forgiveness, etc.....
Christians use the bible to learn, study, and become insprired about god.

and to blacknightteg.....you need to study world history and theology because that's exactly what a lot of catholics have been doing for 2000 years.

[4dmin]

????
What metalman has been trying to explain to you is obviously going in one ear and out the other.
To worship the bible you'd put it up on an alter, pray to "IT", ask it for forgiveness, etc.....
Christians use the bible to learn, study, and become insprired about god.

and to blacknightteg.....you need to study world history and theology because that's exactly what a lot of catholics have been doing for 2000 years.

wow another h8ter... i guess you missed the post w/ the definition of worship

worship: The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

if your dont' have love/devotion for the bible... please explain to me what it is, b/c christians try to base their life on a book... call it what you want but its worship :jerkit:

Youre a pretty smart guy on many things but this one is evidently over your head

bahhh again i'm over my head... hello your the one stumbling over your own words... talking about how christians don't do this and that, yet they do... i think you should possilby have the head up your ass examined by a professional

[metalman]

whether you like to believe it or not Christians do worship the Bible. don't people bow their head to pray? yes.

Youre a pretty smart guy on many things but this one is evidently over your head OR perhaps you just have no frame of personal reference. Maybe you were raised in some church where everything "of god" or assoicated with Him was "revered" or worshipped. I dont know.

I DO know that bowing your head to pray to God isnt worshiping the Bible.

The concept has been very clearly explained, I am sorry youre not getting it.

As noodle said...in one ear and out the other.

[blacknightteg]

Catholics worship all kinds of things, dead people, popes, saints, statues, relics etc etc and you name it.
Christians, as defined by the Bible, do not.

Christians accept the counsel and instruction of the entire Bible and live by it. Thats not worship.

The catholic church on the other hand take a few parts of the Bible that suit the sitting pope/cardinals and edit and alter it to suit them, then primarily substitute "tradition" for Biblical teaching.

you are mistaken abou that, people of the catholic faith, do not worship, pop's, saints, dead people, and or all kinds of things. when it comes to people, they look to them for guidance, or just as a good symbol of the faith. they do not look at the pop and worship, they do not look at saints and worship and same for other important dead religious historical figures. as for relics, like the spear, arch of covanent, holy grail. those 2 are not worshipped, they are only looked upon as relics of the religious history. those relics which have not been found, are means to the findings of the truth of our religions. not finding these religious articles/relics leeps people wandering, but does not make them worship.

[metalman]

you are mistaken abou that, people of the catholic faith, do not worship, pop's, saints, dead people, and or all kinds of things. when it comes to people, they look to them for guidance, or just as a good symbol of the faith. they do not look at the pop and worship, they do not look at saints and worship and same for other important dead religious historical figures. .

I can definitely say that I am not mistaken about the churches position on these subjects. I will tell you, I am not new to to this subject and I don't throw any of this out as some baseless accusation or cut aimed at sincere roman catholic people/individuals.

Also, I have stated clearly before and say so again, there are MANY fine and decent sincere people in the catholic church who live up to the light they know.

It may be very well true that certain catholic individuals do not totally follow all catholic teachings. If so thats fine...good even. I am not going to condemn or judge any individual but when asked or the subject is brought up I will not hesitate to point out the ridiclous non-Biblical teachings of the roman catholic church/system, to do so would be less then honest.

[4dmin]

relic: Something that has survived the passage of time,

faith: Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

worship: The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

is the bible/spear a relic. Yes
can you put faith in the bible/spear. Yes
can you worship the bible/spear. Yes

[4dmin]

Christians (in the true sense) do NOT base their beliefs on relics

The Bible on the other hand in NOT relic

hmm the bible isn't a relic... ok ... lets see what you finally posted once the definition of a reilic/faith/worship was posted:

True. However...
Do Christians as (defined by the Bible) worship either the Bible or relics? No.

wow the bible has a different definition of worship ok so what your saying is you worship the bible as i stated yet not as described in bible... sounds like idolatry to me and what did you say about idolatry

Again, Christians shun the practice of idolotry. Period.

i·dol·a·try ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-dl-tr)
n. pl. i·dol·a·tries
1) Worship of idols.
2) Blind or excessive devotion to something.

well looks like your eating your words again...

You can worship just the Author/Creator without even a copy of Scripture.

ok, so why again are you using a RELIC as your basis of your faith/worship?

again let me quote myself on a previous post you didn't answer:

"ok if you were to worship GOD and GOD alone, not mans interpetation of, then you would not need a relic/idol such as a cross or a bible to have a relationship w/ GOD. You express previously in the thread how you as the example "christian" shun upon such; yet you are doing it yourself. this is a perfect example of how alot of christians express their views picking and chooseing what is/isn't ok. you can take faith in a book, but people can't take faith in a religous artifacts YOUR book so describes."