Spear of Jesus (Discorvery special)

[metalman]

admin, I may be wrong, perhaps you may be dumber then I thought you were. The concept is so simple yet seems beyond you.

Here is how it works. I will put this into automotive terms since this is an automotive board.

Lets say you have a problem with your Honda (since the the majority on IA drive Hondas...lets say its the Honda XX500 with the 2.4 turbo. (fake model for sake of this discussion only)

You indicate her on IA that you have fueling issues, pinging, and related problems etc.

So metalman being the nice guy that he is, posts on IA that his father Metalman Sr. works for Honda and is the cheif designer and engineer for the systems on the XX500 2.4 turbo. Furthermore, Metalman posts 5 steps that he says his father has told him that will troubleshoot and fix your issue.

Now admin being a novice and not knowing how to fix his XX500 decides to try those steps and TEST them to see if they will work. He does so and finds his XX500 now runs perfectly.

Lets say that a month later admin has another problem with his XX500. Where do you think he might look for help??? Right! You guessed it, right back to IA to metalman to see what his father had to say. If admin repeated this process several times, always with the same result, some tangible instructions that lead to fixing the problem, he would undoubtedly have some "faith" or regard for what are supposed to be the WORDS of Metalman Sr, even though he never met him in person. Why??? Because they are tangible instructions that one can USE and TEST and they WORKED!

By trying the advice written would admin be worshipping the thread those instructions were posted in?????? NOOOOOOOO!
By reading the thread would he be worshiping metalman who wrote them in the thread????? NOOOOOOO!!
Would admin then request a picture of Metalman Sr so that he could pray to it???
NOOOOO!!!
Would admin then pray to IA or worship the server on which it resides since thats where the useful instructions on fixing his Honda were found???
NOOOO!!!
Admin would simply be pulling his novice head out of his ass and following some advice, counsel, instruction that was beneficial to him. That would be the SMART thing to do.

Same with the Bible. Its tangible council, useful information, beneficial to the reader but of no benefit to those who never read or TEST or TRY its counsel.

Christians DO NOT worship the Bible. It is NOT a relic of useless wood, ivory, or stone.
It is a written Book that contains many useful principles that can help one make their life "run right". Their faith is NOT in the Book itself but in the its Author, whom theyve never met in person but who's WORDS and information they have found time and time again to be tangible and to ACTUALLY WORK and benefit them, just like admins "faith" that Metalman Sr knows Honda XX500s.

[babygurl]

I honestly do Believe in God, and in the bible...But to be honest I can see how Paul or someone else would view the Bible as a relic, its all depends on how you look at it.

Also I can see Metalmans point of view...which I agree with, but you both have good points on this subject.

And the Catholic Church has always put their own spin on things...Worshipping a stone, or fork is ridiculous. Also Following rules in the bible is not worshipping its following laws/commandments that were set, as the governemnt did on us...

I mean if you follow the rules is that worshipping the laws that the government set?

[4dmin]

i'm going to quote you again for posting one thing and saying another

Christians DO NOT worship the Bible. It is NOT a relic of useless wood, ivory, or stone.
It is a written Book that contains many useful principles that can help one make their life "run right". Their faith is NOT in the Book itself but in the its Author, whom theyve

Again, Christians shun the practice of idolotry. Period.
Christians do not get their faith from relics but from a relationship with Christ and His Word.

i don't know where you get your definitions from but here they are again for the 3x time:

relic: Something that has survived the passage of time,

faith: Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

worship: The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

idolatry: blind or excessive devotion to something.

is the bible a relic YES, can you have faith in the bible YES, is your faith based on the bible YES, by definition do you worship/idolatry the bible YES, if i asked any christian off the street DO YOU WORSHIP THE BIBLE? YES would be the answer.

again here we go... you said "CHRISTIAN DO NOT" get faith from relics... yet they do... you then after i posted the definitions said i was correct. I think you need to have your head examined.

what christians should/shouldn't do isn't the point.... you said they don't and that is false. its that some chrsitans do and they may do it unknownly... look at Hitler and many before him who used the spear for power that is no different then people using the bible for power. our own president invokes the word of the bible as much as he can to command the legions of faith to do his biding.

furthermore if your faith was in the "author" of the book then what is the book for... why is your faith based on the book? why do you use practices that are in the book? what is the point of the book which is a relic if it is not needed. you can have a relationship w/ your "author" w/o the book. basiclly you would have no faith w/o the book.

[metalman]

[b]

blah blah blah

It has been explained clear enough so that even a child should be able understand.

I get it. Youre confused and have no grasp of this concept or are simply rebelling against it. You ask the same questions over and over that have already been answered. Obviously you don't understand it. All the twisting you can do of the words written here changes nothing. Perhaps one day the light will come on for you.

I sure hope for your sake it does.

[4dmin]

It has been explained clear enough so that even a child should be able understand.

I get it. Youre confused and have no grasp of this concept or are simply rebelling against it. You ask the same questions over and over that have already been answered. Obviously you don't understand it. All the twisting you can do of the words written here changes nothing. Perhaps one day the light will come on for you.

I sure hope for your sake it does.

spare me your bullshit, the differance between me and you is i know for a fact if i'm wrong i will burn, you on the other hand hold your self in such high regards that you can't see you need your faith more than me. that is just sad.

[metalman]

spare me your bullshit, the differance between me and you is i know for a fact if i'm wrong i will burn, you on the other hand hold your self in such high regards that you can't see you need your faith more than me. that is just sad.

Judging others is a ability known only to our Creator...and you arent Him.
But FYI, for the record, I dont hold myself in high regard...I regard myself as the worst sinner on this entire board.

go ask your neighbor if he/she worships the bible... do i even need to wait for the answer to that question. ok.

Herein lies the flaw in your reasoning. You keep asking this and saying that most "Christians" would say they worship the Bible.

Two things you obviously dont know or understand....

1. The truth is NEVER determined by vote or majority opinion. NEVER EVER has it been, NOR will it ever be.

The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. No consensus of opinion by any number of people changes that! God has set forth a a truth, people either understand and acknowlege it to whatever degree, or they don't. Their consensus of opinion with regard to that truth changes NOTHING. What people SAY or BELIEVE about the truth changes the truth NOT ONE BIT.

2. The fact the many so called christians might say they worship the Bible or even a relic for that matter is proof of the the truth of the Bible and its prophecys.

The Bible identifies a condition which exists on the earth. That condition is called "babylon"...which literally means confusion, spiritual confusion. The fact that many so called christians might be confused about worship, where to worship, what to worship, whom to worship, is nothing new. God issues a call..."come out of babylon (confusion)...come out of her MY people..." God knows he has faithful people who are caught up in various demonational confusion and doctrine. He calls them into a greater knowlege and understanding of TRUTH....His Word contains that pathways to that knowlege...its there for ANYBODY that WANTS it.

[metalman]

As for idolotry & blasphemy in the catholic system...where do I begin?? Its endless!

Here are a couple things for starters....


"Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear thee words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion, and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to the most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since She has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotton Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard"
- Apostolic Constitution Defining the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, of Pope Pius IX

NOTE, the title "Queen of Heaven" refers to Ishtar, Ashtoreth, Astarte and the other pagan deities. Such "worship" is identified in the Bible as forsaking God and idolotry.


"Moreover it is not only lawful to have images in the Church and to pay them honor and worship. Such, then, are the fundamental laws for the government of the Papal Church about the worship of images. From the very start, it was not mere honor to the pictures or statues of saints; Charlemagne was willing to render that; it was the veneration, adoration, the burning of incense, worship. To promote the worship of images, wonderful prodigies were narrated about them." -Catechism of the Council of Trent.

"I most firmly assert, that the images of Christ, of the Mother of God, ever virgin, and also of the other saints, ought to be had and retained, and that due honor and veneration are to be given them.” - Creed of Pope Pius IV.


NOTE - The statue of "Peter" (which is not peter but actually Jupiter a pagan god) in the Vatican has the toes worn away on it from people bowing before it and kissing it. If that isnt worship what is??!!

Included are a couple pics of John Paul II bowing before idols of 'Mary'.
He strongly endorsed prayers to "Mary" ....which is idolotry to a Christian.

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." - God

[Xan]

I'm not a Christian nor have I read the bible, but what Metalman is saying makes perfect sense. Christians don't worship the "book." They worship what it teachs. Sure the bible was written by men, but according to Christian belief it was God who gave these words to man. The cross is a symbol of faith not to be worshiped, but to serve as a reminder that God gave his only son for the sins of mankind. I don't see how worshiping the Bible and worshiping the word of God, (even though it is found in the Bible), can be seen as the same thing.

[4dmin]

I'm not a Christian nor have I read the bible, but what Metalman is saying makes perfect sense. Christians don't worship the "book." They worship what it teachs. Sure the bible was written by men, but according to Christian belief it was God who gave these words to man. The cross is a symbol of faith not to be worshiped, but to serve as a reminder that God gave his only son for the sins of mankind. I don't see how worshiping the Bible and worshiping the word of God, (even though it is found in the Bible), can be seen as the same thing.

again i never said you put the book on an alter and pray to the book... that is easy to grasp, but the point is people do worship the bible, they may not know it but they do. read the definition of worship and don't tell me it doesn't fit like a glove. its like saying the bible isn't a relic... umm ok, i guess they must have different dictionarys for christians b/c they obviously don't have the same meaning w/ words in the english language.

go ask your neighbor if he/she worships the bible... do i even need to wait for the answer to that question. ok.

[Xan]

again i never said you put the book on an alter and pray to the book... that is easy to grasp, but the point is people do worship the bible, they may not know it but they do. read the definition of worship and don't tell me it doesn't fit like a glove. its like saying the bible isn't a relic... umm ok, i guess they must have different dictionarys for christians b/c they obviously don't have the same meaning w/ words in the english language.

go ask your neighbor if he/she worships the bible... do i even need to wait for the answer to that question. ok.

My neighbors woship God. People don't pray to the Bible. People don't ask the Bible for forgiveness. The Bible may be a relic to some, but Metalman pointed out that "Christians" in the generic sense don't worship the Bible. They worship it's teachings because they were supposedly handed down by God. Muslims journey to wherever to worship a meteor. They see it as the symbol of the faith. It defines their God. The Christian Bible doesn't define their God. It only represents what he teaches. Saying that reading a book in search of answers is "worship" of said book is absurd. I read History books in search of the past. Does that mean I worship my history book? Do people worship self help books because they read them in search of ways to enrich their lives?

[4dmin]

My neighbors woship God. People don't pray to the Bible. People don't ask the Bible for forgiveness. The Bible may be a relic to some, but Metalman pointed out that "Christians" in the generic sense don't worship the Bible. They worship it's teachings because they were supposedly handed down by God. Muslims journey to wherever to worship a meteor. They see it as the symbol of the faith. It defines their God. The Christian Bible doesn't define their God. It only represents what he teaches. Saying that reading a book in search of answers is "worship" of said book is absurd. I read History books in search of the past. Does that mean I worship my history book? Do people worship self help books because they read them in search of ways to enrich their lives?

well i didn't ask you what you think their answer was i asked what their answer was? that is my point any christian will say they worship the bible. its not that hard of a question.

metalman said the bible isn't a relic nor do christians have faith in it, so i don't think you read the entire thread. there is a difference between the bible and your HS history book. you would not worship your history book b/c it isn't a book of faith. if your history book was the gateway to your god and it was a religious relic then yes you would worship it.

[Xan]

well i didn't ask you what you think their answer was i asked what their answer was? that is my point any christian will say they worship the bible. its not that hard of a question.

metalman said the bible isn't a relic nor do christians have faith in it, so i don't think you read the entire thread. there is a difference between the bible and your HS history book. you would not worship your history book b/c it isn't a book of faith. if your history book was the gateway to your god and it was a religious relic then yes you would worship it.

That is the answer from 4 of my co-workers. Maybe you should amend your question if you don't like the answer. "Do you worship God or the Bible?" Your assumption that I "assumed" what their answers would be shows that you are firm in your standing and have no intent of changing your views. That said, why are we still arguing about this? You can't "unknowingly" worship something. If you can give me one instance of anyone "not knowing they worship something, but they do" then it will validate your argument much more. Worship is all in the intention. When you worship something you'll know.

[metalman]

People don't pray to the Bible. People don't ask the Bible for forgiveness.

Indeed!!!!!

The Christian Bible doesn't define their God. It only represents what he teaches. Saying that reading a book in search of answers is "worship" of said book is absurd. I read History books in search of the past. Does that mean I worship my history book? Do people worship self help books because they read them in search of ways to enrich their lives?

Well put. I read and study history intently...I certainly don't worship it.
As has been said, those who don;t know their history are likely to repeat it!
Same with the history contained in the Bible.

[4dmin]

Judging others is a ability known only to our Creator...and you arent Him.

a serious question how do you know? maybe i am and i'm playing as the devil's advocate to push you into my grace? so practice what you preach... your not all knowing so i guess you can't say what i am/am not.

1. i'm not talking opinion on the matter, i asked you to ask any christian w/o previous knowlege of this thread... you and i both know the outcome it doesn't take rocket science.

2. ok so if your book(relic) that you have so much faith in describes exactly what i said how can you can christians DO NOT worship the bible. is it possible? yes. do you know all christians? no. ok.

[biblethumper]

[QUOTE=admin]a serious question how do you know? maybe i am and i'm playing as the devil's advocate to push you into my grace? so practice what you preach... your not all knowing so i guess you can't say what i am/am not.[QUOTE]

You are right we dont know if you are or aren't. That is the whole point of faith.

If you are and you are testing us then I hope that we are doing a good job of standing up for our beliefs.

People are brought up in different ways. Baptists, Methodist, Pentecostals are all Christians they just do it in different ways.

[4dmin]

[QUOTE=biblethumper][QUOTE=admin]a serious question how do you know? maybe i am and i'm playing as the devil's advocate to push you into my grace? so practice what you preach... your not all knowing so i guess you can't say what i am/am not.

You are right we dont know if you are or aren't. That is the whole point of faith.

If you are and you are testing us then I hope that we are doing a good job of standing up for our beliefs.

People are brought up in different ways. Baptists, Methodist, Pentecostals are all Christians they just do it in different ways.

i like you already, gotta a sense of humor +20

Ok I just asked a girl that I work with who has no idea about this site if she worshiped the Bible and immediately she answered no. Would you like me to ask some more people? I work for a Christian Organization and I can get you any answer to any Christian based question that you ask!

so do i and well all know there will ultimately be yes/no everything is persective... how the question is asked, who asked it, etc?

[metalman]

a serious question how do you know? maybe i am and i'm playing as the devil's advocate to push you into my grace? so practice what you preach... your not all knowing so i guess you can't say what i am/am not.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits" (works)

Jesus Christ/God is NEVER an advocate of the devil. Period.
There is absolutely no question that you are NOT God or any part of him.
I can see clearly you are His created and at least somewhat confused child.
Thats not judging you. Thats knowing what is revealed.

1. i'm not talking opinion on the matter, i asked you to ask any christian w/o previous knowlege of this thread... you and i both know the outcome it doesn't take rocket science.

Allready answered this, apparently you skipped it or didnt understand it.
So called Christians opinions of truth, or habits, do NOT change what the truth is. Period. Even if 50,000,000 people have the same opinion that means NOTHING!!! All are either in harmony with TRUTH or NOT. Period.

2. ok so if your book(relic) that you have so much faith in describes exactly what i said how can you can christians DO NOT worship the bible. is it possible? yes. do you know all christians? no. ok.

Like noodle said yesterday...with you it's -in one ear and out the other.
The answer to this was ALSO given. Please re-read the Honda repair anaology. The answer is right there in front of you.
Following the tried and tested counsel/direction/insight/knowlege of the Bible is no more worshiping it then you taking counsel/direction/insight/advice on how to fix your car. Period.

[babygurl]

Paul you bring up good points in a lot of your debates about religion...

As far as worshipping the bible, and having faith in its teachings....

worship- wor·ship ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wûrshp)
n.

The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
Ardent devotion; adoration.
often Worship Chiefly British. Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.

v. wor·shiped, or wor·shipped wor·ship·ing, or wor·ship·ping wor·ships or wor·ships
v. tr.
To honor and love as a DEITY.
To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1.

v. intr.
To participate in religious rites of worship.
To perform an act of worship.

de·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-t, d-)
n. pl. de·i·ties
A god or goddess.

The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.
Deity God. Used with the.

Bi·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bbl)
n.

The sacred book of Christianity, a collection of ancient writings including the books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The Hebrew Scriptures, the sacred book of Judaism.
A particular copy of a Bible: the old family Bible.
A book or collection of writings constituting the sacred text of a religion.
often bible A book considered authoritative in its field: the bible of French cooking.


The American Dictionary describes the Bible as a sacred text of religion. And honestly I see where Paul gets his opinon from. Christains have faith in God as well as the teachings that are in the bible itself. So I can see where he says you worship a book.relic. And technically speaking the bible is old, so therefore it is a relic.

rel·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rlk)
n.
Something that has survived the passage of time, especially an object or custom whose original culture has disappeared: “Corporal punishment was a relic of barbarism” (Cyril Connolly).
Something cherished for its age or historic interest.
An object kept for its association with the past; a memento.
An object of religious veneration, especially a piece of the body or a personal item of a saint.
or relics A corpse; remains

The bible itself, has survived 1000's of years. So there for it is a relic. But its also a tool to be used in daily life, a guidance if you will... Also the bible is just like the Laws we have set forth by the Government. I have faith in the laws that we have, well most anyways....lol...But do I pray to the President of the US...NO, do I love the Governemt and have devotion to it. I am citzen of the US so there for I have a likeness for the country itself. And what we stand for Freedom.

I believe in the words, and teachings the Bible offers. I believe in God. I pray to God.

Metalman - you say that Christains shun the worship of objects..What about the Crosses that people hang into their houses, believing that it will protect them from evil, it being blessed by holy water? Isnt that putting faith into a object if you twist it the correct way. There are many interpretations of what worshipping is, and what is being a good Christain.

Again I see both points...

[metalman]

Metalman - you say that Christains shun the worship of objects..What about the Crosses that people hang into their houses, believing that it will protect them from evil, it being blessed by holy water? Isnt that putting faith into a object if you twist it the correct way. There are many interpretations of what worshipping is, and what is being a good Christain.

...

The Bible defines that as idolotry. The fact the people practice it makes it no less so. Also the fact they THINK its not doesnt change it from being idolotry either.

Furthermore the cross is the oldest pagan symbol known in history and is only an emblem of torture and shame. We could fill this server with the study of the pagan sun cross itself.

So, what you have are...1. people that KNOW it is idolotry but don't care, or make rationalizations because of their denominational practice etc, 2. sincere people that honestly don't realize their religious practice is idolotry and will CHANGE the minute they find out and understand, 3. people who have already learned that it is idolotry and will not do so under any circumstances.

As to who is who, God will be the Judge.

[babygurl]

The Bible defines that as idolotry. The fact the people practice it makes it no less so. Also the fact they THINK its not doesnt change it from being idolotry either.

Furthermore the cross is the oldest pagan symbol known in history and is only an emblem of torture and shame. We could fill this server with the study of the pagan sun cross itself.

So, what you have are...1. people that KNOW it is idolotry but don't care, or make rationalizations because of their denominational practice etc, 2. sincere people that honestly don't realize their religious practice is idolotry and will CHANGE the minute they find out and understand, 3. people who have already learned that it is idolotry and will not do so under any circumstances.

As to who is who, God will be the Judge.

Well since you seem to think you know so much about religion, I havent seen you post up exactly what your religion is if any?

I have seen first hand, where catholics put a cross in their house, as protection!! And you are correct God will be the Judge...espeically if you past judgement against others

[metalman]

Well since you seem to think you know so much about religion, I havent seen you post up exactly what your religion is if any?

I have seen first hand, where catholics put a cross in their house, as protection!! And you are correct God will be the Judge...espeically if you past judgement against others

Christian.

I have also seen firsthand where catholics and many others, baptists, pentecostals, you name it, engage in idolotry too. So what?

The cross protects NOTHING. It is a pagan symbol of sun worship. It was sign of the Roman gods and as such was the reason it was used for crucifixions. Each was considered a sacrfice to the sun god.

[babygurl]

Christian.

I have also seen firsthand where catholics and many others, baptists, pentecostals, you name it, engage in idolotry too. So what?

The cross protects NOTHING. It is a pagan symbol of sun worship. It was sign of the Roman gods and as such was the reason it was used for crucifixions. Each was considered a sacrfice to the sun god.

hmmmm nice...

[4dmin]

^ thank you.

[babygurl]

^ thank you.

now give me rep points....LOL

I am not trying to put down people for their religion beliefs, or non beliefs, but pushing this, and insulting people isnt very christain like either... and I also feel that you should understand, others and respect peoples beliefs...and maybe educate them on what the Bible's teachings are. That doesnt mean they have to accept it either.

but that is just My 2 cents

[4dmin]

now give me rep points....LOL

I am not trying to put down people for their religion beliefs, or non beliefs, but pushing this, and insulting people isnt very christain like either... and I also feel that you should understand, others and respect peoples beliefs...and maybe educate them on what the Bible's teachings are. That doesnt mean they have to accept it either.

but that is just My 2 cents

i agree but me/metalman just have a -/+ friendship on here

+20

[babygurl]

i agree but me/metalman just have a -/+ friendship on here

+20

kids play nice

[biblethumper]

Ok I am NOT going to read this whole thing. I have read parts. I am sure that there are "Christians" who do worship the Bible. But if you have studied it at all you will know that the disciples who wrote the Bible were inspired by God. No God did not physically write the Bible Himself but He did write it through others.

I believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by the insiration of God

[yerrow]

Ok I am NOT going to read this whole thing. I have read parts. I am sure that there are "Christians" who do worship the Bible. But if you have studied it at all you will know that the disciples who wrote the Bible were inspired by God. No God did not physically write the Bible Himself but He did write it through others.

I believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by the insiration of God

then why does the new testament contradict itself so many times and so obviously. you cannot read many of the gospels and and not realize that they are inconsistent and blatantly contardictory

[biblethumper]

Ok I just asked a girl that I work with who has no idea about this site if she worshiped the Bible and immediately she answered no. Would you like me to ask some more people? I work for a Christian Organization and I can get you any answer to any Christian based question that you ask!

[biblethumper]

I am not here to judge anyone on their beliefs but I am going to stand up for mine. I believe in a God that loves everyone the same. If you chose not to believe in Him that is your right. You get what I'm trying to say?

[biblethumper]

I do not have any crosses in my house.

[smk417]

back to catholic relics if u look around the world many churches claim to have the exact same relics. they are little more then a marketing ploy to bring in new members and keep old ones. also about catholics worshiping abunch of people and objects aswell as God, the discovery channle did a show about the ten commandments and explained what each one really ment. and they said the commandment that stated "tho shall have no god before me" was saying that u could worship other things and gods but u could not put any of them befor the one true God. so as assinine as it is its technically not a sin.

[Stormhammer]

hmm, i skipped alot of the latter part, butt

Things like the Bible, Cross, Spear - to me, they're icons/symbols in the Christian faith. They of course all hold a significance ( speaking historically here ) as well as sometimes meanings ( i.e. the cross can hold a meaning as a symbol )

And yes, the Bible will be newer than the spear - in fact the Guntenberg (sp?) bible was the first published book available to the public ( somewhere around 1450 - late 15th century at least )

as for knocking on the catholic church, its not my intention. i'm just speaking from my view, that at some points in history the church was corrupt ( I mean back in the day the pope held ALOT of power ) - for all we know the Illuminati could exist and could very well be holding such relics, or there could be something like Indiana Jones and the carpenters cup be hidden in some canyon. To me, that's a problem. You can't really know WHERE something is and if its the real and original that was made oh, 1,000, 2,000 years ago - catch my drift? I can understand why they test religion with science , to find more truth for historical purposes ( hey, if that spear isnt as old as it should, maybe its not the true spear - what if the catholic church had it stolen and it symbolizing what it did, the church couldn't risk having the loss known so they made a "replica" and thats what we have at the moment that was tested - catch my drift? )

[Romeyo07]

please show me one you can think of off the top of your head

[StupidBikerBoy]

Admin and Babygurl,

I think the one thing that you to keep missing from Metalman is that it doesn't matter if Bob down the street or even the neighborhood pastor says they worship the bible (or anything else other than God), it is not a part of what true christian beliefs are.

I am undecided, and I'm usually on the other side of these arguements, but to be truely open-minded you must listen.

It doesn't matter what anyone does or says around you, that does not change what is written in the bible. The one thing that does change, is what each individual takes from the bible.

[yerrow]

please show me one you can think of off the top of your head

mathew says jesus was an aristocrat, if not a legitimate king descended from david via solomon.
and its from luke that we got the idea of jesus being a "poor carpenter"

according to john, the crucifiction was the day before passover
according to john, luke, and mathew it was the day AFTER.

mathew and mark say that jesus' last words were "my god, why hast thou forsaken me?"
luke says that it was "father into thy hands i commend my spirit"
and john says" it is finished"

i am definitley not trying to discount the bible, but within the old and new testament many gospels and books have been edited and revised or left out altogether through time

[b18hb]

mathew says jesus was an aristocrat, if not a legitimate king descended from david via solomon.
and its from luke that we got the idea of jesus being a "poor carpenter"

according to john, the crucifiction was the day before passover
according to john, luke, and mathew it was the day AFTER.

mathew and mark say that jesus' last words were "my god, why hast thou forsaken me?"
luke says that it was "father into thy hands i commend my spirit"
and john says" it is finished"

i am definitley not trying to discount the bible, but within the old and new testament many gospels and books have been edited and revised or left out altogether through time

Read Matthew Chapters 1 and 2. It tells the story of Jesus's birth, and gives the geneology. I didn't read anything about him being an aristrocrat. It also says he was the son of Mary, who did descend from David, and even Abraham before that. Everything is consistant between Matthew and Luke, including the birthplace and events surrounding it.

Also, Unless Matthew was written out of chronological order (which it wasn't), Chapter 26 starting at verse 17 goes into detail about the passover, where Jesus talks about one of his deciples betraying him (Judas). You can then read about the crucifixion in Matthew 27 verse 32 and following. The book of mark agrees in Chapters 14 and 15, Luke in chapters 22 and 23, and John in chapters 13 and 19. There is no difference among them.

The four books do disagree on what Jesus actually said right before he died, but they all agree about the people in attendence, the comments of the Guard in charge of removing his body from the cross, and other events surrounding his death. The words were written by people and can vary depending on what each person interpreted. But if you compare the different testimonies by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the overall theme and impact of the events described are consistant in all of them.

[b18hb]

Paul, I understand your arguement about worshiping the bible, but what i have noticed is that you are using the definition for the noun form of worship rather than the first verb definition, which is "To honor and love as a deity." This is the definition most people refer to when you say you worship something (ie: worship god, worship pork chops, worship sea cucumbers) I do give you that the second form of the verb worship (To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion.) can be very easily confused with the feelings that many christians have toward the bible.

The thing is (and it was covered earlier) that christians aren't worshiping the bible or even the ideas the bible represents. Yes, christians do hold the words and ideas described in the bible in high regard, but the bible is intended to be used as a guide (a shop manual for life if you will). The bible is a guide that provides an example one should use to devote their life to God.

LoL, it is pretty funny that this discussion evolved from a spear tip though.

[Ran]

it was tested and not old enough to be the spear that pierced jesus... i guess this is why all who held it eventually fell (hitler), it was interesting none the less.

The Longinus Lance was named after the Roman soldier Longinus, who pierced the heart of Jesus while he was on the cross. As the story goes, water spilled from Jesus' wound and splashed across Longinus' face, opening his eyes to a greater reality or something like that. Anyone, he became a prophet and used his lance as a type of relic in his travels. The legend has it that whomever wields the Lance, can not be defeated in battle. Lots of successful conquerers carried it in the past and were either killed or nearly killed once the lance was lost from their possessions. In terms of Hitler possessing the lance, he did. He held it in a vault in France I believe. The vault was liberated by allied forces and three days after it's liberation, Hitler committed suicide.

Take it as you will. I've always thought of it to be a pretty cool artifact.

[BABY J]

Hmmm... in my mind --> anyone with a love for truth outside of himself/herself has to start with NO belief in God, and THEN look for evidence of such a God. That person needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural/spiritual power. All the people I write e-mails to or talk to about their faith are still often are still stuck at this "searching" stage. Me NOT believing in it puts me at a point where I HAVE ARRIVED, while they are still searching. Hmmm. The belief in a higher power, but NOT in "God" (as we know it) is easy for me.

The "I BELIEVE IN GOD" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "I believe there is no God... at least as we know it. I think we ALL as a people have missed the BIG picture.

Having taken that step in the belief of NOTHING, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love... I love blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards --> and that has to be enough for me. Everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more... some HEAVEN when there can be heaven here on Earth at times. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't "need" heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy, and I get to ENjoy it every day.

Believing there's no God (as it is taught) means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness of other people that I can talk to and look at and touch. That's good; b/c it makes me want to be more thoughtful --> I have to try to treat people right the first time around instead of repinting to "God" later on. Why should GOD 4give me for offendign BOB? Shouldn't BOB forgive me himself?

Believing there's no God stops me from being narrow-minded. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we as people can agree on reality, and I can use this reality to keep learning where we are wrong and could all improve. We can all keep adjusting, so we can REALLY learn to communicate no matter where we are from and what we believe in w/ "God" outta the picture. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less (FUCK YOU). But all obscenity in the world is less insulting than, "It's how I was brought up" and "my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, my life, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just "testing us"... that suffering is something we all may be able to help others with in the future. I have seen people cry helplessly in the middle of the street for invisible help from God that never arrives. Some God. But if I believe in US, then WE should come to the rescue of that person in the street. CAUSE GOD IS NOT GOING TO!!! A God, if there was one, would want US to help that man... GET A CLUE!!! No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future... but only if WE as PEOPLE, and I mean ALL FUCKING PEOPLE help EACH OTHER!!!

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and touch/taste that make this life the best life I will ever have... how can "heaven" compare if all of my friends and family will not be there? THIS is likely the best life I will ever have. I SERISOULY doubt the angels can work it like my girl Michelle... LOL.

K, seriously again. If there is a God, I imagine he is laughing at the people who are asking for MORE (heaven, prayers, streets of gold, angels), when he has provided everything that we will ever need RIGHT HERE... each other.