Scripture a day (Islam Edition)

[Sinfix_15]

Got it. All people who do good, live good lives, are always peaceful, and help others, are evil scum if they have any association with any group that ever does evil.
By that understanding - all atheists are now deemed to be serial killers and mass murderers due to guilt by association, right?

I dont view atheist as a group for one. Not believing is not a belief in itself. I am an individual. It's the religious who chose to brand me with a label.

You're taking my comment to the extreme. Not guilty by association, or guilty in any regard. They empower a religious group that is designed to do evil. They are enablers. Islam is what it is, if you chose to cherry pick the good parts and still call yourself a muslim, whether you like it or not, you are empowering those who take islam literally and too the extreme.

Step 1 - What "customs" are you referring to? The rest of it seems to be business as usual. I don't see you changing anything that we already do.
We already try and convict individuals for the crimes that they commit, regardless of any religious rational. We don't try and convict people based upon their religious affiliations though. Would you suggest that we start doing that?
I am not aware of anyone being arrested, tried, or convicted in the US judicial system based upon any Sharia laws, only US federal and state laws. I have never even heard anyone suggest that our courts use Sharia law. Where do you even come up with that statement?

Step 2 is what? What action items do you think that we should implement into law? Genuine interest here.

Our government is for sale to the highest bidder. I have no confidence in it's ability to stand up for traditional american beliefs. Our current president said "the future must not belong to those who slander the profit of islam". By american laws, the profit muhammad is a rapist, pedophile and murderer and the disdain for him is free speech. Step 2 would be to stop the global campaigning and focus on preserving the rights of american citizens. Anyone who enters this country should know that we are a country that doesnt oppress women, force children into marriage, allow husbands to beat their wives or allow people to be disfigured. The campaign should be to condemn these aspects of Islam, not to be tolerant of them. If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech. Our president apologized for a video made by an individual even under the false premise that the video caused americans to be killed in protest. This is the wrong direction for america. Our own government promotes a message that we should be ashamed of our freedom while at the same time apologizing to all of the radicals of the world. I want a president of the united states, not a president of the united nations.

I'm simply asking you how these Muslims fit into your "gran scheme of Islam". That's all. I don't see how Islam can "take over and dominate the world", when their own people aren't even in on it, nor would support any such action.
How would they even coordinate that large of a group of people logistically?

Those people are the pawns. They are the veil that makes people like you defend islam. The islamic extremist do not need to coordinate a large group, thier current model of attack is to push propaganda in hopes of generating lone wolf acts of terrorism. The seed of hate has been planted, it exists in the texts of the Koran. Islam waters those seeds, some grow, some dont. It only takes 1 person..... the boston bombing was acted out by two people, who appeared normal to their friends. They could have easily been one of your friends who you are currently defending. Every time something like that happens everybody says "omg i didnt expect that", why not? it's all laid out by the Koran.

So, based upon your earlier statements, you seem to think that people should need a religious guide (instructions) for being "good people" with morals. I see that most people can't even do the most basic things without some sort of instructions. Just basic cooking of food seems to need detailed instructions on how to make it editable, but somehow you think that these same people that need instructions on how high to turn up the head on their oven are going to be able to make moral judgment calls with no instructions. The same non-church-going people that rob, cheat, kill, steal, etc today with no second thought. I just don't buy it.

governments and religious groups have killed way more people than the nonreligious, yet governments and religions continue to preach that the world would be chaos without either of them.

They observe every peaceful instruction that they are taught, and pray 5 times a day as instructed, but they are just "casual observers", according to you. As long as they don't rape, steal, and kill, they aren't Muslims according to your "rules" - that's about right, isn't it?

Nope, they are not following the instruction of the Koran, they are casual observers who cherry picked from a religion the things they liked and lack the courage to renounce the religion itself. They need to belong to something. It's not easy to admit the simplicity of our existence for some people. These people are ignorant, if not evil. Islam is evil.

[David88vert]

I dont view atheist as a group for one. Not believing is not a belief in itself. I am an individual. It's the religious who chose to brand me with a label.

Atheists are very much a group. There are many organizations of them, complete with lobbying groups. Have you not seen their billboards in Muslim communities?

Stating "there is no god/gods" is a belief. If you said that you didn't know if there was a god/gods, then that would be different.

You're taking my comment to the extreme. Not guilty by association, or guilty in any regard. They empower a religious group that is designed to do evil. They are enablers. Islam is what it is, if you chose to cherry pick the good parts and still call yourself a muslim, whether you like it or not, you are empowering those who take islam literally and too the extreme.

How is it empowering the radicals? Give an example of an actual measurable empowerment.

Our government is for sale to the highest bidder. I have no confidence in it's ability to stand up for traditional american beliefs. Our current president said "the future cant belong to those who slander the profit muhammad. By american laws, the profit muhammad is a rapist, pedophile and murderer and the disdain for him is free speech. Step 2 would be to stop the global campaigning and focus on preserving the rights of american citizens. Anyone who enters this country should know that we are a country that doesnt oppress women, force children into marriage, allow husbands to beat their wives or allow people to be disfigured. The campaign should be to condemn these aspects of Islam, not to be tolerant of them. If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech. Our president apologized for a video made by an individual even under the false premise that the video caused americans to be killed in protest. This is the wrong direction for america. Our own government promotes a message that we should be ashamed of our freedom while at the same time apologizing to all of the radicals of the world. I want a president of the united states, not a president of the united nations.

How much? I want to buy the government. Give me a price and who to make the check out to, since you have decided that the American people no longer elect our government.
( ^ sarcastic comment ^ )

Mohammed never lived in the US - we can't prosecute him. That little tidbit might have escaped your attention.
( ^ sarcastic comment ^ )

"Anyone who enters this country should know that we are a country that doesnt oppress women, force children into marriage, allow husbands to beat their wives or allow people to be disfigured." - I believe that most people already are aware of our laws, and follow them. The crime statistics support it.

"If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech." - My Muslim friends certainly do support the laws of the US, and abide by them. They also support free speech - which I have to wonder if you do. You sound like you would like to ban the Qur'an's teachings in the US, and the rest of the world, if possible.

"Our president apologized for a video made by an individual even under the false premise that the video caused americans to be killed in protest. This is the wrong direction for america. I want a president of the united states, not a president of the united nations." - You should already know that I am fully in agreement with you on this point.

Those people are the pawns. They are the veil that makes people like you defend islam. The islamic extremist do not need to coordinate a large group, theyre current model of attack is to push propaganda in hopes of generating lone wolf acts of terrorism. The seed of hate has been planted, it exists in the texts of the Koran. Islam waters those seeds, some grow, some dont. It only takes 1 person..... the boston bombing was acted out by two people, who appeared normal to their friends. They could have easily been one of your friends who you are currently defending. Every time something like that happens everybody says "omg i didnt expect that", why not? it's all laid out by the Koran.

Stating that people are pawns implies that they are participants on a battlefield, and that they know that (willing participants). That isn't the case. They are not being "moved around" the battlefield, and are not participating in any of the conflict. If anything, they would be spectators in the stands at a football game.

I am not defending Islam. I point out reality and facts, that's it.
These "lone acts of terrorism" - how do they help these radical extremists control and conquer the world? That's what you said that Islam was all about - conquering, dominating, and controlling the world. How did the acts of the Boston bombers advance the radicals in their quest to conquer the US? Show an example of it.

As for my friends, I'm pretty certain that they would not do anything like the Boston bombers. Your attempt to place that kind of guilt by association on them is pretty pathetic.

governments and religious groups have killed way more people than the nonreligious, yet governments and religions continue to preach that the world would be chaos without either of them.

I love when people pretend that without religion or government, everything would be great. It's a myth that is easily dispelled.
Here are six atheists that killed a large amount of people.

Stalin - Estimated to have killed between 20 and 60 million (the higher number is indirect through starvation/hunger)
Pol Pot - Estimated to have killed around 2 million Cambodians (approximately one third of the population).
Mao - Blamed for the deaths of between 20 and 67 million, including 5 million executed in death camps. Another 36 million were persecuted and tortured.
Mussolini - Only around 300,000 - not bad, right?
Napoleon - Estimated 6 million dead Europeans.

None of the above involved religion. These were atheists that killed. And that's just six of them.

Nope, they are not following the instruction of the Koran, they are casual observers who cherry picked from a religion the things they liked and lack the courage to renounce the religion itself. They need to belong to something. It's not easy to admit the simplicity of our existence for some people. These people are ignorant, if not evil. Islam is evil.

So they are evil for doing good, but being associated with Islam?
Your logic is astounding (sarcastic comment).


(Sarcastic comments are marked so you don't waste your time trying to answer them.)

[Sinfix_15]

Atheists are very much a group. There are many organizations of them, complete with lobbying groups. Have you not seen their billboards in Muslim communities?

Stating "there is no god/gods" is a belief. If you said that you didn't know if there was a god/gods, then that would be different.

Can you direct me to the atheist "bible" so i can read it and educate myself on this group i apparently belong to. I'm curious to what our commandments are and if child rape or beheading is allowed.

I clearly renounce being a part of any group. If muslims did the same, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

How is it empowering the radicals? Give an example of an actual measurable empowerment.

Mohammed never lived in the US - we can't prosecute him. That little tidbit might have escaped your attention.
( ^ sarcastic comment ^ )

Neither did Osama Bin Laden.

"If your muslim friends are as peaceful as they claim to be, they will endorse that message as well rather than take steps to protect islam from free speech." - My Muslim friends certainly do support the laws of the US, and abide by them. They also support free speech - which I have to wonder if you do. You sound like you would like to ban the Qur'an's teachings in the US, and the rest of the world, if possible.

I dont want to ban free speech or the Koran. I just dont want it endorsed by my government. A lot of Islamic traditions are illegal in the united states..... how can our government promote tolerance of this criminal activity. It should be condemned. I dont want to see Islam made illegal, i just want the promotion to stop. Rape fetish porn is legal, that doesnt mean our government should promote tolerance of it.

Stating that people are pawns implies that they are participants on a battlefield, and that they know that (willing participants). That isn't the case. They are not being "moved around" the battlefield, and are not participating in any of the conflict. If anything, they would be spectators in the stands at a football game.

They are bushes that the enemy hides in.

I am not defending Islam. I point out reality and facts, that's it.
These "lone acts of terrorism" - how do they help these radical extremists control and conquer the world? That's what you said that Islam was all about - conquering, dominating, and controlling the world. How did the acts of the Boston bombers advance the radicals in their quest to conquer the US? Show an example of it.

You assume that these criminals are rational human beings. The boston bombing was a victory for islamic terrorists. 9/11 was a victory.... the attacks on our embassy are victories....

I love when people pretend that without religion or government, everything would be great. It's a myth that is easily dispelled.
Here are six atheists that killed a large amount of people.

Stalin - Estimated to have killed between 20 and 60 million (the higher number is indirect through starvation/hunger)
Pol Pot - Estimated to have killed around 2 million Cambodians (approximately one third of the population).
Mao - Blamed for the deaths of between 20 and 67 million, including 5 million executed in death camps. Another 36 million were persecuted and tortured.
Mussolini - Only around 300,000 - not bad, right?
Napoleon - Estimated 6 million dead Europeans.

None of the above involved religion. These were atheists that killed. And that's just six of them.

Communist
Communist
Communist
Fascist
Monarch

Ummm...... you saw the part where i said governments right? As much as you want to make people who do not believe in gods a group, they are not. I have nothing in common with any of these individuals and their power stemmed from governing authority. I am a strong advocate against big government and the government's authority to rule over people. Was this comment meant for someone else???

So they are evil for doing good, but being associated with Islam?
Your logic is astounding (sarcastic comment).

Theyre not evil. The religion itself is evil and they have fallen victim to it. You boast the numbers of muslims in america and the number world wide. Because of these numbers they continue to gain political influence. With that political influence, they advance their religion globally. As i already said...... i fear the politician more than the sword or bullet.

[David88vert]

Can you direct me to the atheist "bible" so i can read it and educate myself on this group i apparently belong to. I'm curious to what our commandments are and if child rape or beheading is allowed.

I clearly renounce being a part of any group. If muslims did the same, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

There is no "atheist bible", as you are already aware. Instead, with atheism, anything goes, as there is no accountability or responsibility anymore. As much as you don't like it, Dahmer made the point.

Not being part of a group makes no difference as to whether someone chooses to do evil or good.

(photo of Kerry)

I do not know what you are referring to by this photo. Being near Kerry is hardly a win.

Neither did Osama Bin Laden.

Mohammed never attacked the US, and you would have a hard time finding and killing a man who has been dead for 1500 years.

I dont want to ban free speech or the Koran. I just dont want it endorsed by my government. A lot of Islamic traditions are illegal in the united states..... how can our government promote tolerance of this criminal activity. It should be condemned. I dont want to see Islam made illegal, i just want the promotion to stop. Rape fetish porn is legal, that doesnt mean our government should promote tolerance of it.

Where is the US government promoting criminal activity by Muslims? Please give specific examples that we can ask Congress to act upon.

They are bushes that the enemy hides in.

Please don't dodge - that's what you accuse blank of doing.

You assume that these criminals are rational human beings. The boston bombing was a victory for islamic terrorists. 9/11 was a victory.... the attacks on our embassy are victories....

How did any of these acts get them closer to conquering, dominating, and controlling the world? That is what you stated their goal was. I want you to state specific measureable results that move them closer to this world domination. Make it obvious for us.

Communist
Communist
Communist
Fascist
Monarch

Ummm...... you saw the part where i said governments right? As much as you want to make people who do not believe in gods a group, they are not. I have nothing in common with any of these individuals and their power stemmed from governing authority. I am a strong advocate against big government and the government's authority to rule over people. Was this comment meant for someone else???

You stated governments and religion are doing the killing, making the implication be that if we didn't have either, we would be better off. I am stating that is not true. It appears that you do understand that we need government. What you don't see is that the worst genocides in history happened in the absence of government and religion. Look them up.

All of those leaders that I listed earlier declared that they were atheists. They never claimed to be part of a group, just that they were atheists. They choose to be evil, without religion as an excuse. That has been my point the whole time - people choose their actions, and have to be personally responsible for them.

Theyre not evil. The religion itself is evil and they have fallen victim to it. You boast the numbers of muslims in america and the number world wide. Because of these numbers they continue to gain political influence. With that political influence, they advance their religion globally. As i already said...... i fear the politician more than the sword or bullet.

So, you are saying that you are worried that the peaceful Muslims will take over your government? The ones that live without the same hate that you have for their religion?
2.6 Muslims in the US, out of 314 million people in the US. And you consider them a threat?

[Sinfix_15]

There is no "atheist bible", as you are already aware. Instead, with atheism, anything goes, as there is no accountability or responsibility anymore. As much as you don't like it, Dahmer made the point.

Not being part of a group makes no difference as to whether someone chooses to do evil or good.

lol... "anything goes" without religion... not really worthy of comment.

I do not know what you are referring to by this photo. Being near Kerry is hardly a win.

Political influence is a major victory. Islam has influence within the american government, the strongest nation in the world. That is a victory.

Where is the US government promoting criminal activity by Muslims? Please give specific examples that we can ask Congress to act upon.

Promoting Islam is promoting criminal activity. That is the point. Islam should not be promoted at all. If Muhammad was alive today and living his life the way he preached in the united states... he would be on par with this guy.... and jailed.

How did any of these acts get them closer to conquering, dominating, and controlling the world? That is what you stated their goal was. I want you to state specific measureable results that move them closer to this world domination. Make it obvious for us.

A political foothold is the best strategy for world domination. That is what theyre seeking. We will never fall to warships landing on our beaches.... we can only fall from within. The war is being waged.....


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...as-hezbollah-/

You stated governments and religion are doing the killing, making the implication be that if we didn't have either, we would be better off. I am stating that is not true. It appears that you do understand that we need government. What you don't see is that the worst genocides in history happened in the absence of government and religion. Look them up.

We need limited government that doesnt attempt to control our lives. I'd love to see proof of genocide worse than that of government and religion.

All of those leaders that I listed earlier declared that they were atheists. They never claimed to be part of a group, just that they were atheists. They choose to be evil, without religion as an excuse. That has been my point the whole time - people choose their actions, and have to be personally responsible for them.

They were a part of their governments. There's really not that much difference in religion and government, they both serve relative functions with similar interests. Things become chaotic when either of their roles are not limited. Limited government and limited religion can serve humanity well. It's when they over reach that the problems begin.

So, you are saying that you are worried that the peaceful Muslims will take over your government? The ones that live without the same hate that you have for their religion?
2.6 Muslims in the US, out of 314 million people in the US. And you consider them a threat?

No, i think the 2.6m muslims in america are meek and incapable of separating themselves from the radicals. Even far removed from the oppression and shielded by the safety of american law, they still claim allegiance to the radical religion. In the event the extremist started migrating here, they would have the political support of the muslims that exist here. The hive mind of religious groups is very strong.

[David88vert]

lol... "anything goes" without religion... not really worthy of comment.

It's true - an atheist is accountable to no deity by very definition. Whatever that person sees as good or evil doesn't really matter, they can choose to be evil without worry that it will affect them after death, and if they kill someone else, what does it really matter, since life has no real meaning?

I've given you Dahmer's statement twice earlier in this thread, and you've ignored it twice. You probably need a new thread for atheism, as it's not Islam.

Political influence is a major victory. Islam has influence within the american government, the strongest nation in the world. That is a victory.

President Ronald Reagan met the leaders of the Islamic Jihad at the White House in 1985. Did you believe that they just gained access to the US government after 9/11?

Promoting Islam is promoting criminal activity. That is the point. Islam should not be promoted at all. If Muhammad was alive today and living his life the way he preached in the united states... he would be on par with this guy.... and jailed.
(photo of Ariel Castro)

So, just believing in a religion is now criminal activity? What country do you live in? You might want to move to the US, where we do not criminalize belief in a deity.

If Muhammed was alive today and was living in the US, he would not be prosecuted for his religious beliefs. If he broke the laws of the US, then he would be prosecuted for breaking those laws, as an individual, not the entire religion.

Ariel Castro has nothing to do with Islam, and using his likeness means that you are resorting to sensationalistic tactics that the Democrats love.

A political foothold is the best strategy for world domination. That is what theyre seeking. We will never fall to warships landing on our beaches.... we can only fall from within. The war is being waged.....

I understand what you are trying to say here, and I would agree that radical extremists from all groups (religious and non-religious) recognize that this is the only effective strategy with the US. So, shouldn't the attacks work in the opposite manner - to drive us away from them?

CIA finds 1 in 5 flagged job applicants come from Hamas, Hezbollah, al Qaeda - Washington Times

Don't we do the same to them? Does this report surprise you? We've already agreed that there are radicals out there.

We need limited government that doesnt attempt to control our lives. I'd love to see proof of genocide worse than that of government and religion.

You know that I agree 100% with the underlined statement.

As for the genocides, look up these:
Moriori Genocide - Tribal conflict, wiped out the peaceful group. No government or religion involved.

Rwandan Genocide - The poor rose up and killed the rich, Hundreds of thousands were killed—the preferred method of execution being the machete, as ammunition was too expensive and difficult to come by. Rape, mutilation, and the deliberate spread of disease were also used as tools of terror. Between 500K and 1M died. No religion or government.

Irish Potato Famine - Over 1M died. The wealthy British kicked the poor Irish farmers off the land, and let them starve. I slisted on some (but not all lists) as genocide.

Congoese Pygmy Genocide - Hunted and eaten by the Movement for the Liberation of the Congo during the civil war in the Congo. Still be starved and dying out.

Inca Genocide - Francisco Pizarro slaughtered them for gold and precious metals.

Aztec Genocide - Hernán Cortés slaughtered them for their gold.

American Indian Genocide - Many were slaughtered for land.

There are many more. To blame one thing - government, religion, guns, etc for al the killing is foolish.

They were a part of their governments. There's really not that much difference in religion and government, they both serve relative functions with similar interests. Things become chaotic when either of their roles are not limited. Limited government and limited religion can serve humanity well. It's when they over reach that the problems begin.

On this, we mostly agree. You don't want a government run by religious leaders, or a religion run by the government. That is in line with how the founding fathers setup our American government.

No, i think the 2.6m muslims in america are meek and incapable of separating themselves from the radicals. Even far removed from the oppression and shielded by the safety of american law, they still claim allegiance to the radical religion. In the event the extremist started migrating here, they would have the political support of the muslims that exist here. The hive mind of religious groups is very strong.

You believe that 2.6 million Americans are just suddenly going to turn on everything that they were taught their entire lives, and just fall in line with those who they have disagreed with all their lives? Do you believe that would happen if we substitute "Christians" in place of "Muslims"?

I don't really think that we are going to come to any real agreements or understandings here, so when you are ready to get back to discussion of the scriptures, I will join back in the discussion.

[Sinfix_15]

So, just believing in a religion is now criminal activity? What country do you live in? You might want to move to the US, where we do not criminalize belief in a deity.

If Muhammed was alive today and was living in the US, he would not be prosecuted for his religious beliefs. If he broke the laws of the US, then he would be prosecuted for breaking those laws, as an individual, not the entire religion.

Ariel Castro has nothing to do with Islam, and using his likeness means that you are resorting to sensationalistic tactics that the Democrats love.

Muhammad would be viewed as a pedophile and rapist. He viewed women as objects that he could own and enslave, just like Castro. He would be put in prison, just like Castro.

Sahih chapter 8
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.