Scripture a day (Islam Edition)

[David88vert]

I cant say i agree with that. Also, the reason we're even having this debate to begin with is because the customs of ancient times are still happening today. You still see people get beheaded daily. To me that would be the same as seeing someone get crucified. I dont believe any of these actions were ever acceptable. The fact that religious texts deemed these actions acceptable at any point in time should cast a dark cloud over all religion. You're claiming that these were war time rules but how often throughout history is religion the cause of war.


Moving on from this particular scripture after this.

So you acknowledge that muslims endorsed the beheading and disfigurement of enemy combatants at some point in history and that in modern day time some portion of muslims still practice this belief of beheading and disfiguring enemies? Consider that a rhetorical question, because there's no way to deny it. What i'm looking for is justification for this belief.

How is lethal injection, hanging, firing squad, or the electric chair any more civilized than beheading? The end result is the same - a quick death for those that have committed crimes that call for capital punishment. Are you against all capital crime, or just the ones that you don't like? As for treatment of war prisoners, do you believe that we did not torture Muslims at Gitmo, or the other black sites in Europe? Do you think that US operatives have never cut off fingers to extract information? If you think that the US doesn't torture, I have some seaside property to sell you in Montana.

Religion is not the cause for war. Men using religion in their quest for power and land is the cause of war. Just like a gun cannot shoot someone without a person picking it up and pulling the trigger, a book cannot do anything until someone uses it's writings.

There is no need for justification of belief - we are discussing historical facts, and you keep confusing yourself by trying to apply your current modern beliefs with ancient times.

Since you do not seem to realize this basic concept, you should move onto the next scripture.

[Sinfix_15]

How is lethal injection, hanging, firing squad, or the electric chair any more civilized than beheading? The end result is the same - a quick death for those that have committed crimes that call for capital punishment. Are you against all capital crime, or just the ones that you don't like? As for treatment of war prisoners, do you believe that we did not torture Muslims at Gitmo, or the other black sites in Europe? Do you think that US operatives have never cut off fingers to extract information? If you think that the US doesn't torture, I have some seaside property to sell you in Montana.

Religion is not the cause for war. Men using religion in their quest for power and land is the cause of war. Just like a gun cannot shoot someone without a person picking it up and pulling the trigger, a book cannot do anything until someone uses it's writings.

There is no need for justification of belief - we are discussing historical facts, and you keep confusing yourself by trying to apply your current modern beliefs with ancient times.

Since you do not seem to realize this basic concept, you should move onto the next scripture.

How does pointing out evil excuse other evil? You're saying basically "these people did something evil, so that justifies the evil acts endorses by Islam". You get no argument from me that there's plenty of other evil in the world. Lethal injection is designed to be humane and painless. Beheading, as it is described in the Quran specifically says it is an exhibition meant to strike fear into other enemies.

Why do you need to attach insult into your opinion that i am confusing my current beliefs with ancient times? I cant fathom it ever being normal for someone to cut someone's head off. I dont care what the time period was. I find it even more difficult to comprehend a religion endorsing this behavior, no matter what the time period was.
Is me feeling this way really worthy of criticism? The fact that i cant rationalize religious beheading? Does that make me a bad person? I guess so.

So when a Muslim films himself sawing off the head of an innocent civilian for the sole purpose of mailing it to america, is that not them striking fear into their enemies the same as the Quran described?

Final comment on this scripture. My next post will introduce a new one.

[David88vert]

How does pointing out evil excuse other evil? You're saying basically "these people did something evil, so that justifies the evil acts endorses by Islam". You get no argument from me that there's plenty of other evil in the world. Lethal injection is designed to be humane and painless. Beheading, as it is described in the Quran specifically says it is an exhibition meant to strike fear into other enemies.

Why do you need to attach insult into your opinion that i am confusing my current beliefs with ancient times? I cant fathom it ever being normal for someone to cut someone's head off. I dont care what the time period was. I find it even more difficult to comprehend a religion endorsing this behavior, no matter what the time period was.
Is me feeling this way really worthy of criticism? The fact that i cant rationalize religious beheading? Does that make me a bad person? I guess so.

So when a Muslim films himself sawing off the head of an innocent civilian for the sole purpose of mailing it to america, is that not them striking fear into their enemies the same as the Quran described?

Final comment on this scripture. My next post will introduce a new one.

I did not make the statement that you attempted to attribute to me.

Since you are unable to comprehend historical events - based upon your own statements, then you are unable to continue a rational discussion on this topic.
Perhaps you never wanted a rational discussion.

[Sinfix_15]

I did not make the statement that you attempted to attribute to me.

Since you are unable to comprehend historical events - based upon your own statements, then you are unable to continue a rational discussion on this topic.
Perhaps you never wanted a rational discussion.

Why is it so hard for you to address the information alone? you're railroading this discussion to be about me. I am posting actual scripture and offering my thoughts on it. I offer my thoughts to be critiqued. That is a rational discussion.

So would your explanation of why the radical extremist exist is because they too are not capable of comprehending historical events and are acting out the literal interpretation of what they read in the Quran?

Wrap up your argument on the 1st scripture so we can move on to the next one please.

[David88vert]

Why is it so hard for you to address the information alone? you're railroading this discussion to be about me. I am posting actual scripture and offering my thoughts on it. I offer my thoughts to be critiqued. That is a rational discussion.

So would your explanation of why the radical extremist exist is because they too are not capable of comprehending historical events and are acting out the literal interpretation of what they read in the Quran?

Wrap up your argument on the 1st scripture so we can move on to the next one please.

Your opinion on the first scripture does not take into account history, and you cannot correctly apply your modern day thinking to life 1500 years ago. You are fully entitled to have your own opinion, and you do not have to agree with history and reality, and that appears to be the route that you have chosen to take.

In response to your current question: Yes, radical extremists, by definition, go to the outer fringes in their beliefs, and the majority of Muslims are not radical extremists. EVERY set of beliefs (religious and non-religious) has people that are on the extreme fringes.

[Sinfix_15]

Your opinion on the first scripture does not take into account history, and you cannot correctly apply your modern day thinking to life 1500 years ago. You are fully entitled to have your own opinion, and you do not have to agree with history and reality, and that appears to be the route that you have chosen to take.

In response to your current question: Yes, radical extremists, by definition, go to the outer fringes in their beliefs, and the majority of Muslims are not radical extremists. EVERY set of beliefs (religious and non-religious) has people that are on the extreme fringes.

Sounds like your "reality" is a place where you can make up the rules as you go. Why cant i apply modern thinking to history? Sounds like you're guilty of confusing your own opinions with facts.

How can you say that the extremist are going to the outer fringes of their beliefs? they are the ones following the letter of the law. Beheading and disfigurement is not the "outer fringe", it's Islam. It's part of the religion. It's part of the book.

The natural evolution of things is that with time we have evolved and become more intelligent. With our new found intelligence, we are more civilized. The culmination of that is that most intelligent people learn to put aside religion all together, but to those few who are clinging to it, you cant just rewrite the book and erase the parts of you dont like. I'm aware that 100% of muslims are not evil people and that a portion of them, like christians, follow the moral code laid out and ignore the "fire and brimstone". Islam the religion itself is one of the greatest evils plaguing mankind today. That doesnt mean that every muslim who has fallen victim to it is evil.

Also, who are you to say that the values of islam have changed since acient history?? You say beheading, disfigurement and all of these other war tactics are acient history.....

correct me if im wrong.... isnt there a civil war taking place right now? it is 2013 right?

[David88vert]

Sounds like your "reality" is a place where you can make up the rules as you go. Why cant i apply modern thinking to history? Sounds like you're guilty of confusing your own opinions with facts.

I am not "making up rules". I am remembering that the ancient world did not have the same viewpoints that we do today. I am not condoning their actions, I am simply looking at how the scriptures were written in the context of historical times, of which we have documentation on - that is not "making things up".

I suggest that you do a little research on the times of Mohammed. There are ample resources available, including documentaries.

How can you say that the extremist are going to the outer fringes of their beliefs? they are the ones following the letter of the law. Beheading and disfigurement is not the "outer fringe", it's Islam. It's part of the religion. It's part of the book.

Extremists are on the outer fringes of their beliefs - hence the term, extremist. They are not mainstream to their religion.
Yes, it part of the Islamic scriptures, and as I stated before, how is that any different that what we do now? How is beheading a worse death that electrocution? It just happened to be the popular method of execution in that part of the world at that time.

The natural evolution of things is that with time we have evolved and become more intelligent. With our new found intelligence, we are more civilized. The culmination of that is that most intelligent people learn to put aside religion all together, but to those few who are clinging to it, you cant just rewrite the book and erase the parts of you dont like. I'm aware that 100% of muslims are not evil people and that a portion of them, like christians, follow the moral code laid out and ignore the "fire and brimstone". Islam the religion itself is one of the greatest evils plaguing mankind today. That doesnt mean that every muslim who has fallen victim to it is evil.

That is purely your opinion, and you are welcome to believe that if you like. It has no bearing on the discussion of the Islamic scriptures though, and by your own rules, shouldn't be included in this thread. If this is the route that you wish to go in discussion, then this thread can be locked/deleted/abandoned now.

Also, who are you to say that the values of islam have changed since acient history?? You say beheading, disfigurement and all of these other war tactics are acient history.....

While this is totally off the topic that this thread should be on, let me give you this insight.
My business partner for almost a decade was a devoted Muslim, and I spent a lot of time with his other Muslim friends, business acquaintances, etc. Being around Muslims on a daily basis, for large parts of everyday, gives you an opportunity to see how they are, what they believe, etc. Have you ever been around Muslims everyday for years on end? You make a big deal about your life experiences about your observations of other cultures in other threads - should no one else have this same insight on Muslim cultures? Let me ask you this, how many radical Islamic extremists and/or terrorist have you personally met, and spent time with? What is your knowledge and experience with the Muslim culture based upon?

correct me if im wrong.... isnt there a civil war taking place right now? it is 2013 right?

Yes, there is a civil war in Syria currently, and if we are to believe all of your previous threads, we are on the verge of having one in the US soon as well. Are you aware that the current Mexican Drug War is also listed as a civil war? Last I checked, they don't believe in Islam, and religion is not playing a part in that conflict. What part does the Islamic scriptures play as a cause/reason in the Syrian conflict?

[Sinfix_15]

22 [He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him].
23 And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.
24 But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

What message is being sent when it says that stones are prepared for disbelievers? It basically says, if your god is real, then your god will protect you from being stoned. I also like how this scripture reeks of arrogance. The Quran is full of gamesmanship and has a very condescending way of talking about other religions.

[David88vert]

22 [He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him].
23 And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.
24 But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

What message is being sent when it says that stones are prepared for disbelievers? It basically says, if your god is real, then your god will protect you from being stoned. I also like how this scripture reeks of arrogance. The Quran is full of gamesmanship and has a very condescending way of talking about other religions.

That is a huge surah, and that part is simply a declaration that the message coming from Allah through Mohammed is the truth, and that the Jew of Medina (and everyone else) should believe it as the truth, but they are aware that the ignorant will not believe it to be the truth. Non-believers will suffer the wrath of Allah, and may be stoned basically for the crime of not believing it to be the truth.

What is it exactly that you want to discuss about it? Seems like you are just taking a swipe at belittling their scriptures with your last two sentences, as there is no information that goes towards a talking point.

You did not mention what the surah was, but it is Surah Al-Baqarah.

You might want to consider choosing scriptures that are more discussion worthy, if you original post was intended by you to be genuine.