IA Here is a Serious Question.

[geoff]

thats all evidences are. you first have an idea, you experiment it and then write down your findings.

the law of causality is absolute truth no? the laws of gravity are absolute truth no? yet you cannot physically experience these things. someone long ago did a study, wrote down their findings and it is accepted.

what exactly constitutes proof or evidence to you d993s?

[d993s]

thats all evidences are. you first have an idea, you experiment it and then write down your findings.

the law of causality is absolute truth no? the laws of gravity are absolute truth no? yet you cannot physically experience these things. someone long ago did a study, wrote down their findings and it is accepted.

what exactly constitutes proof or evidence to you d993s?

Evidence thru research and fictional stories are 2 different things.

[geoff]

guys it sucks but some preachers, churches, ect....dont want you to ask because they themselves dont have all the answers.

the only way to trully learn and to understand is to ask and seek. it doesnt make you a non-believer to ask. God wants us to seek and to ask the questions. unfortunately not all believers allow you to do this cuz either they dont know and dont want to seem like they are undeserving of their position or they just dont trully believe.

and to d993s. im suprised that at a young age you read the bible twice, understood it fully, and were able to come to the conclusion that its BS.

[geoff]

and i provided you as others have with evidence through research

[d993s]

and to d993s. im suprised that at a young age you read the bible twice, understood it fully, and were able to come to the conclusion that its BS.

No, it took some time as I grew up and out of all the BS.

[TheProfiteer]

right and wrong are taught to a certian degree. your parents dont teach you everything about it because they are limited to their own experiences.

take this example of a conscience in us: people who die for their beliefs, did their parents tell them thats what is right? or did they make that judgement on their own?

or this example: you have a loved one in the hospital who is on life support. the doctors tell you there is no way they will come back, it is then up to you to decide whether or not to pull the plug. what is right and what is wrong in this situation? can you be taught what to do when you face this? NO...the simple answer is that we each have our own ideas of what is right and wrong. your conscience is much deeper than just dont do this or that. its not all black and white

also my last point on this. you say that right and wrong are taught and that its affected by the social view. who then decided what was right and wrong in the begining? did the first men and women have a meeting to decide this or is it something deeply embedded in each and every one of us?

no man its not embedded within us, only instinct is. Right and wrong are learned concepts. Its part of development as we grow up. Its societal and its subjective.

[d993s]

and i provided you as others have with evidence through research

The only research you've done is in the bible, and as babyj said: you keep using a document to prove itself.
So all you're proving is the belief you have. I'm not doubting that YOU believe, just expecting proof beyond your belief which is only in the mind.

[geoff]

im sorry to hear that man. i have always been encouraged to ask questions. God Himself tells us to ask and ye shall recieve. we are supposed to continue growing in God as He reveals more and more to us.

the point is this...no matter how much evidence there is...it all comes down to how you comprehend and interpret that evidence. its up to you and your faith to believe it or deny it. QD i believe is on the same page as me when it comes to this

[d993s]

You know its funny how someone raised in a christian family is directed in a certain way as to not doubt or ask questions, unless their questions are able to be answered in the bible or by "god"....that is so fucking stupid and I hate all close-minded parents for raising their children that ignorant way, relying on a state of mind rather than explicable facts come to by research in the real world.
Humans have come a long way in the last 200 years. Little by little all this creation and religious BS is being proven to be nothing but fictional stories.

[geoff]

this whole section of the religion forum is full of scientific not biblical evidence. read the thread about jesus being an alien, pg.14 post number 262 and 263. SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

and to the profiteer...you still avoided ansering any of my questions of how we first "learned" right and wrong and how it was decided or ansered my examples.

[d993s]

im sorry to hear that man. i have always been encouraged to ask questions. God Himself tells us to ask and ye shall recieve. we are supposed to continue growing in God as He reveals more and more to us.

the point is this...no matter how much evidence there is...it all comes down to how you comprehend and interpret that evidence. its up to you and your faith to believe it or deny it. QD i believe is on the same page as me when it comes to this

Yeah, that's why there are over 400 different religions and each one of them thinks that every other one is wrong and will burn in hell or not get to fuck 72 virgins or sheep or whatever other nonsense it taught...

[geoff]

on the contrary d993s...as we come further to more understanding science is coming closer to proving or atleast supporting the idea of creation. hence the death of the "big bang theory" and why the theory of "evolution" has to be changed so many times or revised, because it CAN NOT and WILL NOT ever be able to explain the origins of life. that is why creationism and intelligent design are not popular, cuz all the evidence points to there being something or someone else out there that we can not comprehend.

[geoff]

Yeah, that's why there are over 400 different religions and each one of them thinks that every other one is wrong and will burn in hell or not get to fuck 72 virgins or sheep or whatever other nonsense it taught...

there are many questions but only ONE true answer. Christianity is the only religion that is supported by science, history, ect... do the research on the other religions and how much scientific validy they actually have

[d993s]

on the contrary d993s...as we come further to more understanding science is coming closer to proving or atleast supporting the idea of creation. hence the death of the "big bang theory" and why the theory of "evolution" has to be changed so many times or revised, because it CAN NOT and WILL NOT ever be able to explain the origins of life. that is why creationism and intelligent design are not popular, cuz all the evidence points to there being something or someone else out there that we can not comprehend.

[d993s]

there are many questions but only ONE true answer. Christianity is the only religion that is supported by science, history, ect... do the research on the other religions and how much scientific validy they actually have

Now that's what I call 100% bullshit!

Any evidence on this? BESIDES WHAT SOME CHRISTIAN WROTE OR WHAT THE FIBLE TEACHES

[geoff]

prove me wrong. where is your evidence?

[geoff]

once agian i have posted these evidences among other users who have posted these evidences. you choose to be blind my friend. talk about close-minded. to me it seems like you want someone to answer everything for you and for you not to have to do any work to obtain your own conclusion and knowledge. so here it goes.....GOD IS REAL, HEAVEN AND HELL ARE REAL, GOD IS YOUR CREATOR, YOU DO NOT AND CAN NOT SUSTAIN YOURSELF, AND YOU WILL STAND BEFORE YOU MAKER AND BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO YOUR DEEDS WHEN YOU DIE. there, now believe cuz i said so...cuz obviously you have no capability to believe anything yourself

[d993s]

prove me wrong. where is your evidence?

Where is YOURS?

There are countless examples of bible teachings that have ended in genocide, not to mention advocating the invasion and takeover of other's land, etc, etc.
How's that for morals???
But not one shred of evidence extracted from your faith or belief.
Scientific evidence supporting christianity?

[geoff]

you my friend are blind to the evidence in front of you. your just lazy. look for yourself. and come to your own logic conclusion

[zimabog]

also my last point on this. you say that right and wrong are taught and that its affected by the social view. who then decided what was right and wrong in the begining? did the first men and women have a meeting to decide this or is it something deeply embedded in each and every one of us?

so if morality is a god given ability... why do feral children have the morals of the animals they were raised by?

which aztec first decided that it was ok to perform sacrifices?
which person first slaughtered a goat?
which person first stole a wallet?


everyone has a different moral set that your brain decides based on other social standards. so your question is how did the social standards first come about. Every culture has different social standards. In some Cambodian tribes they elongate girl's necks because to them it is more attractive. In ancient China girls with bound feet were hot. In Japan it is a serious offense to disappoint your parents, sometimes resulting in suicide to save face. In some of cultures women are lesser than men, and in some ancient cultures (some tribes in south america before the Europeans wiped the natives out) the women were the top people.

If you say morality is the gift of god, then why is it that so many different people and cultures have their own morality view?

[TheProfiteer]

this whole section of the religion forum is full of scientific not biblical evidence. read the thread about jesus being an alien, pg.14 post number 262 and 263. SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

and to the profiteer...you still avoided ansering any of my questions of how we first "learned" right and wrong and how it was decided or ansered my examples.

what do mean how we first learned right and wrong? Like where did concepts like murder is wrong, and theft is wrong come from? You think people naturally believe that killing another person is wrong?

No, its taught to you. You think during the early days of man, tribes had any problem killing each other? We still dont have any problem to killing each other so long as we are given permission.

It is instinctual to preserve life, at least you own. As society grows, and in a sense becomes its own life form, it instinctively adopts a notion that killing other smaller parts of its own life is wrong as well.

Just like there is no such a thing as natural human rights, those rights are humanly conceived and then implemented as law.

Right and wrong are simply deciding factors, right is defined by actions taken that in turn lead to rewards, wrong is defined as actions taken that in turn lead to consequence.


and believe me animals know right from wrong.

for example a pack of wolves, all the beta males know that if you mess with the alpha male's mate, your gonna get kicked out of the pack, or even worse killed. They respect the authority of the alpha male and do whats right, which is they let him eat first, they let him mate first, and they follow his lead, because those "right" actions lead to rewards. Rewards such as being able to stay as a pack which in turn progresses the survival. Its very common to see beta males getting kicked out of their packs for making the "wrong" decisions.

(with out societal law, the only deciding factor of why a man should not kill another man is that if he does he will be forfeiting his reward of going to heaven)

[TheProfiteer]

this thread has really gone overboard, i never meant for this to happen here, I just wanted to see what other people thought heaven was going to be like. Because every time I try to imagine heaven, all I see is hell.

[ahabion]

this thread has really gone overboard, i never meant for this to happen here, I just wanted to see what other people thought heaven was going to be like. Because every time I try to imagine heaven, all I see is hell.

Things never actually come out as you'd like to see it eh?

Anyway, going back to what Geoff, d993s, and zima was talkin about... social interactions and behavior are learned, much like you can teach a dog to sit or beg.

But I think what Geoff is trying to point out is that there is so much more to us than just simply what we can grasp with out own hands. Not sure who has kids here, but I have a few... I never taught them to rebel against me and yet they do (maybe like Adam and Eve did??) and I certainly didn't teach them to be emotional and angry (I'm a very calm person for the most part but can get passionate in some things). Though we can observe these things personally for ourselves when kids are at a very young age, these are not learned behaviors... if they're not learned, where'd they come from?

[TheProfiteer]

Things never actually come out as you'd like to see it eh?

Anyway, going back to what Geoff, d993s, and zima was talkin about... social interactions and behavior are learned, much like you can teach a dog to sit or beg.

But I think what Geoff is trying to point out is that there is so much more to us than just simply what we can grasp with out own hands. Not sure who has kids here, but I have a few... I never taught them to rebel against me and yet they do (maybe like Adam and Eve did??) and I certainly didn't teach them to be emotional and angry (I'm a very calm person for the most part but can get passionate in some things). Though we can observe these things personally for ourselves when kids are at a very young age, these are not learned behaviors... if they're not learned, where'd they come from?

well I never said that humanity was a shallow low life of earth. Just because you dont teach a child how to rebel doesnt mean he didnt pick up traces of such behavior else where.

Remember your mind is molded by your environment and your genetics. Your child is at a stage where his ego is fully beginning to realize. Where the concept of I Am comes into play and your child is beginning to realize his own individuality. Its a natural process and in order for you to cope with his rebellion you must understand why it is happening.


Similarly to what I was saying in the other thread, is that the question of our posthumous existence has not been answered, and to accept a religion, one so static and tyrannous like Christianity, is to accept a notion that you no longer need to search, that the question has been answered.

[BallerDave04]

Read the book, "A Divine Revelation of Heaven" by Mary K. Baxter. Its free on the internet, just Google it.

[coreypel07]

i dont believe in the bible for the fact that god nor jesus themselves wrote it...it was a bunch of old men that say god or jesus told them too. they wrote there own views and opinions on what they think is right and wrong and that is my honest opinion. i mean some of the stories in the bible are just outragiously fake i mean come on...

[TheProfiteer]

Well you have to understand the role mythology has played on human history. If you look at the theological history of man, divine beliefs usually stem or are derived from the mythologies of a society. Religion is the application of said mythologies in order to manipulate a group of people.

The concept of hell was not even incorporated into the bible until the Romans got a hold of Christianity and used it as a allegorical model for fear.

[ahabion]

well I never said that humanity was a shallow low life of earth. Just because you dont teach a child how to rebel doesnt mean he didnt pick up traces of such behavior else where.

Remember your mind is molded by your environment and your genetics. Your child is at a stage where his ego is fully beginning to realize. Where the concept of I Am comes into play and your child is beginning to realize his own individuality. Its a natural process and in order for you to cope with his rebellion you must understand why it is happening.

Similarly to what I was saying in the other thread, is that the question of our posthumous existence has not been answered, and to accept a religion, one so static and tyrannous like Christianity, is to accept a notion that you no longer need to search, that the question has been answered.

You have children? I'm just curious... because in some ways, what you're saying is actually agreeing with me. Where your genetics come into play, rebellion is in our DNA and the very fabric of who we are.

Although its inhumane and completely unethical, if you were to lock up a child or confine a new born child in a place that provided all the necessities that it needed (food, changing, etc.) that I am absolutely sure that the baby will one day rebel. Even if there were only positive human influences or interactions or none at all. So to say that a baby is a product of its environment is off base as well. Even if the baby was cared for by machines that monitored the baby 100% of the time and knew when the baby would poop before the baby ever did or knew when the baby would be hungry, the baby still has a choice to take the nipple to eat.

Because what you're saying is that these things are learned but what I'm saying is that they are not learned but born within us... already a part of us to the core of our DNA.

What I find interesting about your remarks about Christianity being static is that we as human beings like to consider ourselves as "evolving." Where the longer we are on this earth, the smarter we are or were in comparison to the previous generation or generations before us. Case in point, because we live in the 21st century, we'd like to say that we as a people and as a society are more "evolved" than people in the 10th, 15th, or 20th century. The irony about this is that through all mankind, this same type of thinking occured throughout the entire history of mankind. For example, the Renaissance was seen as the pinnacle point of mankind back in that day in age, both as a society and intellectually. To say that we've evolved from then would actually be a misnomer because as a society, culture, and as a people, we've digressed in comparison. So the thinking or your train of thought is actually what is static... as the train of thought has remained the same throughout the ages.

[TheProfiteer]

You have children? I'm just curious... because in some ways, what you're saying is actually agreeing with me. Where your genetics come into play, rebellion is in our DNA and the very fabric of who we are.

Although its inhumane and completely unethical, if you were to lock up a child or confine a new born child in a place that provided all the necessities that it needed (food, changing, etc.) that I am absolutely sure that the baby will one day rebel. Even if there were only positive human influences or interactions or none at all. So to say that a baby is a product of its environment is off base as well. Even if the baby was cared for by machines that monitored the baby 100% of the time and knew when the baby would poop before the baby ever did or knew when the baby would be hungry, the baby still has a choice to take the nipple to eat.

Because what you're saying is that these things are learned but what I'm saying is that they are not learned but born within us... already a part of us to the core of our DNA.

What I find interesting about your remarks about Christianity being static is that we as human beings like to consider ourselves as "evolving." Where the longer we are on this earth, the smarter we are or were in comparison to the previous generation or generations before us. Case in point, because we live in the 21st century, we'd like to say that we as a people and as a society are more "evolved" than people in the 10th, 15th, or 20th century. The irony about this is that through all mankind, this same type of thinking occured throughout the entire history of mankind. For example, the Renaissance was seen as the pinnacle point of mankind back in that day in age, both as a society and intellectually. To say that we've evolved from then would actually be a misnomer because as a society, culture, and as a people, we've digressed in comparison. So the thinking or your train of thought is actually what is static... as the train of thought has remained the same throughout the ages.

go back and rethink all of that, while you have a valid basis, you do not have a valid point.

[Kevykev]

I stopped reading at post 11 because I know what's bound to follow.

Well Done JM.

[ahabion]

go back and rethink all of that, while you have a valid basis, you do not have a valid point.

LoL its a rather moot point in this forum and I'm tired... Look at the time stamp... it was 1AM when I posted and I'm still tired. 4 hours of sleep doesn't feel good.

[sierra]

Revelation 21 (King James Version)

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[4dmin]

The Islamic take on heaven plus Hell..

We all wait in turn to be judged in front of God(the unknown almighty being which has no partners). Our left and right angels on our shoulders will talk about the list they have compiled of what good we did(our right angel) and the bad we did(our left angel). Our mouths will deny the bad we did, but thats when our body will talk for us and tell God that this person did this bad/good. We will be weighed out and then we will be given our sentence..even if you go to hell, in Islam you do your time and then you will be allowed into heaven.(there is more detail to this that I am skipping)

Heaven - a beautiful place(the same is written in the Bible/Torah about heaven)

This place will have stream of honey and milk flowing. Fruits that are so sweet that you cant imagine a taste as good on earth. Trees so large that it takes the fastest arabian night days to get around it. There will be no negative anything. Everything will be positive. Feelings that you have on earth are not compared to those you will have in Heaven. If you think you love someone now, wait until you get into heaven. You will be able to do whatever you want. You wont have to pray at all because the reason you are in Heaven is because you did your good deeds time on Earth. You will have as many women as you want, and you can be with your family in peace also.

The Quran also explains what happens in hellfire..its starts as soon as the last person walks 30 steps away from your grave.

You have 2 angels that walk into your grave and ask you 3 simple questions - Again the is from the Islamic faith so dont judge it wrong please.

They will ask you who is your God. Who was your prophet? What is the Kalma(makes you a Muslim). If you answer these 3 question correctly, the doors of Heaven are opened up and you can smell the beautiful fragrances of heaven.

If you answer these questions wrong then the grave will tighten up to where you left ribs are overlapping your right ribs, every possible dangerous insect will bite you. The WORST thing about HELL is that your body feels all the pain, but never dies!! There is much more about hell in Islam, but I'm done here.

[trini_gsr]

just caught up on reading. the profiteer is correct, the moral concepts of right/wrong are usually driven by society/cultures. it's LEARNED behavior and not innate. animals (including humans) are born with certain instincts that deal with preservation of self - which is why the wolves in the example above innately know what's expected of them in a pack. and i'd bet even some of that behavior is learned/observed...

humans are born with the same self-preservation instincts. if you have kids then you know that newborns are the most selfish creatures on earth because they are ruled entirely by their id - their wants/desires to fulfill their needs. as they develop a sense of ego and understand the importance of relationships, they LEARN how to function in a group. first the family unit (by learning how to communicate), then the kids at day care/school, then society as a whole. there's a whole branch of pyschology dedicated to studying stuff like this...

what differentiates humans is our level of cognition - animals don't ask questions about their existence...they're perfectly happy with their "programming". humans however constantly question the "how" and the "why"...science answers the "how", but God/spirituality/religion attempts to answer the "why".

[got_psi?]

What is the condition of the dead?

"The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all..." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

[BABY J]

no its not blasphemy. God put a value on men higher thany any other creation apart from the angels.

my support that only humans have souls...in Genisis 1:20-25. " Then God said, let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens. so God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. and God saw that it was good. and God blesse them saying, be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seasm and let birds multiply on the earth. so the evening and the day were the fifth day. then God said, let the earth bring forth the living creature acording to tis kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind, and it was so. and God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. and God saw that it was good."-----creation of animals

Genisis 2:7 " and the Lord God formed man of dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living being."

no where in the bible does it state that God breathed the breath of life into any other creature. God formed man from the dust, He then breathed our life or our soul into us. He merely spoke the animals into existence and so they were.

What is the breath of life?

[148mph]

seeing all my family greeting me to the one place that is truly home.

truly agree