earth is 6000+ years old...?

[Paul]

ok who honestly believes this? i've always wondered how people are going to dispute such findings like the new 47 Million Year old Fossil

[SPOOLIN]

bible swimmers are the ones that believe that crap, it really gets old. I know people who just totally disregard that dinosaurs are 65 million years old...carbon dating tells you that. Some disregard dinosaurs altogether or believe that we lived among them LOL.

[Paul]

bible swimmers are the ones that believe that crap, it really gets old. I know people who just totally disregard that dinosaurs are 65 million years old...carbon dating tells you that. Some disregard dinosaurs altogether or believe that we lived among them LOL.

i mean i can see someone disputing that carbon dating isn't 100% but come on even w/ a margin of error if you say something is 47 million years even w/ an error in dating it is still going to be MILLIONS not THOUSANDS

[99hatch]

The Bible does not say that the world is only 6000 years old. There may be some Bible Thumpers that believe that. But there are also some crazy Bible thumpers that believe that abortion clinics should be blown up. You can't trust people because they are ignorant. But myself as a Christian do believe that the world is millions of years old. Not to mention it does talk about Dinosaurs in the Bible. But the word Dinosaur was not invented until the 1800's. But in Job 40 15-17

15 “Look now at the 3behemoth, which I made along with you;

He eats grass like an ox.

16 See now, his strength is in his hips,

And his power is in his stomach muscles.

17 He moves his tail like a cedar;

The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.





Talks about moving his tail like a Ceder. What kind of animal has a Tail that big i ask? We dont have anything like that now.

[99hatch]

btw Man might be 6000 years old, but not the world. Also I do not believe word for word the world was created in 6 days. It also states in the bible that to God a day is not the same as man. Its not a 24 hour period as he does not live on earth with the world rotating around in 24 hours. To God there is no such thing as time, because he is not living in the same reality we are. He has seen the past, present and future all at the same time.

[BABY J]

The Bible does not say that the world is only 6000 years old. There may be some Bible Thumpers that believe that. But there are also some crazy Bible thumpers that believe that abortion clinics should be blown up. You can't trust people because they are ignorant. But myself as a Christian do believe that the world is millions of years old. Not to mention it does talk about Dinosaurs in the Bible. But the word Dinosaur was not invented until the 1800's. But in Job 40 15-17





15 “Look now at the 3behemoth, which I made along with you;

He eats grass like an ox.

16 See now, his strength is in his hips,

And his power is in his stomach muscles.

17 He moves his tail like a cedar;

The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.

Talks about moving his tail like a Ceder. What kind of animal has a Tail that big i ask? We dont have anything like that now.

Some translations list behemoth's "navel" in verse 16, thus precluding the possibility of it being a dinosaur. (Saurians, like avian and reptilian species, are born from eggs and have no navel - those are mammalian)

Verse above also only says the tail "sways like a cedar" - hard to take that as a definition of anything.

In the Hebrew, the word used for "behemoth" only appears once in the Bible and is otherwise untranslatable. It was the translators who looked at the rest of the details and determined that "lilith" must be something big, thus inserting the English word "behemoth" and giving us the idea that it could possibly be something like a dinosaur.

You want an interesting project? Dig up those verses through the end of the description (you know, being in the river, the eyes and nose, etc) in the major translations (NAS, NIV, KJ, Living) and compare them. You can't even get any kind of consensus among major, scholarly translations on what some of those strange allegories in Job mean. Trying to make any sort of claim that they describe a dinosaur is VERY far reaching. Kthnxbye

[DynamicSound]

bible swimmers are the ones that believe that crap, it really gets old. I know people who just totally disregard that dinosaurs are 65 million years old...carbon dating tells you that. Some disregard dinosaurs altogether or believe that we lived among them LOL.

Religious people will always disregard the facts. This is because once they believe the facts (they already do just don't want to admit) then majority of crap they believe in is BS. This is where the term "faith" comes in. You have to have faith. You basically have to go against all logic and facts and substitute fairy tails. They might as well believe in the tooth fairy because it makes the same amount of sense. It is truly sad. It is too bad that when that time comes to move on, they will never know they were wrong and wasted their life believing.

[99hatch]

It is truly sad. It is too bad that when that time comes to move on, they will never know they were wrong and wasted their life believing.

Let me ask you a question. How exactly would I be wasting my life. Maybe an hour every Sunday, plus a few hours here and there volunteering to help the less fortunate. Which is nice for people to do anyway. Plus a few hours here or there reading up on the bible, or trying to spread the word.

Lets give 2 examples

Me - Spent parts of my days going to church or helping people out. When i Die 2 things will happen. Either I (and other Christians) are right and there is a God. We go to heaven and live a happy eternal life. As it has been promised to us. Or there is no God as you believe. Nothing happens when I die, but at least I spent my life in Good spirits and helping people.

You - Doing whatever you do, same as me but without the church and maybe without the volunteering. (maybe you do, maybe you don't, people don't have to be a Christian to help people) When you die, if your wrong you will spend eternity in Hell, being tortured. Or there is no God and nothing happens when you die. How much more out of life did you get than me.

I still spent my days happy, pleased with myself and with God or without as you see it. Maybe you were happy too. So if there is a God we will have completely different endings. If there is not, we will end up the same. I haven't wasted anything.

I could see how someone could believe that "Religion" was made up by men to keep people in line. I don't agree with it, but i can definitely see the other side. But how could you think there is no God. Look around. How could the ECO system, the animals, the food chain, the oceans and everything in this world and Universe be put together by chance. Its beyond impossible. Even the Albert Eisenstein said that even if he didn't believe in Religion, he believes there is a God.

[DynamicSound]

God is also man made.

Only counting the 1 hour per Sunday, from the age of 18 to say 68, you have wasted over 108 days of your life believeing in something that does not exist and which you have NO proof that does.

BTW...that does not count the time you get dressed for church, the time you drive to church, the time you get undressed from church. So if you count that you have wated 2-3 times that amount.

[Paul]

Me - Spent parts of my days going to church or helping people out. When i Die 2 things will happen. Either I (and other Christians) are right and there is a God. We go to heaven and live a happy eternal life. As it has been promised to us. Or there is no God as you believe. Nothing happens when I die, but at least I spent my life in Good spirits and helping people.

not trying to be a dick...

if you only doing shit to insure you place in imagination land then whatever works for you but don't think for a second that people who don't believe don't live for filling lives nor help society any less. religion has done far more damage to society than good; this needs no explaining and with the amount of revenue religions brings in each year i'm sure it is in the Trillions they could of cured cancer or hiv.

it always cracks me up when people say well "what if your wrong your going to hell"... what the fuck is hell to someone that doesn't believe in it?

[DynamicSound]

not trying to be a dick...

if you only doing shit to insure you place in imagination land then whatever works for you but don't think for a second that people who don't believe don't live for filling lives nor help society any less. religion has done far more damage to society than good; this needs no explaining and with the amount of revenue religions brings in each year i'm sure it is in the Trillions they could of cured cancer or hiv.

it always cracks me up when people say well "what if your wrong your going to hell"... what the fuck is hell to someone that doesn't believe in it?

Amen to that, lol.

Not to mention that the Jews are suppose to be the choosen people. Sounds like if I wanted a sure bet, I would be lining up behind them. Not the christians.

I love when people do or say bad things, then turn around and claim to be a christian. So they can do what they want, but as long as they believe, they will get into heaven. Get real, I am sure majority of religious people would be going to hell just like the rest of us that does not believe.

[BABY J]

Let me ask you a question. How exactly would I be wasting my life. Maybe an hour every Sunday, plus a few hours here and there volunteering to help the less fortunate. Which is nice for people to do anyway. Plus a few hours here or there reading up on the bible, or trying to spread the word.

Lets give 2 examples

Me - Spent parts of my days going to church or helping people out. When i Die 2 things will happen. Either I (and other Christians) are right and there is a God. We go to heaven and live a happy eternal life. As it has been promised to us. Or there is no God as you believe. Nothing happens when I die, but at least I spent my life in Good spirits and helping people.

You - Doing whatever you do, same as me but without the church and maybe without the volunteering. (maybe you do, maybe you don't, people don't have to be a Christian to help people) When you die, if your wrong you will spend eternity in Hell, being tortured. Or there is no God and nothing happens when you die. How much more out of life did you get than me.

I still spent my days happy, pleased with myself and with God or without as you see it. Maybe you were happy too. So if there is a God we will have completely different endings. If there is not, we will end up the same. I haven't wasted anything.

I could see how someone could believe that "Religion" was made up by men to keep people in line. I don't agree with it, but i can definitely see the other side. But how could you think there is no God. Look around. How could the ECO system, the animals, the food chain, the oceans and everything in this world and Universe be put together by chance. Its beyond impossible. Even the Albert Eisenstein said that even if he didn't believe in Religion, he believes there is a God.

Suggesting you have to be a Christian to have a sense of moral absolute, or that morality comes from the Christian God, is patently ridiculous. It absolutely ignores the majority of the world's population that manages to live a more peaceful and harmonious life than our Christian forebears and I maintain that's a superior "morality."

[Nemesis]

Ive always wondered this, as Im not a geoligist, but how is carbon dating accurate or even a form of measure of time?

[BanginJimmy]

carbon dating uses the halflife or carbon. Its not accurate beyond a window that varies by age. It is definitely accurate enough to know that the dinosaurs are quit a bit older than 6k years though.

[thepolecat]

best arguement I have heard came from a rabbi who said that the fossils put on Earth are a test of faith by G-d to see if you really believe

Good make ya think moment- I still believe in evolution though

[EJ25RUN]

best arguement I have heard came from a rabbi who said that the fossils put on Earth are a test of faith by G-d to see if you really believe

I'd laugh in his face. Oh wait, i've done it before.

[BanginJimmy]

I have noticed that religions just ignore anything that doesnt fit their very narrow mindset.

[mocha latte cupcake]

agreed with 99 hatch. 6000 years old i don't believe.. but it is correct that dinosaurs were mentioned in the bible and i would give a closer guess to 10-15k however millions i do not believe.

[WhiteAccord]

In my honest opinion religion is a fad. I do not disrespect anyone on their belief but honestly has anyone ever looked at all the past religions? Some have faded and is no longer worshipped by people(ex. Greek Gods), some religions have out lasted others(ex. christianity).

Does that sound familiar to present day? Clothing, Cars, house styles... Some trends stay and some move on. Christianity was only able to out last most beliefs well obviously because past times christian followers killed people who chose not to believe in such fable.

99hatch: You are right on what the bible says, but have you noticed the bible is re-written EVERY year for an estimated of the past 400 years+. In that 400 years do you think they would have been able to reconfigure on what the bible says to work with present day findings/discoveries?

This also points out my next theory... Christianity is probably one of the biggest scams ever. Ask and I shall explain.

[99hatch]

99hatch: You are right on what the bible says, but have you noticed the bible is re-written EVERY year for an estimated of the past 400 years+. In that 400 years do you think they would have been able to reconfigure on what the bible says to work with present day findings/discoveries?

This also points out my next theory... Christianity is probably one of the biggest scams ever. Ask and I shall explain.

Well Good points. Let me also say that Even though the book has been written over and over again it is the exact same. Do you know that when they found the dead sea scrolls in the late 40's (i believe) that they took them back and compared them to the current Bible. It was the exact same. approximately 2000 years apart and they message was the same. I believe this as divine intervention. I enjoy debating it and dont wish to strike down anyone Else's believes, but 2000 years of going through probably hundreds of peoples hands and rewritings and it was the same.

As for the other statement about Catholics with the other books of the Bible. Its tough to choose one denomination like Catholics and then apply it to Christianity across the board. There are many different beliefs and I denominations also came from Man, not God. he did not intend on there being 389239808023 different denominations. Just one religion Christianity. I do think man has gotten in the way of it over the years, but who is without sin. No one but Jesus.

[BABY J]

Well Good points. Let me also say that Even though the book has been written over and over again it is the exact same. Do you know that when they found the dead sea scrolls in the late 40's (i believe) that they took them back and compared them to the current Bible. It was the exact same. approximately 2000 years apart and they message was the same. I believe this as divine intervention. I enjoy debating it and dont wish to strike down anyone Else's believes, but 2000 years of going through probably hundreds of peoples hands and rewritings and it was the same.

As for the other statement about Catholics with the other books of the Bible. Its tough to choose one denomination like Catholics and then apply it to Christianity across the board. There are many different beliefs and I denominations also came from Man, not God. he did not intend on there being 389239808023 different denominations. Just one religion Christianity. I do think man has gotten in the way of it over the years, but who is without sin. No one but Jesus.

So 2k years of separation and the text has been unchanged --- that's sad, b/c that means that theer has been a LOT of inconsistencies from the very start. LOL

No wonder there are so many denominations. If THE WORD is THE WORD how can this be so? Hmmm...

[99hatch]

So 2k years of separation and the text has been unchanged --- that's sad, b/c that means that theer has been a LOT of inconsistencies from the very start. LOL

No wonder there are so many denominations. If THE WORD is THE WORD how can this be so? Hmmm...

Where are these "inconsistencies"? I dont see any. Like i said if you read it, that denominations are man created. The word is the word, but people may perceive it differently like anything else. How can there be people that believe so many different things in the world. Inconsistencies are in men, and yet the Bible is the word of God, thats why it is unchanged.

[SPOOLIN]

Where are these "inconsistencies"? I dont see any. Like i said if you read it, that denominations are man created. The word is the word, but people may perceive it differently like anything else. How can there be people that believe so many different things in the world. Inconsistencies are in men, and yet the Bible is the word of God, thats why it is unchanged.

You are telling me you are a scholar that has read all of the versions cover to cover?? There are people who devote their lives to religious scholar that have found the inconsistencies in all of the books of religion because they study and dissect them. The bible has changed from its first version i have no doubt in that. This is the problem with DEEP catholics and christians, they are very NAIVE about things outside of what their bible, pastor and priest tell them.

Is there never a day when you run out of stuff to talk about in church? lol, i've often wondered this.

[BABY J]

Where are these "inconsistencies"? I dont see any. Like i said if you read it, that denominations are man created. The word is the word, but people may perceive it differently like anything else. How can there be people that believe so many different things in the world. Inconsistencies are in men, and yet the Bible is the word of God, thats why it is unchanged.

I've said this before and will say it again...

And how do you feel about ex-Creationists and ministers who have realized that it's all a bunch of silly myths after clinging desperately to scripture for years? And trust me, I've been all through the "Evidence That Demands a Verdict Series" and other Josh McDowell writings, as well as wandering though a lot of Hal Lindsey's works. Plus scores of others.

They all fall apart when scrutinized at a truly intellectual level. They use a document to prove itself. You cannot do this - it is an inherently flawed method of proof. By applying the same type of logic anything becomes true because it proves itself.

If you want to believe something, that's fine, that's faith. But don't try to turn it into a scientific or historical study because it will fall apart quickly under the jaundiced gaze of rigirous academic scrutiny.

[BanginJimmy]

The Vatican has MANY books of the bible that have never been published, along with most versions of the original bibles. No one but the select few who have access to the vatican archives knows for sure what the original writings of the bibles authors actually said.

[WhiteAccord]

The Vatican has MANY books of the bible that have never been published, along with most versions of the original bibles. No one but the select few who have access to the vatican archives knows for sure what the original writings of the bibles authors actually said.

With this being said, why should such religion be kept held a secret? Why must the original as you stated, being only accessible to only a select few? For those who believe in such religion, ones who would do anything to understand the true meaning of being a "faithful" one be kept away from regular people(People who give money to churches and go to church every Sunday to worship someone/something that they have never even heard of or have ACTUAL evidence). Chances are Christianity has many secrets in which could literally destroy the "Christian Faith" could be more of a reason proving that religion in all among aspects be a FALSE claim.

Making only my theory of Christianity of being one of the biggest scams more plausible.

[BanginJimmy]

With this being said, why should such religion be kept held a secret? Why must the original as you stated, being only accessible to only a select few? For those who believe in such religion, ones who would do anything to understand the true meaning of being a "faithful" one be kept away from regular people(People who give money to churches and go to church every Sunday to worship someone/something that they have never even heard of or have ACTUAL evidence). Chances are Christianity has many secrets in which could literally destroy the "Christian Faith" could be more of a reason proving that religion in all among aspects be a FALSE claim.

Making only my theory of Christianity of being one of the biggest scams.

I believe this is all true. The only reasons for not letting these versions of the bible and these other books open to the public is to protect their power. The church isnt that far off of where it was 300 years ago. Their strength isnt as public as it used to be, but it is still there. Any info that can hurt that power is going to be fiercely fought by the vatican.

[99hatch]

With this being said, why should such religion be kept held a secret? Why must the original as you stated, being only accessible to only a select few? For those who believe in such religion, ones who would do anything to understand the true meaning of being a "faithful" one be kept away from regular people(People who give money to churches and go to church every Sunday to worship someone/something that they have never even heard of or have ACTUAL evidence). Chances are Christianity has many secrets in which could literally destroy the "Christian Faith" could be more of a reason proving that religion in all among aspects be a FALSE claim.

Making only my theory of Christianity of being one of the biggest scams more plausible.

Just because you dont have any Actual Evidence in God doesnt mean I dont. God is spiritual and you have to look at him through spiritual eyes. I see evidence in God everywhere. I have witnessed Miracles in my life, maybe some people could just write it off to a coincidence, but I know it was God intervening. Also to these "hidden" books. There are no Hidden books in Christianity. It is the Bible, and that is it. The oldest book of all time. Mormons claim that they have the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible, but they are not recognized as Christians. So grouping religion as a whole is simply not true.

Also where is the ACTUAL evidence of Evolution. There is none. We can debate about this till we are blue in the face, but either way it takes Faith to believe in either.

Faith:
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

I know there is a God, from my personal experiences with him. Also purely looking around at the world. If anything it takes more FAITH to believe in Evolution. So you are telling me that By Chance the Earth was created, and developed into the world we live in today. By chance that plants use Carbon dioxide and put off oxogen, and we are the oposite. That there is a food chain and everything has something it eats on this earth. And this all started from some single cell organisms originally. All because of an explosion. That we are exactly the right distance from the sun to not burn up or freeze, so life can survive here on this planet. I could go on with thousands of examples, but either way you put it, it takes faith to find out how the world was created.

[Paul]

i love people that are so sure the bible is troof ... i wonder how many of you can speak/read hebrew/latin b/c the first gospels, doctrines, etc were; so the bible you read today isn't even original. religion is a control tool and has always been used that way even before monothesiem(christianity) was sought after as a control tool by the roman empire.

amazing we have roman documents even before christ yet none dicpictating the events as the bible states.

we are specs of dust on a larger spec of dust in a universe larger than we can even comprehend so beliving in shit like santa claus is just dumb.

[SPOOLIN]

this place we live on is millions of years old, hell i guess the universe is only like 20,000 years old yet we still see things happening in the past accross the universe millions and millions of light years ago (a light year is how far light travels in a year btw) (its a lot of miles)

[WhiteAccord]

/\/\ Troof. To me though my only question I have to ask is... How long will this fad/trend last...???

[BABY J]

http://www.dailymotion.com/user/toto...indedness_tech

GAME OVER

[Total_Blender]

Some people believe that Jesus rode dinosaurs:



Others believe that Jesus was a dinosaur.

[SPOOLIN]

Some people believe that Jesus rode dinosaurs:



Others believe that Jesus was a dinosaur.

OMG THAT SHIT MADE ME ROLL!!!

or should i say, OMJ!!!

[99hatch]

Some people believe that Jesus rode dinosaurs:



Others believe that Jesus was a dinosaur.

I know your just trying to be funny. But who are these people that believe that? I am not one, when has someone on IA who claims to be a Christian say they believe that Jesus rode a Dinosaur. There are people that believe in cursing troops too like that Crazy Westboro Baptist Church that has no offiliation with the Baptist Church. There are also people that believe in Scientology, or whatever else in the world they want to believe.


People do make a lot of mistakes, and are like sheep in general. We can all Agree on that. But do not force crazy people's ideals on me (or other True Christians) just because they claim to be Christians. Just as Muslims do not believe in killing whitey or USA. But a few bad apples can spoil the bunch.

[SPOOLIN]

delete

"server is to busy" double post

[BABY J]

Highlights from Penn and Teller:


- 4/5ths of American homes own a Bible.

- The bible is supposidly the best selling book of all time, but it never seems to crack Amazons top 100.

- Bible nuts pride themselves on believing things that are hard to believe in. God awards them for that.

- Genesis chap 1&2: There are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORIES on Adam and Eve. In the first chapter, God creates Adam and Eve AT THE SAME TIME. In the second chapter, he creates Adam, starts creating animals and plants on the Earth, THEN creates Eve out of Adams rib. Which one happened?

- Genesis 6:11-13, Noas Ark. I don't really have to go into this, it's impossible. 10 billion species on a boat, give me a break. It wasn't meant to be taken literally, in fact, to take the story literally is MISSING THE COMPLETE POINT OF THE STORY. It's about renewal, and an account of an ACTUAL FLOOD that science has prove happened on the Euphrates river, around 2900 BC. It sure as hell didn't flood the world.

- Moses and the Red Sea: Thousands of Jews enslaved by the Egyptian Pharaoh? Never happened, in countless artifacts we have from ancients Egypt, not one account.

- There's no evidence that Moses even existed.

- There's no evidence that Jesus Existed. (i actually disagree w/ this one)

- The shroud of tourin has been proven to be a fake! But yet the Catholic church still recognizes it as a possibility. It's been dated over 1000 years after Jesus.

- An ancient historian named Josephis, wrote about Jesus and their followers. Later a first centry Roman historian also wrote about him. Multiple sources about a guy named Jesus, only written hundreds and a thousand years later.

- Jesus was not the only Messiah at the time. There were lots of them. Apollonius of Tayana was one of these written about in the first centry, NOW SWALLOW THIS:

-- Apollonius healed the sick.
-- Apollonius raised the dead.
-- Apollonius could walk through walls.
-- Apollonius was persecuted for his Religious beleifs.
-- Apollonius was brought to trial. By the local Roman courts.
-- Apollonius was crucified.
-- Apollonius ascended to heaven afterwards.
-- Apollonius came back from the dead where his followers saw him.


This is not the Jesus story, but is it? There are many stories like this! Jesus just happened to make the Bible!


- There are books that were a part of the original Bible that "didn't make the final cut".

- Conservative Christians pick and choose passeges from the Bible based on current moral conviction. A man shall not lay with another man, FINE, but what about all the others? For example:

-- You should stone to death disobedient children.

-- Exodus 21:7: It's ok to sell your daughter into slavery.

-- Exodus 35:2: Anyone working on the Sabbath, should be put to death.

-- Corithians 11:14: Men with long hair should be shameful. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE PRETTY PICTURES OF JESUS YOU WORSHIP?????!!!

-- Corithians 11:19-24: A man shall not go near a woman while she is on her period. Common sense says yes, but try to enforce THAT.

There are so many more, but if you believe God to be infallible, then you can't throw out some of the rules, then keep the ones that are most conveiniant.


THE BIBLE WAS A HUMAN EDITED, SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED BOOK, OVER MANY, MANY CENTURIES. It promotes prejudice, cruelty, superstition - even murder.

Now -- in your defense, I don't base my entire life philosophy on an episode of Penn & Teller. But the Penn and Teller episode was just an example, and simple to swallow for simple people. Excuse me if I don't base my entire philosophy on a book created by fools that lived 2000 years ago. I'll take actual fact and HEAVILY researched data. Not from a source that thinks ghosts are real and the world is flat. Just doesn't cut reality to me.

There are plenty of other problems. For instance, in the Gospel of John, Jesus is eventually crucified for raising Lazarus from the dead, arguably his greatest miracle. Yet its an event mentioned NOWHERE ELSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT! Why? Simple. John made it up. We know now that the last chunk of the Gospel of Mark (handling serpents, drinking poison, all that jazz) didn't exist in the original manuscripts, yet its included in the scripture still. Remember, this is the perfect, inspired "Word of God" here. You do not get the right of picking and choosing which parts are credible and which aren't.

Some of the other "moral dilemmas" referenced being from P&T aren't really, from a Christian perspective. They're Old Testament vs New Testament. However, most of the "hero stories" of Genesis are based on Babylonian mythos. On the flip side, there's very little doubt from a historical perspective that Jesus was real. Did he really do all those great things or was he just a visionary philosopher that ended up exaggerated to make headlines? Most likely the latter.

[99hatch]

- There's no evidence that Moses even existed.

- There's no evidence that Jesus Existed. (i actually disagree w/ this one)

- The shroud of tourin has been proven to be a fake! But yet the Catholic church still recognizes it as a possibility. It's been dated over 1000 years after Jesus.


- Jesus was not the only Messiah at the time. There were lots of them. Apollonius of Tayana was one of these written about in the first centry, NOW SWALLOW THIS:

-- Apollonius healed the sick.
-- Apollonius raised the dead.
-- Apollonius could walk through walls.
-- Apollonius was persecuted for his Religious beleifs.
-- Apollonius was brought to trial. By the local Roman courts.
-- Apollonius was crucified.
-- Apollonius ascended to heaven afterwards.
-- Apollonius came back from the dead where his followers saw him.


This is not the Jesus story, but is it? There are many stories like this! Jesus just happened to make the Bible!

I will have a rebuttal for the rest, but dang thats a lot of Info you through at me. Will take a while! haha. By the way, i too have seen the Penn and Teller show, have all of the first 6 seasons on my computer, as well as the Bible one. Its a great show for entertainment, but this still is a rebuttal of some of the information as far as Moses and Jesus. The whole Apollonious arguement is completely wrong. He was disproved and never had any documentation that he could preform miracles until hundreds of years later when it was made up.

First response to Penn and Teller's The Bible is Bull****

I was recently asked to respond to one of Penn and Teller's episodes labeled "The Bible is Bull****", two claims in particular - that of the supposed lack of archaeological evidence for the Bible and a comparison between Christ and another supposed "messiah" of that time, Apollonius. When I get more time, I'll respond to the other claims in the episode, but for now, let’s first look at the archaeological claims made in the video clip and then look at the question of Apollonius.

Penn and Teller’s “expert” claims that, “The more we learn about archaeology and history of biblical times, we realize that most of the stuff in the Bible is fiction. It is an article of faith. It is part of a religious system that really doesn’t fit the way we think when we think scientifically and live in the age of science where we're supposed to have evidence and challenge beliefs." This claim is simply false. There are 25,000 archaeological digs that confirm events, places, and people of the Bible and not one that refutes it. Let’s look at just some of these from both the Old and New Testaments.

Old Testament scholar Gleason Archer documents a number of archaeological findings that give credence to the historicity of Israel. For example, the discovery of the Ebla tablets (2350-1600 B.C.) in Syria provides very early documentation of names, places, and ideas presented in the Torah (such as naming the father of Abraham). Further, an Egyptian reference to the Hebrew nation as “Israel” was discovered on the Stela of King Merneptah in 1896, and dates back to 1229 B.C. The City of Ur in Southern Sumeria was excavated in 1922 and found to be a large and flourishing city at around 2000 B.C. – precisely the time in which Abraham lived. Finally, Egyptian texts dating back to about 1820 B.C. speak of Palestine communities being bound under Egyptian rule.

In addition, an Egyptian stele was found in the temple at Thebes, which gives the earliest known mention of Israel. It is a 7.5 foot high funerary monument of Pharaoh Merneptah, who ruled from 1213 to 1203 B.C. These monuments outlined a Pharaoh's lifetime accomplishments were written for his tombstone prior to his death. He refers to conquering Israel (among others) and says, "Israel is laid waste, his seed (people) is not." Israel is referred to as "a people," that is, they were already known and acknowledged as a distinct ethnic group.

Diodorus Siculus, a Greek Historian from Sicily living from 80 BC to approximately 15 BC (20 years before Christ's birth) wrote, "In ancient times there happened a great plague in Egypt, and many ascribed the cause of it to God, who was offended with them because there were many strangers in the land, by whom foreign rites and ceremonies were employed in their worship of the deity. The Egyptians concluded; therefore, that unless all strangers were driven out of the country, they should never be freed from their miseries."

Josephus (a Jewish Historian; born A.D. 37) in Josephus Against Apion. I, 26, 27, 32 mentions two Egyptian priest-scholars: Manetho and Cheremon who in their histories of Egypt specifically named Joseph and Moses as leaders of the Jewish race. Josephus states that Manetho and Cheremon stated that the Jews rejected Egypt’s customs and gods.

Further, Penn and Teller’s “expert” relies on the worst argument one can have – an argument from silence. But as demonstrated above, such is not the case. Also, keep in mind that the Israelites were nomadic during their wilderness wanderings so it’s not expected that much would be recovered or found regarding their journey.

Turning to the New Testament, here are some of the finds that scholars are in possession of:

• Jesus’ half-brother James (martyred in A.D. 62) coffin was found in 1955; the inscription reads “James son of Joseph, brother of Jesus”
• The city of Nazareth was uncovered in 1955
• An inscription to Caiaphas was found in 1990 and dated to be A.D. 10-36
• The name of Pilate (as prefect of Judea) was found in 1961 and dated to be A.D. 26-37
• Regarding Luke’s mention of rulers in his Gospel and Acts: various ruler names discovered in Delphi, Corinth and other sites that validate dating and individuals mentioned
  
  With respect to the book of Acts: Historian C. J. Hemer has recorded hundreds of details in Acts that map to excavation findings
• A crucifixion victim found in 1968 that matches perfectly with account given in Gospels (legs broken, etc.)
• The name of Erastus (Corinth city treasurer, Rom 16:23) found in 1929 in Corinth pavement with label “Erastus, curator of public buildings”
• The tomb of Lazarus – the man Jesus raised from the dead – was found in the 900’s in the city of Larnaca on Cyprus. The inscription on the sarcophagus reads, “Lazarus, bishop of Larnaca. Four days dead. Friend of Jesus”.

In his book Why I Believe, Dr. James Kennedy relays the story of Sir William Ramsey who devoted his whole life to disproving the Bible. He was a respected, wealthy atheist with a Ph.D. from Oxford. In attempting to disprove the Bible, he unearthed hundreds of findings that confirmed its accuracy. After 25 years of digging, he shocked the whole critical world by declaring himself to be a Christian.

So we revisit the statement of Penn and Teller’s “expert” who said, “The more we learn about archaeology and history of biblical times, we realize that most of the stuff in the Bible is fiction…” and find his statement to be fiction instead.

Regarding the video’s “expert” claim of Apollonius mirroring Jesus to the letter, this is just one of many false comparisons and exaggerations of individuals who the New Testament writers supposedly copied in their portrayal of Jesus. Besides Apollonius, there are claims about Jesus being nothing more than a reinvention of Horus, Mithras, Krishna, Dionysus, and others.

The only written account of the life of Apollonius of Tyana (d. A.D. 98) is chronicled by a writer named Philostratus in his work, Life of Apollonius. The biography, however, ends with Apollonius’ death (so no resurrection like Jesus) and there is nothing supernatural whatsoever – no miracles or other parallels to the work that Christ performed. The only supposed “appearing” of Apollonius was to a man while he slept – a vision 200 years after Apollonius is to have lived. It was only later after his death that legends began to creep in about Apollonius, and all post-date the writing of the New Testament so if there is copycat work afoot, it is not Christianity doing the copying.

Further, unlike the New Testament events and claims that are historically verifiable, Philostratus’ work contains numerous geographical and historical inaccuracies (e.g. Nineveh and Babylon were destroyed 300 years earlier, etc.)

Lastly, all of the exact parallels claimed by the “expert” in the video clip are not be found in the written account of Apollonius. This unfortunate act of either intentional or unintentional spreading of misinformation is repeated again and again when it comes to comparing Jesus to other supposed “messiahs”. Not surprisingly, there is not a scholar with an opposing viewpoint on Penn and Teller’s video so no one can hear an informed rebuttal.

In the beginning of their video, Penn says, “"If you believe that the Bible is real because of faith, we can't touch you … they pride themselves on believing things that are hard to believe in. They think God will bless them for that. But if you want history or fact in your Bible, you are so *******"

Nothing could be further from the truth. Believing in God or the historicity of the Bible is not hard at all; in fact it takes far more faith to be an atheist when the philosophical and historical evidence is examined.

Unfortunately, Penn and Teller, along with those like them, have no interest in actually examining the facts. So if they believe the Bible isn’t real because of faith, we can’t touch them. They pride themselves on believing things that are hard to believe in. But if they want reason or facts or historical evidence to back up their claims that the Bible isn’t accurate, they are so … ah … “in trouble”.

[99hatch]

Highlights from Penn and Teller:

-- Corithians 11:14: Men with long hair should be shameful. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE PRETTY PICTURES OF JESUS YOU WORSHIP?????!!!

-- Corithians 11:19-24: A man shall not go near a woman while she is on her period. Common sense says yes, but try to enforce THAT.

Also it doesnt state in the Bible that Jesus had long Hair, Nor were there pictures of him. Many pictures also depict Jesus as white. Although we know he was a Jew in the Middle east. So bashing pictures has nothing to do with the Bible. Pictures is just someone's ideal of what he may have looked like. But clearly Jesus was not white. He may have had long hair, as Im sure they didnt have Barber shops back then. But we will not know for sure.

Secondly there is no just "corithians" There is 1st and 2nd Corithians.

1 Corithians: 19-24 states:
19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.





2 Corithians 11:19-24 states:

19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

21I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

22Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.





Neither of those talks about dont go near a woman on her period.

[99hatch]

Highlights from Penn and Teller:
- Genesis chap 1&2: There are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORIES on Adam and Eve. In the first chapter, God creates Adam and Eve AT THE SAME TIME. In the second chapter, he creates Adam, starts creating animals and plants on the Earth, THEN creates Eve out of Adams rib. Which one happened?

Its not that they are completely different. Genesis 1 is more of a Outline of what happened where Genesis 2 is more detail, as it stats in Gensis 2:4: 4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

Then goes further into explaining that Even was made from one of Adams Ribs. So its not that they are any different. Also in Genesis 1 it states

7 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

So it obviously states that he made man in his own image, then talks about creating a female. So i dont see how the stories are completely different. Just shortened.