earth is 6000+ years old...?

[BABY J]

Highlights from Penn and Teller:


- 4/5ths of American homes own a Bible.

- The bible is supposidly the best selling book of all time, but it never seems to crack Amazons top 100.

- Bible nuts pride themselves on believing things that are hard to believe in. God awards them for that.

- Genesis chap 1&2: There are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORIES on Adam and Eve. In the first chapter, God creates Adam and Eve AT THE SAME TIME. In the second chapter, he creates Adam, starts creating animals and plants on the Earth, THEN creates Eve out of Adams rib. Which one happened?

- Genesis 6:11-13, Noas Ark. I don't really have to go into this, it's impossible. 10 billion species on a boat, give me a break. It wasn't meant to be taken literally, in fact, to take the story literally is MISSING THE COMPLETE POINT OF THE STORY. It's about renewal, and an account of an ACTUAL FLOOD that science has prove happened on the Euphrates river, around 2900 BC. It sure as hell didn't flood the world.

- Moses and the Red Sea: Thousands of Jews enslaved by the Egyptian Pharaoh? Never happened, in countless artifacts we have from ancients Egypt, not one account.

- There's no evidence that Moses even existed.

- There's no evidence that Jesus Existed. (i actually disagree w/ this one)

- The shroud of tourin has been proven to be a fake! But yet the Catholic church still recognizes it as a possibility. It's been dated over 1000 years after Jesus.

- An ancient historian named Josephis, wrote about Jesus and their followers. Later a first centry Roman historian also wrote about him. Multiple sources about a guy named Jesus, only written hundreds and a thousand years later.

- Jesus was not the only Messiah at the time. There were lots of them. Apollonius of Tayana was one of these written about in the first centry, NOW SWALLOW THIS:

-- Apollonius healed the sick.
-- Apollonius raised the dead.
-- Apollonius could walk through walls.
-- Apollonius was persecuted for his Religious beleifs.
-- Apollonius was brought to trial. By the local Roman courts.
-- Apollonius was crucified.
-- Apollonius ascended to heaven afterwards.
-- Apollonius came back from the dead where his followers saw him.


This is not the Jesus story, but is it? There are many stories like this! Jesus just happened to make the Bible!


- There are books that were a part of the original Bible that "didn't make the final cut".

- Conservative Christians pick and choose passeges from the Bible based on current moral conviction. A man shall not lay with another man, FINE, but what about all the others? For example:

-- You should stone to death disobedient children.

-- Exodus 21:7: It's ok to sell your daughter into slavery.

-- Exodus 35:2: Anyone working on the Sabbath, should be put to death.

-- Corithians 11:14: Men with long hair should be shameful. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE PRETTY PICTURES OF JESUS YOU WORSHIP?????!!!

-- Corithians 11:19-24: A man shall not go near a woman while she is on her period. Common sense says yes, but try to enforce THAT.

There are so many more, but if you believe God to be infallible, then you can't throw out some of the rules, then keep the ones that are most conveiniant.


THE BIBLE WAS A HUMAN EDITED, SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED BOOK, OVER MANY, MANY CENTURIES. It promotes prejudice, cruelty, superstition - even murder.

Now -- in your defense, I don't base my entire life philosophy on an episode of Penn & Teller. But the Penn and Teller episode was just an example, and simple to swallow for simple people. Excuse me if I don't base my entire philosophy on a book created by fools that lived 2000 years ago. I'll take actual fact and HEAVILY researched data. Not from a source that thinks ghosts are real and the world is flat. Just doesn't cut reality to me.

There are plenty of other problems. For instance, in the Gospel of John, Jesus is eventually crucified for raising Lazarus from the dead, arguably his greatest miracle. Yet its an event mentioned NOWHERE ELSE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT! Why? Simple. John made it up. We know now that the last chunk of the Gospel of Mark (handling serpents, drinking poison, all that jazz) didn't exist in the original manuscripts, yet its included in the scripture still. Remember, this is the perfect, inspired "Word of God" here. You do not get the right of picking and choosing which parts are credible and which aren't.

Some of the other "moral dilemmas" referenced being from P&T aren't really, from a Christian perspective. They're Old Testament vs New Testament. However, most of the "hero stories" of Genesis are based on Babylonian mythos. On the flip side, there's very little doubt from a historical perspective that Jesus was real. Did he really do all those great things or was he just a visionary philosopher that ended up exaggerated to make headlines? Most likely the latter.

[99hatch]

- There's no evidence that Moses even existed.

- There's no evidence that Jesus Existed. (i actually disagree w/ this one)

- The shroud of tourin has been proven to be a fake! But yet the Catholic church still recognizes it as a possibility. It's been dated over 1000 years after Jesus.


- Jesus was not the only Messiah at the time. There were lots of them. Apollonius of Tayana was one of these written about in the first centry, NOW SWALLOW THIS:

-- Apollonius healed the sick.
-- Apollonius raised the dead.
-- Apollonius could walk through walls.
-- Apollonius was persecuted for his Religious beleifs.
-- Apollonius was brought to trial. By the local Roman courts.
-- Apollonius was crucified.
-- Apollonius ascended to heaven afterwards.
-- Apollonius came back from the dead where his followers saw him.


This is not the Jesus story, but is it? There are many stories like this! Jesus just happened to make the Bible!

I will have a rebuttal for the rest, but dang thats a lot of Info you through at me. Will take a while! haha. By the way, i too have seen the Penn and Teller show, have all of the first 6 seasons on my computer, as well as the Bible one. Its a great show for entertainment, but this still is a rebuttal of some of the information as far as Moses and Jesus. The whole Apollonious arguement is completely wrong. He was disproved and never had any documentation that he could preform miracles until hundreds of years later when it was made up.

First response to Penn and Teller's The Bible is Bull****

I was recently asked to respond to one of Penn and Teller's episodes labeled "The Bible is Bull****", two claims in particular - that of the supposed lack of archaeological evidence for the Bible and a comparison between Christ and another supposed "messiah" of that time, Apollonius. When I get more time, I'll respond to the other claims in the episode, but for now, let’s first look at the archaeological claims made in the video clip and then look at the question of Apollonius.

Penn and Teller’s “expert” claims that, “The more we learn about archaeology and history of biblical times, we realize that most of the stuff in the Bible is fiction. It is an article of faith. It is part of a religious system that really doesn’t fit the way we think when we think scientifically and live in the age of science where we're supposed to have evidence and challenge beliefs." This claim is simply false. There are 25,000 archaeological digs that confirm events, places, and people of the Bible and not one that refutes it. Let’s look at just some of these from both the Old and New Testaments.

Old Testament scholar Gleason Archer documents a number of archaeological findings that give credence to the historicity of Israel. For example, the discovery of the Ebla tablets (2350-1600 B.C.) in Syria provides very early documentation of names, places, and ideas presented in the Torah (such as naming the father of Abraham). Further, an Egyptian reference to the Hebrew nation as “Israel” was discovered on the Stela of King Merneptah in 1896, and dates back to 1229 B.C. The City of Ur in Southern Sumeria was excavated in 1922 and found to be a large and flourishing city at around 2000 B.C. – precisely the time in which Abraham lived. Finally, Egyptian texts dating back to about 1820 B.C. speak of Palestine communities being bound under Egyptian rule.

In addition, an Egyptian stele was found in the temple at Thebes, which gives the earliest known mention of Israel. It is a 7.5 foot high funerary monument of Pharaoh Merneptah, who ruled from 1213 to 1203 B.C. These monuments outlined a Pharaoh's lifetime accomplishments were written for his tombstone prior to his death. He refers to conquering Israel (among others) and says, "Israel is laid waste, his seed (people) is not." Israel is referred to as "a people," that is, they were already known and acknowledged as a distinct ethnic group.

Diodorus Siculus, a Greek Historian from Sicily living from 80 BC to approximately 15 BC (20 years before Christ's birth) wrote, "In ancient times there happened a great plague in Egypt, and many ascribed the cause of it to God, who was offended with them because there were many strangers in the land, by whom foreign rites and ceremonies were employed in their worship of the deity. The Egyptians concluded; therefore, that unless all strangers were driven out of the country, they should never be freed from their miseries."

Josephus (a Jewish Historian; born A.D. 37) in Josephus Against Apion. I, 26, 27, 32 mentions two Egyptian priest-scholars: Manetho and Cheremon who in their histories of Egypt specifically named Joseph and Moses as leaders of the Jewish race. Josephus states that Manetho and Cheremon stated that the Jews rejected Egypt’s customs and gods.

Further, Penn and Teller’s “expert” relies on the worst argument one can have – an argument from silence. But as demonstrated above, such is not the case. Also, keep in mind that the Israelites were nomadic during their wilderness wanderings so it’s not expected that much would be recovered or found regarding their journey.

Turning to the New Testament, here are some of the finds that scholars are in possession of:

• Jesus’ half-brother James (martyred in A.D. 62) coffin was found in 1955; the inscription reads “James son of Joseph, brother of Jesus”
• The city of Nazareth was uncovered in 1955
• An inscription to Caiaphas was found in 1990 and dated to be A.D. 10-36
• The name of Pilate (as prefect of Judea) was found in 1961 and dated to be A.D. 26-37
• Regarding Luke’s mention of rulers in his Gospel and Acts: various ruler names discovered in Delphi, Corinth and other sites that validate dating and individuals mentioned
  
  With respect to the book of Acts: Historian C. J. Hemer has recorded hundreds of details in Acts that map to excavation findings
• A crucifixion victim found in 1968 that matches perfectly with account given in Gospels (legs broken, etc.)
• The name of Erastus (Corinth city treasurer, Rom 16:23) found in 1929 in Corinth pavement with label “Erastus, curator of public buildings”
• The tomb of Lazarus – the man Jesus raised from the dead – was found in the 900’s in the city of Larnaca on Cyprus. The inscription on the sarcophagus reads, “Lazarus, bishop of Larnaca. Four days dead. Friend of Jesus”.

In his book Why I Believe, Dr. James Kennedy relays the story of Sir William Ramsey who devoted his whole life to disproving the Bible. He was a respected, wealthy atheist with a Ph.D. from Oxford. In attempting to disprove the Bible, he unearthed hundreds of findings that confirmed its accuracy. After 25 years of digging, he shocked the whole critical world by declaring himself to be a Christian.

So we revisit the statement of Penn and Teller’s “expert” who said, “The more we learn about archaeology and history of biblical times, we realize that most of the stuff in the Bible is fiction…” and find his statement to be fiction instead.

Regarding the video’s “expert” claim of Apollonius mirroring Jesus to the letter, this is just one of many false comparisons and exaggerations of individuals who the New Testament writers supposedly copied in their portrayal of Jesus. Besides Apollonius, there are claims about Jesus being nothing more than a reinvention of Horus, Mithras, Krishna, Dionysus, and others.

The only written account of the life of Apollonius of Tyana (d. A.D. 98) is chronicled by a writer named Philostratus in his work, Life of Apollonius. The biography, however, ends with Apollonius’ death (so no resurrection like Jesus) and there is nothing supernatural whatsoever – no miracles or other parallels to the work that Christ performed. The only supposed “appearing” of Apollonius was to a man while he slept – a vision 200 years after Apollonius is to have lived. It was only later after his death that legends began to creep in about Apollonius, and all post-date the writing of the New Testament so if there is copycat work afoot, it is not Christianity doing the copying.

Further, unlike the New Testament events and claims that are historically verifiable, Philostratus’ work contains numerous geographical and historical inaccuracies (e.g. Nineveh and Babylon were destroyed 300 years earlier, etc.)

Lastly, all of the exact parallels claimed by the “expert” in the video clip are not be found in the written account of Apollonius. This unfortunate act of either intentional or unintentional spreading of misinformation is repeated again and again when it comes to comparing Jesus to other supposed “messiahs”. Not surprisingly, there is not a scholar with an opposing viewpoint on Penn and Teller’s video so no one can hear an informed rebuttal.

In the beginning of their video, Penn says, “"If you believe that the Bible is real because of faith, we can't touch you … they pride themselves on believing things that are hard to believe in. They think God will bless them for that. But if you want history or fact in your Bible, you are so *******"

Nothing could be further from the truth. Believing in God or the historicity of the Bible is not hard at all; in fact it takes far more faith to be an atheist when the philosophical and historical evidence is examined.

Unfortunately, Penn and Teller, along with those like them, have no interest in actually examining the facts. So if they believe the Bible isn’t real because of faith, we can’t touch them. They pride themselves on believing things that are hard to believe in. But if they want reason or facts or historical evidence to back up their claims that the Bible isn’t accurate, they are so … ah … “in trouble”.

[99hatch]

Highlights from Penn and Teller:

-- Corithians 11:14: Men with long hair should be shameful. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE PRETTY PICTURES OF JESUS YOU WORSHIP?????!!!

-- Corithians 11:19-24: A man shall not go near a woman while she is on her period. Common sense says yes, but try to enforce THAT.

Also it doesnt state in the Bible that Jesus had long Hair, Nor were there pictures of him. Many pictures also depict Jesus as white. Although we know he was a Jew in the Middle east. So bashing pictures has nothing to do with the Bible. Pictures is just someone's ideal of what he may have looked like. But clearly Jesus was not white. He may have had long hair, as Im sure they didnt have Barber shops back then. But we will not know for sure.

Secondly there is no just "corithians" There is 1st and 2nd Corithians.

1 Corithians: 19-24 states:
19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.





2 Corithians 11:19-24 states:

19For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

20For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

21I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

22Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.





Neither of those talks about dont go near a woman on her period.

[99hatch]

Highlights from Penn and Teller:
- Genesis chap 1&2: There are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORIES on Adam and Eve. In the first chapter, God creates Adam and Eve AT THE SAME TIME. In the second chapter, he creates Adam, starts creating animals and plants on the Earth, THEN creates Eve out of Adams rib. Which one happened?

Its not that they are completely different. Genesis 1 is more of a Outline of what happened where Genesis 2 is more detail, as it stats in Gensis 2:4: 4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

Then goes further into explaining that Even was made from one of Adams Ribs. So its not that they are any different. Also in Genesis 1 it states

7 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

So it obviously states that he made man in his own image, then talks about creating a female. So i dont see how the stories are completely different. Just shortened.