Originally Posted by metalman
you oversimply a lot.
and maybe tradition means something to us. And i thought following blindly along was the point of religion in general. Its called faith, and its something i have in my religion.
Do your own thing and stop dumping on other religions, i won't try and convert you, so you don't do the same to me.
I really don't understand why or how this turned into ****ting on other religions you deem as inferior to your own.
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Dont confuse facts with 'oversimplification'.
Youre way off track. I am not 'dumping' on you, nor do I feel others 'inferior'...I am simply pointing out FACTS about catholic tradition (that also apply to many other 'traditions')
I am not questioning the sincerity of catholics.
The context here is so called christian church doctrines often contradict the Bible they claim to follow. That is TRUE. Muslims have the same issue with extremist 'churches' that claim to follow the Koran but who violate its principles with their own man made substitutes.
I understand full well how important tradition is to the vatican. Tradition is revered much more then TRUTH, the teachings of the Bible, the words of Christ, or anything else. That is acknowleged by 'saints' within the church. The traditions of men, the words of sinful men are revered more then most anything. As an American I defend your right to ANY religion or 'faith' you wish to hold. Any! You can worship a billygoats nutsack if you want. Just dont claim that 'faith' and 'tradition' as Biblical when its not.
The cornerstones of catholic tradition are the mass, and confession. Both are man made rituals. Both are blasphemy by Biblical definition and condemned by the Bible...as practiced by the church. One is a pagan ritual with names changed to sound 'christian'. The other is a dark ages concept developed to control and keep within subjection the parishoner.
Following blindly along is not Biblical faith by definition or by any means....its human uninformed/ignorance in action. The Bible commands that one "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth...NOT follow blindly the words and made up teachings of men.
Let's not forget about The Apocrypha.
Dont confuse facts with 'oversimplification'.
Youre way off track. I am not 'dumping' on you, nor do I feel others 'inferior'...I am simply pointing out FACTS about catholic tradition (that also apply to many other 'traditions')
I am not questioning the sincerity of catholics.
The context here is so called christian church doctrines often contradict the Bible they claim to follow. That is TRUE. Muslims have the same issue with extremist 'churches' that claim to follow the Koran but who violate its principles with their own man made substitutes.
I understand full well how important tradition is to the vatican. Tradition is revered much more then TRUTH, the teachings of the Bible, the words of Christ, or anything else. That is acknowleged by 'saints' within the church. The traditions of men, the words of sinful men are revered more then most anything. As an American I defend your right to ANY religion or 'faith' you wish to hold. Any! You can worship a billygoats nutsack if you want. Just dont claim that 'faith' and 'tradition' as Biblical when its not.
The cornerstones of catholic tradition are the mass, and confession. Both are man made rituals. Both are blasphemy by Biblical definition and condemned by the Bible...as practiced by the church. One is a pagan ritual with names changed to sound 'christian'. The other is a dark ages concept developed to control and keep within subjection the parishoner.
Following blindly along is not Biblical faith by definition or by any means....its human uninformed/ignorance in action. The Bible commands that one "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth...NOT follow blindly the words and made up teachings of men.
Everything about your church no matter what your christian denomination is going to have man's hands on it and will have been changed and warped over the years as to how they see fit.
How can you look at Methodists or Baptists as having a more pure or clear cut vision of how Christianity is when they take their interpretation from a Bible that THEY SAY has been warped by the church THEY BROKE FROM.
Do you understand what i'm saying? if you are seperating yourselves from a church that you think is hiding things, then you are interpretting what is in the version of the Bible that if you want to believe in the theory that it was rewritten back in the 1000's-1200's and so on to fit their beliefs.
No one has the original Bible, and even the original Bible was written by men so its going to have our perogative and bias in it, people aren't perfect. If God or Jesus had written in it then it would have been a different story, but we have to take it for what it is.
I dunno, i'm very into tradition and I like it for that, and i feel that no religion has it completely correct and i feel as if it is ignornat to think that you do when there are so many options out there and you have so little knowledge of the lineage of them.
I don't look down on other religions, I feel as if it means that much to you and you are sincere person then things will work out in the end.
>>>I have a hard time believing that God would damn the 67+% (i believe thats the number) of the world that is not Christian and have and never will be exposed to it their entire life. Some people are born into areas where there religion is all they know and i think thats okay.
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First, I dont have a church. I dont belong to one.
Second, there is no earthly denomiation (or affiliation) that will "save" you from ultimate destruction. Period.
But, real Christians already know this. The Bible is very clear on that.
I dont look at Methodists or Baptists as having 'pure' vision. They too have inflicted themselves with non Biblical teachings and nonsense that they pass off as "biblical", some of it borrowed straight from roman catholic nonsense and dogma....some of it made up by others.How can you look at Methodists or Baptists as having a more pure or clear cut vision of how Christianity is when they take their interpretation from a Bible that THEY SAY has been warped by the church THEY BROKE FROM.
Only a student of Scripture will learn the difference.
The Bible needs no 'interpretation' placed upon it. Its a unique writing.Do you understand what i'm saying? if you are seperating yourselves from a church that you think is hiding things, then you are interpretting what is in the version of the Bible that if you want to believe in the theory that it was rewritten back in the 1000's-1200's and so on to fit their beliefs.
Its a self interpreting book. For every mystery of the Bible another part of that Book explains it. If one studys the Bible, listens to Gods voice and His Spirit they know this. But just blindly following ANY tradition will not lead to this understanding.
The 'smoke screen' and 'foggy' approach to 'christianity' and the Bible is common. Its also typically catholic. The church doesnt wish its members to UNDERSTAND Scripture...it loves to refer to Biblical teachings as 'mysteries'.....which they are NOT. Anyone who can free themselves from that nonsene CAN understand the Bible...IF they WANT to. During one era the catholic church burned Bibles and killed people found duplicating them.
Why??? To keep people IGNORANT of the REAL teachings contained therein...that would FREE them from the BS dogmas of the church.
Its stupidly ironic that any people that claim to believe in a Creator God who has omnipitent power really think that same God cannot preserve His own Word of Truth and that somewhow its beyond His control and that man has screwed it up.
If one doesnt really believe in God or His abilities to preserve the integrity of truth in written form then why bother with any of it to begin with.
Jesus said 'My sheep hear my voice...they follow Me."
Therein lies the heart of the issue.No one has the original Bible, and even the original Bible was written by men so its going to have our perogative and bias in it, people aren't perfect. If God or Jesus had written in it then it would have been a different story, but we have to take it for what it is.
If you dont believe God/Jesus 'wrote' the Bible and that its His inspired Word then your wasting your time. And, youre NOT Christian...for that is the very essence of what it means to be Christian. Following the Bible was the example set forth by Jesus Christ....which to Christians is the pattern for all.
"...faith cometh by hearing...and hearing by the Word of God"
That was kind of my point to begin with....
Catholicism is NOT Christianity.....its a man made religion that has little to do with the teachings of God or His Word.....except it borrows names, and various items and distorts it to fit its own traditions.
I would dare say I likely know more about the 'linage' of chruches and doctrines then most here....likely you included. But that matters very little....because your actions are governed by what YOU know, not what I know.
I dunno, i'm very into tradition and I like it for that, and i feel that no religion has it completely correct and i feel as if it is ignornat to think that you do when there are so many options out there and you have so little knowledge of the lineage of them.
And as you have indicated...you are "into tradition".
That makes you a good catholic....it doesnt make you a Christian.
The 'perfect' catholic is the person who will devoid themselves of any critical examination cathoic dogmas, or study of the Bible....and keep all such study & examination within the 'protection' of the church.
FYI this is the exact same concept used my Marshall Applewhite, Jim Jones, and all other cult leaders. You cant have members thinking for themselves, or with a personal connection to 'god'...they need to get all that through the church and/or its leaders.
The catholic church teaches that salvation/forgivness comes through/from the church. The Bible does NOT teach any such notion....NOR did Jesus Christ. Period!
I dont "look down" on anyone. I pity ignorant churches who claim to be Christian when they in fact are not. According to their OWN Bible and religion eternal destruction awaits them. I actually love catholics. Some of the finest Christians I know are ex-catholics. If I didnt care about them I would keep secret that which I know.I don't look down on other religions, I feel as if it means that much to you and you are sincere person then things will work out in the end.
>>>I have a hard time believing that God would damn the 67+% (i believe thats the number) of the world that is not Christian and have and never will be exposed to it their entire life. Some people are born into areas where there religion is all they know and i think thats okay.
According to the Bible, (which evidently you dont really believe in) God doesnt damn anyone. They damn themselves...and God only gives men what they desire and prove by their own actions that they desire...in the end.
The catholic view and teaching of God is HIGHLY distorted...when compared to the Bible teaching. One example of this was refered to in Ran's original post...the nonsense of 'eternal burning hell' and torture...which is not in keeping with the character of God or the teachings of the Bible. Not to mention the idolotry of worshipping Mary and other dead people...and elevating her to 'co-redemptress' for mankind. As a matter of fact according to your Bible Mary is DEAD..as in NO LONGER LIVING and WITHOUT THOUGHTS or KNOWLEGE. She cant do a thing to save anyone!! She is not and never was ANYONEs saviour. She has no part of anything that happens on the face of the earth or under the sun! She was the earthly human mother of the human Jesus...NOTHING more. She is NOT the mother of "god" the father....that nonsense is directly stolen from Babylonian pagan worship of Semarimis/Ishtar etc...'mother of the (sun)god' But who cares about truth, God, the Bible, or any of that when you have these neato made up pagan catholic traditions to follow!
Acording to that same Bible all men are judged by how much they live up to what they know of God, not their affiliation with churches and denominations.
By that same Book, one can use the name of Christ, the apostles, quote the Bible when its convenient or fits one's tradition...and all of that and it doesnt make one Christian. The very meaning of Christianity is hearing the voice of God, understanding His Word, and following His example....being Christ-like. Anything willfully less is something else....which is fine by me, just dont call it Christianity when its not. Dont give me a VW and tell me its a Lamborgini.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" - Jesus
I like how you overanaylze everything to the fullest extent to jump around so much that you might hit the nail on the head. I admit though you know more historical facts then i do, i will not argue that. But you are missing the overall concept that you have to respect that others won't agree with you when it comes to religion, you don't have the answer. NO ONE DOES
ALL Churches are man made, God did not come down and construct the churches and their traditions and beliefs. He did not put the men who preach in them in charge, they put themselves there and made that decision.
My point being is that you find something you like, that feels right, and you go with it. Whatever church you choose isn't meant to define you as a person, it is there to help you as a guideline in uniting with people of like mindedness so that with their help and experience you might find out who you are.
I don't understand how this hell and tortue you speak of is "not in the bible". I recall the book of Job where God can bring his wrath upon the highest believers at any point just to show that he is all powerful.
Even if you don't recognize the old testament, the majority of christians will regard that as part of the Bible.
So in short my point is that you can't understand it. So take it for what it is and discover it for yourself. Do not preach unto others and dismiss what they believe it. The righteous thing to do is not be negative, but otherwise be confident in yours and lead by example. If others like how you lead your life, they will question you and they will follow.
Pushing something on somebody doesn't make any one out to be a believer.
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Its quite understandble to me how someone who said this...
...would say the above. You have entered a discussion of subjects you clearly do not understand even a little. So any in depth discussion will seem confusing to you...and seem 'over analyzed'.
False. Your Bible teaches the opposite.ALL Churches are man made, God did not come down and construct the churches and their traditions and beliefs.
(unless of course youre only refering to physical buildings)
False. And this is is a really crucial one. The Bible says this...My point being is that you find something you like, that feels right, and you go with it.
" There is a way that seemeth (feels) right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death (eternal destruction)."
Again, you obviously do not know the Bible or its teachings.
Oh make no mistake...a hell IS in the Bible.I don't understand how this hell and tortue you speak of is "not in the bible". Even if you don't recognize the old testament, the majority of christians will regard that as part of the Bible.
However, the Bible does NOT teach an 'eternal burning place' where those condemned LIVE forever in torment. That is NOT a Biblical teaching.
The Bible teaches utter and permanent destruction. Only the righteous followers of Christ LIVE forever.
My advice to you is this, study the Bible more.....setting aside the nonsense you have been taught. Before entering into Biblical discussions with hard concrete ideas you had better know a little about the Book in question.
Are you an ordained minister? Or a practicing one? I'm not trying to "e-thug" on you by any means (just asking), but how are you able to give advice on something like religion? If I understand correctly, there are lots of religions out there that teach lots of different ways and views and interpretations. How do YOU know that what he has been taught is nonsense? How do you know that what you've been taught is NOT nonsense? I understand that when you enter a faith, that you're supposed to be trusting and true to that faith and all its teachings (right?) and that all other faiths are wrong. Am I right?
Hopefully that makes sense and you won't take this as a bash (I'm thinking you probably will). I personally don't get into religion too much because of all the soap opera-esque dealings that come with it. That's why I don't get into discussions about this subject. I do like to read it though and see what people think of it. Later, QD.
Last edited by quickdodge®; 07-13-2008 at 10:40 AM.
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Tradition is nice, but not if it means bending principles found in the bible just to follow tradition.
Also the idea of Christianity is to try to convert others to see there is a God, and Jesus. Not to just tell people to piss off and quit bashing your religion. You know this website, they will bash you for anything, and those who dont understand Christianity will bash it. So accept it and try to help others see your way.
Catholisim is a denomination of Christianity, not a religion by itself. In Fact all the different denominations are man made anyway. Thats why i feel some of the denominations have rules and traditions that i feel really dont add to bringing others closer to God or helping to worship God. Not to dis any denomination, but tradition is nice, but when we put it above worshiping God, thats basically like a false idol. I think this is where some people have problems with the catholic church. With all the bad press about priest's taking matters into their own hands, and having to ask the virgin mary for forgiveness as apposed to Jesus.
Last edited by 99hatch; 07-11-2008 at 12:52 PM.
You don't know the modern Catholic Church then. If you came to my church for a week and heard the sermon's you would think differently. The tradition is not held higher then the message, it is simply a guideline to how the mass is held, the message is different every week.
I think if you asked any Catholic in my church that they would tell you the exact same thing.
I don't simply feel that the acceptance of the Communion is something that will save you, and like i said i don't feel like others around would think so either. That is why the Church has our own Habitat of Humanity branch of does a lot of mission trips
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he was jesus the "nazorite"
nazareth as a town did not exist at the time of jesus
a nazorite was not someone from nazareth
house of turbo subarus...its all we'll drive
I can dig what youre saying about Christ being a "Nazarite" or a "Nazarene"
(like Biblical Sampson and others) and I know there is slight hoopla from some 'thinkers' about Nazareth supposedly not existing at the time of Christ...BUT, in honesty, the evidence, both historical and archaelogical, is NOT on that side at all.
And then of course, if you add the Biblical record theres another serious 'problem' for that theory.
Interesting comment however.
there is no map from jesus' lifetime that shows nazareth being in existance
house of turbo subarus...its all we'll drive
lol...looking for a 'paper' map is likely a waste of time.
Looking at archeological finds and written records would be more accurate.
Both indicate a small city existed at that time.
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