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Originally Posted by Kelly
BEFALL US ALL
ECCL.
i feel there's alot of truth to this. personally, i look at faith as a condition, wavering between doubt and certainty all the time. the search for truth reveals doubts (and of course sometimes further strengthens current beliefs) and through that process knowledge is gained. knowledge leads to greater understanding, and greater certainty. i think this process is part of the human condition and is natural.
in my opinion faith can be interpretted as openly as the scriptures themselves. anyone at anytime can be at different points in their spiritual journey (if you want to call it that.). the important thing is to keep educating yourself.
I have to, but you also must have faith that God is going to take care of it. And dont speak it upon yourself. I had a good friend who was very much a Christian die this spring from cancer at the age of 30. But you cant go around telling everyone you have cancer because that is speaking it upon yourself. Your basically admitting that you have it, as apposed to saying, im fine and God has healed me. Also i think being in the hospital and having all your family around you crying, waiting for you to die does not help. You must have 100% faith that God has it under control.
I agree!! this is a touchy area cause it takes faith and no doubt!! to overcome issues like this.
Like your friend (I'm sorry for your loss) that had cancer!
Its actually two different realities - its just which one do you believe and hold onto.
If you believe you have cancer and keep telling yourself you have cancer and your dieing then ...
But if you hold on to the reality that God has cured you then...
But I can't imagine how hard something like this is and these are the things that test your faith like crazy and most of us don't want to be tested like this..
"If you have the faith the size of a mustard seed (then smallest seed) then you can say to this mountain (your issue, disease, etc..) move and it shall be moved"
But God has his will and we have ours.. and thats what makes this different at times..
Its like that girl that got shot and killed because she said she believed in Jesus or the missionaries that get killed and raped for preaching the word of God.. Its not magic - you can't say Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and you'll never get hurt, killed, or avoid any bad things happening to you but, on the other hand you can say Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and be covered from all these things.. It's hard to explain but bad things do happen to saved people that have 100% faith in God!! Its part of the curse (adam and eve) and even though the blood of Jesus saves us eternally & physically - God's will, our choices, and I'm sure 1,000 other things come in to factor with issues like this..
My point of view on faith is this; I have faith that I'll get my paycheck this week. I have faith that I'll make it to work safely, I have faith that I'll still have my job come Monday morning. I have faith on realistic things, when it comes to magical events, I refuse to take it as faith.
You and me both have different views on this, which is why we both continue gaining knowledge on the subject. We both disagree, thus causing us to go out there and gain a little more. To help our beliefs and to give us a better understanding of both sides of the card.
if that's true then Ran != Agnostic
How do you figure?if that's true then Ran != Agnostic
Agnostic - A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown.
Atheist - Rejects all religious belief and denies the existence of God or supernatural power.
I don't reject the idea altogether, but I do think there is a higher power. Am I commited to that belief? Not really. I am very open to fact that there could be no God, gods, or afterlife. I just tend to sway towards the religious front.
you sir need to relearn the CORRECT AND COMPLETE definition of an agnostic.
agnostic according to MB:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
in either case, you just said in an earlier post that you do believe there IS a god, which earned you an ejection from the agnostic ballpark
It is my belief that is some sort of higher, but I'm not against being proved wrong since it hasn't be proven as fact. I judge cases both for and against religious beliefs. To be honest, there's as much going for religion as there is against it. It is my belief, or suspicion rather, that there is some form of God, higher power, afterlife or whatever. However, I am not firm on the idea and am open to adjusting my perception should the evidence present itself. My previous statements may have been misleading in my stance since it's a bit difficult to depict properly without seeming to prefer one side over the over.in either case, you just said in an earlier post that you do believe there IS a god, which earned you an ejection from the agnostic ballpark
If you wanted to, I suppose you could refer to me as "spiritual" maybe? But even then, I'm not sure.
lol, i'm just giving you grief. i understand the difficulty in truly explaining ones beliefs and being able to categorize it as i too was agnostic for a while until my beliefs/views shifted even more. now i don't categorize myself as one anymore.
I figured as such, but it's good to explain it clearly anyway.
What are you now? If you don't mind me asking.
uncategorized/uncategorizable...just still searching ya know?
The bible is a book of metaphors made to keep believers in line during life.
I have no problem with the Christians' beliefs but there are so many versions the thought of an argument over who's right and wrong is ridiculous to me.
I was raised Southern Baptist. I stopped attending church at 17. I quickly realized that church was not for me. I do not like the references to how much Jesus was in pain for me. I do not like the representation of a man being tortured for other people. It is a sick representation of a religion.
Like Easter: I went to church with my Mother when I was 16 because she loves church for some reason. There was an Easter Sunday play going on which included all the disciples and Jesus, bleeding, dying and hanging on a cross. It reminded me of how gruesome the religion actually is.
Then another church service with my dad: The preacher gets up, starts yelling and screaming about god and how he's going to strike us dead in the book of revelations. I dont believe a pure god would have done such a horrible thing.
Noah's ark: God killed a bunch of people instead of guiding them because they were too "bad".
Cain and Abel: Brother killed other brother because of jealousy.
uhh.. THE WHOLE BOOK OF REVELATIONS!!!
Judas: he's a backstabber and a liar
I am now agnostic meaning I do believe there is a higher power but I see no proof or real hard evidence to back up said higher being.
I also believe it's stupid to say cuss words and sex will make you go to hell.
To me Agnostic is not a believe. It is just a cop out for someone who cant make up their mind. Im not trying to call you out personally, im just saying that people made up Agnostic like it was a religion, but really its just saying you have no clue what you want to believe but you dont want to be called and athiest or a christian for that matter. But Agnostics truely have no belief. That is whats aggravating to me about those who claim Agnostic. If you are unsure in your beliefs i can understand that, everyone has doubt because you dont know 100%. As humans we like proof that we can see/hear/touch, and everything in life is not that way. To me as a Christian i feel that i have proof, although its not something i can necessarly see/hear/touch, but it something i can see through my spiritual side. You have to feel it.you sir need to relearn the CORRECT AND COMPLETE definition of an agnostic.
agnostic according to MB:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
in either case, you just said in an earlier post that you do believe there IS a god, which earned you an ejection from the agnostic ballpark
To me there is way too much proof in the world to prove that there is a GOD. You can look at soo much in the world and see it plainly. Think about things like, Pregnacy for instance. How could we go from a sperm to a baby in 9 months just by chances. So one day we are one cell organisims and then later down the road we are having babies through lifes cycle. Look at the eco system how everything is so incredibly complex yet all fits together perfectly. This is not just because some dot happend to explode and dust particles formed humans, etc. Even at first if you dont want to believe in Christianity and Jesus, you almost have to believe there is a God. Someone had to create this world that is so perfectly integrated.
It also says that God Grants everyman free will. If he didnt we would all be mindless robots working for him. Thats why you have the choice to belief or not to believe. There is alot of Sin in the world and alot of people in the world and in the Bible that have committed Sin. As a matter of fact everyone sins. Every believer, or non-believer sins. God said all sin is equal. There is no divisions of sin. Show me where in the bible it says if you cuss or have sex you are going straight to hell. It doesnt.
What it does say is he who does not believe in God and Jesus and whom does not ask for forgiveness of your sins will be going to hell. God is not asking you to be perfect. He is basicly just asking you to take responsiblitiy for your own actions and work toward being a better person, and lead others toward him.
Ill tell you one thing that is funny. In the world today people are offended by Christians. (not everyone of course, but there is a large %). When a Christian person comes around they think, ohh the party killer is here, or ohh he is here to tell me how im living wrong and condem my life. However if someone is a devil worshiper or doesnt believe in anything, people seem to have no problem with them. Thats quite odd when you look at the fact that true Christians are just out to help people in alot of different ways. The world has turned into such a rough place that people expect you to hurt them or try to scam them rather that help them.
I know about the whole hipocritical stamp people like to label Christians, but as God said no man is without Sin. So a Christian that sins is not a hypocryte but he is just a man (or woman). But Christians are just trying to turn their life in the right direction. No one is perfect, but you should be striving to be, in every aspect of your lives. Christian or non Christian.
Nobody ever claimed Agnosticism to be a religion. It's an identifier or classification if anything. By your argument, you say that it's okay to have doubt since we're human, but it's aggrivating that agnostics have this doubt. That's either really confusing or I'm mixing your words up.
To say that agnostics have no belief is kind of generalizing everyone who is questioning the supernatural. For a lot of people it's not a cop out. We're not Christian but we're not Atheist. We're undecided due to a lack of evidence for either argument. It's just a term to idenify our stance while we pursue answers.
I'm sure you weren't trying to be offensive, I just wanted to try and clarify.
Yeah i was thinking about it after i typed it and i didnt mean to say religion. I just mean that the term Agnostic is kinda a cop out. People have doubts and they dont want to stand on one side of the fence or the other. But i have just known some people that said they were agnostic and meant it like it was their belief system (this is what i was implying not religion sorry for that). IMO Agnostic is a belief that you have no beliefs. Know what i mean. I wasnt trying to say that people who are unsure are copping out but more the term in general. Like it says in the definitionthat was posted earlier:
agnostic according to MB:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
I read part of the first page to be hoenst, but I did have some things to add.
First off, true christains don't really refer to themselves as "christains". Now its supposed to be "followers of christ" mainly because of all the fake people and things of that nature. It seems to weed out the ones in church that just come to show their neighbors and friends they are good people but have absolutely not reason to be there.
Second, reguarding hell/external fire breathing never ending pain blah blah blah... You can find this quote EVERYWHERE... "The greatest story every told was that the devil did NOT exist". And it is spoke of many times in the bible (I dont feel like quoting, I was at a concert last night and massively hung over) that there will be plenty of misleading things/misguides and what-not. Look at the Zeitgheist movie, go ahead and actually research that crap. Its all BS. Atleast the religion part. I had a couple friends of mine research it for me. Most of the rest of the movie is dubbed over and if you do any video editing, its very poorly done.
I believe that movie to be one the misleading things spoke of in the bible, it really affected a lot of people and it ****ed with me a little bit, Ill admit. But then again, it more than reassured my faith when I found out the truth in the movie because I realized how hard someone tried to break people of it and failed horribly.
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Im a true Christian and I and all my friends call ourselves Christians. Thats the only word i know for it. But I agree, it does mean follower of Christ.
so basically that means you lie, cheat, steal, and sin like a motherfvcker in general but repent at the end of the day right?
No need to pick a fight Wayne.
quoted for OPINION, neither fact nor truth though.
lol of course agnosticism isn't a RELIGION, there ain't sh*t to follow or praise/worship genius. it is however a belief that's no more crazy than the other beliefs out there. to call it a cop out is absolutely ridiculous, since when did it become a cop out to openly admit that you aren't sure about something and may still be seeking out answers?
it's Agnostic is just a term than i can easily say Christian is just a term as well, a cop out for those who want to be assured "eternal salvation" yet who are oftentimes the most hypocritical and judgmental.
correct, but a christian that sins like every other man or woman doesn't need to be out there openly preaching like they are w/o sin, that they are somehow above their "pagan brothers".
Well Repenting for you sin is asking for forgiveness and trying to live your life for the better. I have made mistakes in the past but you have to try to never do them again. Its not like a go out on a murder spree and steal cars everyday then say well as long as i say im sorry everything is gravy. You ask for forgiveness and then you strive to never do what you did again.
Who is preaching like they are without sin? I have said several times i have made mistakes, everyone sins. EVERYONE
Except that Christianity has an entire culture of beliefs that come with it. But Agnostic is not a belief, its the lack of beliefs.
here is the definition of the word repent, just to show you. Especially check out #2.
re·pent1// [img][/img]</a>", "6"); interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high"); interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t"); interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictiona ry%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FR02%2FR0203900.mp3"); interfaceflash.write(); // ]]>
Audio Help /rɪˈpɛnt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-pent] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used without object) 1.to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often fol. by of): He repented after his thoughtless act. 2.to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent.
so let me get this straight, the christian god creates an imperfect man (even though it's in his own image) that is created w/urges and thoughts and temptations (coming from one of his own fallen angels that he lets roam about the world) to push man to sin.....yet all he has to do is ask forgiveness, but at the same time try not to do it again.....sound complex and confusing? well that's bc it is, essentially it just sounds like a huge mindfvck to me, a giant game where man are the actors and stage playing out some day time soap opera while god sits back and watches.
A LOT OF SELF PROCLAIMED CHRISTIANS PREACH AS IF THEY WERE W/O SIN, that's why there's a giant HYPOCRITE label often associated with christians.
so the BELIEF that there aren't any religious beliefs is a lack of beliefs? i do believe you just successfully duped yourself!
Actually, you're wrong right off the bat. God created a perfect man in his image. Imperfect came when Adam took the fruit of knowledge. Prior to that there was no lust, temptation, ect...
As for repentance, it's all based on sincerity. One doesn't go murder someone then go to confessional and all is clear. Sincerity of heart is everything. We can't see that, but God can and that's what makes the difference.
Just playing devil's advocate.
Last edited by Ran; 07-08-2008 at 11:22 AM.
No if you read the definition that YOU posted earlier. It states that Agnostics dont believe in either. They dont believe there is a God but then again they dont believe their isnt. They are just waiting for proof either way right? Well that is not a belief, that is merely a question. I belief that you have duped yourself!
Exactly on both accounts. Just like it says in the defintion of repent. .to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent. So you want to change your life for the better. Be sincere about it.
fair enough, but at the same time, what's w/the setup from the get go? 1) why have the tree/apple/snake there in the first place? 2) if he created a PERFECT man, then how was it that he made such an imperfect decision to take the apple? i mean is that saying that god, in all his perfectness could also stumble and make a mistake?
wtf? you clearly do not understand the definition that's been posted. just bc you can't commit to believing in the existence or nonexistence of a god doesn't mean you don't BELIEVE in your own BELIEF that you don't know.
btw, i'm certain that you don't understand the difference between BELIEF and BELIEVE.
That's my question as well. Some chalk it up to God wanting us to have free will. Not sure about that, but that's the speculation. As the story goes, Adam made his decision after being persuaded by Eve who had been deceived by Satan.
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