God vs. Science

[David88vert]

In response to David88vert's post on probability:

I hear a lot of people saying things like "The odds of all these factors coming together in such a perfect way are too remote for it to be by chance." This is not a logical argument for design for two main reasons:

1)
It is true that there are several universal constants which must be finely tuned in order for life as we know it to possible be able to exist. You can not start from an outcome and then claim it was too improbable to happen by chance. Take the lottery for example. Millions of people play, one person wins (sometimes noone wins). That winning person could say "the odds were 1 in a million I would win, it must have been divine intervention". Its true their odds of winning were incredibly minute and yet they won. Do you think that means God must have intervened?

2)
Because we are human, we believe human existence is more special than the existence of anything else. If there were a certian type of rock that could only be found in one tiny region, on one planet in the entire universe, humans wouldn't think twice because we do not think of rocks as special even if the chances of that particular rock existing are more rare than the chance of humans existing. Along these same lines, take poker. What are the odds you will get a A,K,Q,J,10 of spades? The odds are exactly the same as any other particular hand but yet we consider this a special hand and thus would be amazed if we were dealt it.

But can you win the lottery every day for the rest of your life? 1:1,000,000 odds are drastically better than 10_37th. Big difference. If ANY of the items listed went wrong, you wouldn't be typing. How many people do you know that have won every lottery that they have played?

Read about DNA sequencing. There is not way that could happen expressly by chance. Possible - Yes (anything is), Probably - No. There is a difference.

Of course, that does not mean that you can't believe it. Just know that you are taking it on faith. Again, nothing wrong with that. If everyone was the same, we would be robots. Again, you are completely entitled to your opinion and beliefs. I am not belittling that. Just be informed as to why you believe something.

[bu villain]

But can you win the lottery every day for the rest of your life? 1:1,000,000 odds are drastically better than 10_37th. Big difference. If ANY of the items listed went wrong, you wouldn't be typing. How many people do you know that have won every lottery that they have played?

Read about DNA sequencing. There is not way that could happen expressly by chance. Possible - Yes (anything is), Probably - No. There is a difference.

I am not sure where you are getting the chance of life is 1 in 10^37 (or how one could possibly even develop odds for such an event at all) or why it is a lottery that must be played continuously (isn't once enough?) But even if that were the case, if there are 10^100000 universes out there, all with unique properties, then chances are quite good one of them will have life. I don't take it on faith that there are many other universes, I take it as a fact that I don't know. To assume there is only 1 is to claim you know for sure there are not others. The point is, probability is not a good argument for intelligent design.

Of course, that does not mean that you can't believe it. Just know that you are taking it on faith. Again, nothing wrong with that. If everyone was the same, we would be robots. Again, you are completely entitled to your opinion and beliefs. I am not belittling that. Just be informed as to why you believe something.

This part is very interesting. I take the position that there is not enough evidence to claim there is intelligent design based on the information I have read. You say, you are convinced by the evidence and I can not say they are wrong to come to that conclusion. I think we both agree on that. Both our positions are based on reason (even though they differ) and thus "faith" as used in the traditional sense is not really a good term to put on either of us.

Faith in the religious sense means believing one way regardless of any evidence. You will have to speak for yourself but my "faith" as you put it, is malleable. New evidence will change it, it will constantly question it, and I will never disregard information simply because it doesn't fit with my existing belief. If there is a question to which I don't know the asnwer, my response is "I don't know" not "It is God".

Finally, thanks for the concern but don't worry I am not sensitive. I don't mind my beliefs being challenged. It will only lead me closer to truth.