Organized Religion

[The12lber]

This thread has gone through so many different arguements and discussions, thats what I love about religion. No one knows whats really true and whats all stories because no one has the proof. Everyone just has opinions. And that's really all any religion started out as, opinions on why we're here and where we go next. I don't think ANYONE has any right to put someone down because of an opinion they might hold. So what no one has proven living beings do or dont have souls. We have proven that no chemical reaction goes without some sort of product. Thus the energy in our bodies must go somewhere. I don't believe that the energy survives in a living state as much, but that you spread it amongst everything you've come in contact with in your life. The people you influenced, the knowledge you passed, the effect you had on society, it all absorbs the essence that used to be you. After your gone, your friends and family still talk about you, the people you tought things to still use you as a reference. You know how when you think about "back in the day", the stuff that makes you smile on the inside, the feeling you get thinking about relatives that passed on before you and the ways they influenced you. It's all energy passing through the air.

Actually, the "energy" our body uses to function is derived from chemical reactions in your body. When you die this stops happening in an organized fashion and your body is decomposed by bacteria. That's all there is to dying in a firm, scientific sense.

If you're implying we have some kind of metaphysical spiritual energy, that has no base in fact or link to chemistry, so I'm not sure whats up with the relationship you would be trying to establish.

I realize you think this is all opinions and everyone is neither right nor wrong, but when you try to link your opinion with bad science (pseudoscience and scientific half truths seem to be favorites of the religious) or bad logic, you are indeed wrong.

[Reaper]

After skimming through was everyone has said...Ill make this short.

I consider myself a Christian. I was raised in a fairly religious household, and I personally believe that Ive fallen away from MY faith. Everyone is entitled to there own belief's and opinions, which is why I respect anyones thoughts on whether or not there is a God, or not. Which is why people who call themselves Christians but are ignorant to others beliefs or say they are dead wrong or they are going to hell because of what they think/say pisses me off to no end. I have no toleration for ignorance..


Now, I fully believe that alot of things in the Quaran(spelling?) Torah and Bible were all miss-translated @ somepoint. Do I think it makes THAT big of a difference yes and no...because obviously translation from one language to another can make everything completely different, but historically according artifacts/scripture/etc..I think its overall on point.

But things @ somepoint had to misconstrued...its almost Inevitable.

[integra82786]

im just trying to emphasize that even science can be self contradicting, and has been corrected many times in the past. who knows what we might discover in the years to come.

[The12lber]

im just trying to emphasize that even science can be self contradicting, and has been corrected many times in the past. who knows what we might discover in the years to come.

Science isn't self contradicting because when something is found to be untrue it is amended.

[black]

im just trying to emphasize that even science can be self contradicting, and has been corrected many times in the past. who knows what we might discover in the years to come.

The only thing anyone will discover is the truth. The truth that all the storys that were told has no true meaning but a guide to a life of nothing but confusion. With years will come a whole new way life is lived and how we will move forward from all the fairy tails.

[97ITR86]

Religion is such an age old argument that will never be settled. Everyone has a preference and that is what they feel best fits there lifestyle and they can fully understand the meanings behind it. I practice buddhism and was raised in a methodist family. I didn't understand the ways of the bible and felt more comfortable and related better to buddhist believes. No man can ever say his religion is better than another because there is no better or worse choice. As long as you make your choice and live by your religions believes then you have mad the best choice.

Christians kill me with the whole if you don't believe the bible then you will burn in hell. In all reality you have a better change of burning in hell for passing judgement on the way i decide to live my life. You can't knock a religion or someones lack of religious preference because it is a decision one has to make in life. It is really something people should think about before they make dumb comments.

[black]

To me its funny how every religion thinks they're right, how many do we have? Like over 20! Yet they all think their religion is the only one who is true and should be followed. The bible in itself is a book that takes alot of mentality and maturity to truly understand it's true meaning. In the end if you're a good person, thats all that really matters.

[The12lber]

To me its funny how every religion thinks they're right, how many do we have? Like over 20! Yet they all think their religion is the only one who is true and should be followed. The bible in itself is a book that takes alot of mentality and maturity to truly understand it's true meaning. In the end if you're a good person, thats all that really matters.

You didn't think very hard when you put 20 down I hope.

[black]

You didn't think very hard when you put 20 down I hope.

Absolutely not, but some people don't really know the exact number so I just decided to throw a random number out there to give them an idea.

[tko]

no more opinions?

[Hulud]

i guess not... lol

[Mayniac]

Everything Maniac and black said, was posted by me. But yes, I guess this thread is done. Didn't turnout the way I thought it would, fun while it lasted though.

[metalman]

We use to have a good christian guy on here who use to havse good conversation anout different religion with many of us. I wonder if he is still around. I havent seen him post in a very long time - Metal?(IA name)

metalman, funny thing is after ive talked with him in person multiple times, i dont think hes not religious, hes just knowledgable (sp?). but i could be wrong

First, thank you AtifSajid for remembering some of the past discussion and recalling it as 'good conversation'.
I dont mind intelligent disagreement, I even welcome and appreciate it as a springboard to greater personal understanding, but often these topics only lead to retarded responses and/flame offs. I appreciate your responses being other then that!

Secondly, Hulud has stated a fairly decent description of who/what I am. I belong to no organized religion. I am not here to 'covert' anyone to any church...just get people to study and think for themselves...if thats possible. Much of my commentary has been directed at so called Christians from their own Book...rather then 'others'. That being said, my beliefs could be described as "christian" in the sense that they often coincide with Biblical teachings.
I have spent a considerable time studying that book from a historic, scientific, and logical perspective, comparing it to what I have observed in life...so I have some knowlege of it. I do believe in Creation and a Creator because scientifically and logically that's what makes the most sense to me and what I see the most physical evidence for.

There are many teachings and principles in the Bible that I find no solid argument against...at least an argument that makes sense....there's always argument.

My life is busy enough currently that I have not the time needed to intelligently discuss religion here. And its my old fogie opinion that if I have no time to discuss something intelligently then I say nothing much.

As for the topic...organized religion...in general I believe organized religions to be mostly a complete failure. The reason is that the organizations are of men, controlled and designed of men, and not controlled by a God or Creator...which is mans fault, not God's. In every religion there are those that see things the way they want it, rather then how it actually is. The most obvious examples are Christian, Jewish, & Muslim extremists who persecute and kill people they disagree with. No religion is without blemish in this department. Much is made about Muslim extremists and given the current world situation and happenings thats understandable...but if one is completely and historically honest, the largest quantity of crimes against humanity have been perpetrated by Catholic/Christian entities. Of course, in reality no action excuses the other.

If one investigates the real underlying principles of some religions one will find that SELF, the works of man, are the real center of the focus, even if disguised with rituals and other 'religious' hype. I find such religions mostly worthless and nothing more then mankind admiring himself....but I will not name them here, so dont ask! LOL

Its true that many follow only traditions and the words of pastors, ministers, teachers, priests, gurus, 'holy men' and the like...without much honest personal study, understanding, or growth. That being said, there are "God-like" decent people in every religion, who actually LIVE the principles.

On a side note...
As for science and religion being exact opposites...thats hardly the case. Much (not all) of mankinds science, especially evolutionary science, violates its own basic principles and takes huge amounts of faith to believe. In fact, many scientists have way more faith in unsubstantiated nonsense and theories then Christians, Jews, or Muslims have in their religions.

Okay...back to my cars and parts...I'll leave the serious stuff to you folks. Have fun!

[Maki]

Some one earlier said something about how religions think they are the best and all others are not right. Well i personally am buddhist and some of the teachings say to keep an open mind to others beliefs and opinions. I used to be agnostic until i finnally found something that i could agree with. i have a hard time with one big omnipitant being for some reason. i love religion debates because it gives insight to other peoples state of mind although it is a discussion that will never be finished. I think most religions have been corrupted by man and have alomost lost sight of thier true intensions. most major religions have the same basics but just different stories to back them up. and most religions are left open to interpretation. they have a few set rules but the rest are guidlines. its just sad to see the world fight over who is right and who is wrong when everyonoe is wrong once you resort to violence and anger. i mean honestly, when has anger solved anything in this world.... never........... break time

[bu villain]

On a side note...
As for science and religion being exact opposites...thats hardly the case. Much (not all) of mankinds science, especially evolutionary science, violates its own basic principles and takes huge amounts of faith to believe. In fact, many scientists have way more faith in unsubstantiated nonsense and theories then Christians, Jews, or Muslims have in their religions.

Normally, I don't bother too much with these kinda of discussions but since you seem like a rational person who won't take a logical discussion personally... I'm curious, in what way does evolutionary theory violate the principles of science? I've only heard a handful of arguments (e.g., irreducible complexity) against the "theory of evolution" (there is no law of evolution). And none of them can not be intelligently responded to.

Secondly, why does it take a lot of faith to believe in it? It certainly doesn't take more faith than believing in an all knowing, all powerful being who for some reason gives a **** about whether or not you lie to someone. There is a huge amount of evidence supporting evolutionary theory so I would tend to think it takes very little faith to believe in it. I'm not going to post links here because if you go to any bookstore you can easily find many books on the subject.

Once again, this is not an attack on anyone.

[metalman]

I'm curious, in what way does evolutionary theory violate the principles of science?

I will give one example, although there are others....
A cornerstone of evolutionary earth science relates to radio carbon dating. Simply put, carbon dating isnt accurate. Not even a little. Objects with a known extreme short age can be carbon dated to thousands, even tens of thousands of years old. Using methods that have already been proven as highly inaccurate and unreliable, (and thats being kind) as definitive measuring tools violates any reasonable principle of true science.

Secondly, why does it take a lot of faith to believe in it? .

The likelyhood of every minut interacting lifeform within our earth and perfectly balanced intricate structure therein coming into existence from nothing, merely by chance, over time is FAR LESS then the likelyhood of assembling a complex Rolex time piece by putting all the loose already existing parts in a cardboard box and shaking them until they assemble themselves into a precision functioning timepiece....and that possibility is around zero.
Make no mistake..evolutionary belief takes immense faith....or ignorance...that works too. And by ignorance I mean being uninformed, not stupid. Dont want anyone to think I am attacking them.

[bu villain]

I will give one example, although there are others....
A cornerstone of evolutionary earth science relates to radio carbon dating. Simply put, carbon dating isnt accurate. Not even a little. Objects with a known extreme short age can be carbon dated to thousands, even tens of thousands of years old. Using methods that have already been proven as highly inaccurate and unreliable, (and thats being kind) as definitive measuring tools violates any reasonable principle of true science.

Any idea why carbon dating is still being consistantly used for dating everything if it is so worthless? I found many articles talking about how it can be innacurate if certain things are not taken into account but nothing to say that it is not valid. Do you know of any references to where I can hear your side (please only reputable sources e.g. scientific journals, university publishings etc.) heres a couple talking about its possible innacuracies when improperly performed but they still say it is quite valid.

http://www.et.byu.edu/~adw45/Carbon%20Dating.htm
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1977Natur.270...25P

The likelyhood of every minut interacting lifeform within our earth and perfectly balanced intricate structure therein coming into existence from nothing, merely by chance, over time is FAR LESS then the likelyhood of assembling a complex Rolex time piece by putting all the loose already existing parts in a cardboard box and shaking them until they assemble themselves into a precision functioning timepiece....and that possibility is around zero.
Make no mistake..evolutionary belief takes immense faith....or ignorance...that works too. And by ignorance I mean being uninformed, not stupid. Dont want anyone to think I am attacking them.

I find this to be a very flawed argument. Evolution depends greatly on the concept of natural selection which is the exact opposite of "chance". Natural selection says the "best" traits are passed on, not that random traits are passed on. In your rolex box thought experiment you are effectively disregarding natural selection, the cornerstone of evolution.

Also, you say that it is very unlikely that everything evolved so perfectly balanced but that is not true. It is backwards reasoning to take the end product and say that it is very unlikely given the start. If you are playing poker and you get a 5 of clubs, eight of diamonds, jack of diamonds, 2 of hearts, and 10 of clubs you could say "Wow the odds of me getting those exact five cards was over 1 in 3 hundred million" and you could play poker the rest of your life and maybe never get that hand again but it doesn't mean that the hand was "designed".


Finally, we can both agree that evolution is still a theory but as far as I know, there is no other theory out there with more evidence. Do you know of one?