Final answer to the airplane on a long treadmill problem ...

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 09:57 PM

The plane will fly and here is why...

Original problem:
There is treadmill and it is as long as a runway. The plane is sitting on the treadmill. The wheels on the plane are free-rolling. The treadmill will roll, in reverse, to match the exact speed of the plane. For example, if the plane is doing 100knots, then the treadmill will sping at 100knots in reverse. Will the plane take off?

Here is a simple experiment that I just thought up to try at home for those few left that do not believe...

Do this:

Take a matchbox car and put it on a piece of paper. Now, yank the piece of paper from under the car. Does the car move backwards? Not really if at all. What little bit is attributed to the friction in the wheel bearings.Now, imagine that the car had jet engines/packs on it and it was being pushed forward already via those engines. The paper still wouldn't do shit to stop the forward motion as the wheels roll freely.

Better yet, do this:

ROLL a matchbox car along the ground/table and when it gets over the paper (while it is still moving forward), yank the paper. Does it stop the car from going forward? I mean, you will yank the paper at a MUCH faster speed than the car is moving forward. Perhaps 10 to 20x faster. The car will STILL continue to move forward even though you yanked the paper (like a treadmill would do).

That is a real world example of why the plane would take off given a treadmill that was a long as a typical runway. [/discussion about this]

**Julio** · 05-24-2006, 09:58 PM

lol.. good stuff.. that was a good thread..

**5thgcelica** · 05-24-2006, 10:01 PM

sounds like i need to find that thread and do some laughing...haha.

**Bishop** · 05-24-2006, 10:02 PM

damn, guess i missed the thread?

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 10:03 PM

There, I added in the original question/problem in italics.

**5thgcelica** · 05-24-2006, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Black Paper Diary

damn, guess i missed the thread?

dude. we miss everything now that we live at LTC lol.

**Brady** · 05-24-2006, 10:04 PM

way to bring the OT to the whore's lounge...btw i have you a new list the pathfinders.

**5thgcelica** · 05-24-2006, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ruiner

There, I added in the original question/problem in italics.

thanks ruiner

**Bishop** · 05-24-2006, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by 5thgcelica

dude. we miss everything now that we live at LTC lol.

lol werd

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Brady

way to bring the OT to the whore's lounge...btw i have you a new list the pathfinders.

Cool. Now I just need to sell the Porsche...

**gijoe0720** · 05-24-2006, 10:07 PM

And what made you just all of a sudden think of this? That thread was posted a long time ago

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by gijoe0720

And what made you just all of a sudden think of this? That thread was posted a long time ago

Same thread on another board... I got tired of explaining it to the people who cannot understand.

**5thgcelica** · 05-24-2006, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Ruiner

Cool. Now I just need to sell the Porsche...

what? you're joking right?

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by 5thgcelica

what? you're joking right?

No, not at all...

**5thgcelica** · 05-24-2006, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ruiner

No, not at all...

but why, its so gorgeous

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by 5thgcelica

but why, its so gorgeous

Cars come and go... I'll get another one, no worries.

**HyPer50** · 05-24-2006, 10:30 PM

The things rich people do in all there free time.....

**Big Baller** · 05-24-2006, 10:33 PM

Just like I said in the first thread, the wheel speed has absolutely no relevance at all.

**Hektik** · 05-24-2006, 10:35 PM

I dont beleive the plane will fly. Because an aircraft needs a certain amount of wind underneath its wings to help push up on it. The jets or propellers alone will not be able to lift unless there is some sort of up ward force. This is the same reason why aircraft carriers have to reach a certain speed in knots in the ocean to create enough wind at the bow of the ship to force the jets up. So if an aircraft is on a treadmill it is really not moving forward anymore than the treadmill is moving in reverse in wich case would not create the sufficient amount of force to lift the aircraft. The wheels will be spinning but the aircraft is in all reality sitting in one position.
Just my opinion.

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Hektik

I dont beleive the plane will fly. Because an aircraft needs a certain amount of wind underneath its wings to help push up on it. The jets or propellers alone will not be able to lift unless there is some sort of up ward force. This is the same reason why aircraft carriers have to reach a certain speed in knots in the ocean to create enough wind at the bow of the ship to force the jets up. So if an aircraft is on a treadmill it is really not moving forward anymore than the treadmill is moving in reverse in wich case would not create the sufficient amount of force to lift the aircraft. The wheels will be spinning but the aircraft is in all reality sitting in one position.
Just my opinion.

Huh? Imagine that the treadmill is as long as a normal runway.

It will travel down the treadmill while picking up speed.

**Hektik** · 05-24-2006, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Ruiner

Huh? Imagine that the treadmill is as long as a normal runway.

It will travel down the treadmill while picking up speed.

If the treadmill is moving in reverse at the same speed as the wheels of the plane are moving forward the aircraft will not move forward.. If a person jumps on a treadmill and runs at 15 miles an hour and the treadmill is moving in reverse at 15 miles an hour and there is another person running at 15 miles an hour on solid ground will the person on the treadmill keep up with the person on solid ground?

**5thgcelica** · 05-24-2006, 10:44 PM

its not the wheels that propel the plane... the jet engines do. they push air. the wheels are tehre just to make it not have friction on the ground.

**Hektik** · 05-24-2006, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by 5thgcelica

its not the wheels that propel the plane... the jet engines do. they push air. the wheels are tehre just to make it not have friction on the ground.

correct but the engines only propelle the jet forward creating an upforce on the wings wich are what lifts the jet. just like when u drive in the car and hold ur hand out of the window the higher the speed the harder it is to lower ur hand becasue the forward thrust is what is causing ur hand to lift same thing with a jet the engines push forwrd and the wings lift.

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Hektik

correct but the engines only propelle the jet forward creating an upforce on the wings wich are what lifts the jet. just like when u drive in the car and hold ur hand out of the window the higher the speed the harder it is to lower ur hand becasue the forward thrust is what is causing ur hand to lift same thing with a jet the engines push forwrd and the wings lift.

Yes, we all know what causes lift. What I am showing IA.com is that the treadmill moving backwards WILL NOT affect the forward movement of the plane.

**fight club** · 05-24-2006, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Hektik

correct but the engines only propelle the jet forward creating an upforce on the wings wich are what lifts the jet. just like when u drive in the car and hold ur hand out of the window the higher the speed the harder it is to lower ur hand becasue the forward thrust is what is causing ur hand to lift same thing with a jet the engines push forwrd and the wings lift.

heres you a good visual. the automatic walkways at the airport. we stand next to each other and one is lined to run on the sidewalk and im running next to it. the speed you are moving is the speed of the sidewalk, but you're running in the wrong direction. you are saying that while i would reach the end, you would not move.

**Flip** · 05-24-2006, 10:56 PM

Well stated

**Hektik** · 05-24-2006, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ruiner

Yes, we all know what causes lift. What I am showing IA.com is that the treadmill moving backwards WILL NOT affect the forward movement of the plane.

If the treadmill is moving backwards at the same speed as the plane is moving forward how will the plane actually move forward. when u run on a treadmill no matter how fast u are running as long as u are running at the same speed as the treadmill u stand in one place right.

**Hektik** · 05-24-2006, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by cherry kool aid

heres you a good visual. the automatic walkways at the airport. we stand next to each other and one is lined to run on the sidewalk and im running next to it. the speed you are moving is the speed of the sidewalk, but you're running in the wrong direction. you are saying that while i would reach the end, you would not move.

Ok so what were saying is that the treadmill is going FORWARD and Im going FORWARD both of us at the same speed yes this will double my speed. but if im going------> that way and the treadmill is going <------ that way the 2 speeds will cancel each other out . now if what ruiner is talking about the treadmill and the plane both going the same way then yes I can understand the plane taking of but if they are going in different directions the no the plane will not fly.

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Hektik

If the treadmill is moving backwards at the same speed as the plane is moving forward how will the plane actually move forward. when u run on a treadmill no matter how fast u are running as long as u are running at the same speed as the treadmill u stand in one place right.

Umm, the engines will push it forward. The engines act on the air, not the ground. The wheels spin freely and have NO power to them. You understand this, correct? It's the same as if you are on a treadmill with roller skates and you strap on a jetpack to push you forward.

Better yet, stand on a treadmill and have a friend pull you with a rope. That rope = jet engines

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Hektik

Ok so what were saying is that the treadmill is going FORWARD and Im going FORWARD both of us at the same speed yes this will double my speed. but if im going------> that way and the treadmill is going <------ that way the 2 speeds will cancel each other out . now if what ruiner is talking about the treadmill and the plane both going the same way then yes I can understand the plane taking of but if they are going in different directions the no the plane will not fly.

Care to make a wager on this? I am confident in my stance. How confident are you in yours? Put your money where your mouth is.

I'll let you read it one more time:

Original problem:
There is treadmill and it is as long as a runway. The plane is sitting on the treadmill. The wheels on the plane are free-rolling. The treadmill will roll, in reverse, to match the exact speed of the plane. For example, if the plane is doing 100knots, then the treadmill will spin at 100knots in reverse. As the plane increases speed, so will the treadmill. Will the plane take off

**Big Baller** · 05-24-2006, 11:16 PM

Fucking damn it people, the wheel speed has absolutely no relevance at all.

**HyPer50** · 05-24-2006, 11:18 PM

Grab some of your rich friends Ruiner and lets make this happen... IA Mythbusters to the rescue.

**Hektik** · 05-24-2006, 11:22 PM

Theres no reason for me to make a wager Im completely confident on my stance but at the same time I see no reason to make this a bet plus im not a gambling man naver have been never will be. only reason im making this argument is because u asked for a discussion. and that is all it is. all im saying wether u accept it or not is that there needs to be lift u already stated that u aswell as all of IA.com know what lift is well how will there be lift if there is no actuall forward movement. please explain to make as to how there is a forward movement on a treadmill. when the treadmill is moving at 100knots to match the speed of the aircraft at 100 knots. Is the plane actually moving forward no. ok lets put it this way lets reuse the previous example ur at the airport on oje of those long escalator belts that are flat ok and u are walking in the opposite direction that the belt is moving but at the same speed you WILL stand in one single location now if u were to pick up speed and the belt stayed at the same speed then u would move but as long as u and the belt are at the same speed u will stay put.

**Hektik** · 05-24-2006, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Big Baller

Fucking damn it people, the wheel speed has absolutely no relevance at all.

thats excatly what im saying the wyheels can spin at 100knots all day but that will not lift the jet.

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Hektik

Theres no reason for me to make a wager Im completely confident on my stance but at the same time I see no reason to make this a bet plus im not a gambling man naver have been never will be. only reason im making this argument is because u asked for a discussion. and that is all it is. all im saying wether u accept it or not is that there needs to be lift u already stated that u aswell as all of IA.com know what lift is well how will there be lift if there is no actuall forward movement. please explain to make as to how there is a forward movement on a treadmill. when the treadmill is moving at 100knots to match the speed of the aircraft at 100 knots. Is the plane actually moving forward no. ok lets put it this way lets reuse the previous example ur at the airport on oje of those long escalator belts that are flat ok and u are walking in the opposite direction that the belt is moving but at the same speed you WILL stand in one single location now if u were to pick up speed and the belt stayed at the same speed then u would move but as long as u and the belt are at the same speed u will stay put.

Shit, man, you are dense. Do you understand that there is NO power going to the wheels of a plane. NONE. The wheels DO NOT push the plane forward. The wheels spin freely. Knowing that, what is to stop the plane from moving forward? Remember, the wheels spin freely.

As for not betting, why not? It isn't gambling if you are 100% confident in your answer now is it? Nope. Bet me. Be a man and put your money where your mouth is...

**Hektik** · 05-24-2006, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Ruiner

Shit, man, you are dense. Do you understand that there is NO power going to the wheels of a plane. NONE. The wheels DO NOT push the plane forward. The wheels spin freely. Knowing that, what is to stop the plane from moving forward? Remember, the wheels spin freely.

As for not betting, why not? It isn't gambling if you are 100% confident in your answer now is it? Nope. Bet me. Be a man and put your money where your mouth is...

Listen I spent the last four years of my life around jets I am 100% sure that the jet , aircraft or plane will not fly. You are correct in saying that there is NO power going to the wheels of a jet. But if the the AC is on a treadmill it will not take of because it will not move forward fast enough, IF at all, to create lift. Also I dont need to make a bet to prove Im a man Im sorry you feel that you have to. Im not trying to make this more than it is only stating what I know and what I have seen. An F/A18 fighter hornet can be propelled of an ircraft carrier on a catapult from 0-200 mph in under 3 seconds BUT unless the carrier is moving forward fast enough to create the upward wind wich will in turn create LIFT under the jets wings the jet will fall in the ocean. there for u can run a plane on a treadmill all day at 100 knots it will not fly becasue there is NO wind under its wings.......

**Ruiner** · 05-24-2006, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Hektik

Listen I spent the last four years of my life around jets I am 100% sure that the jet , aircraft or plane will not fly. You are correct in saying that there is NO power going to the wheels of a jet. But if the the AC is on a treadmill it will not take of because it will not move forward fast enough, IF at all, to create lift. Also I dont need to make a bet to prove Im a man Im sorry you feel that you have to. Im not trying to make this more than it is only stating what I know and what I have seen. An F/A18 fighter hornet can be propelled of an ircraft carrier on a catapult from 0-200 mph in under 3 seconds BUT unless the carrier is moving forward fast enough to create the upward wind wich will in turn create LIFT under the jets wings the jet will fall in the ocean. there for u can run a plane on a treadmill all day at 100 knots it will not fly becasue there is NO wind under its wings.......

The treadmill is as long as a runway!

Bet me! Please, please bet me!

**Hektik** · 05-25-2006, 12:00 AM

what does the length of the treadmill have to do with anything if it is going to stay in one spot?

**Hektik** · 05-25-2006, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Ruiner

Bet me! Please, please bet me!

o and no

**fight club** · 05-25-2006, 12:07 AM

so according to your logic, if i try to run the opposite way on the moving sidewalk at an airport and im running at the same speed its rotating, i wont move?

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